With bafflement upon bafflement!

Redemptionsong said:

Jesus rightly said that 'scripture cannot be broken', and the Christian understanding provides a coherent and consistent explanation for sin and redemption. Torah Jews, in refusing to acknowledge the righteousness of God in Christ, have, lMO, rejected the salvation sent into their midst! Does this matter? Well, not if your only concerns are for this world and this life, which appears to be the substance of your religion. But making a treasure out of the things that are impermanent is no different to finding 'fool's gold'.

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Opinion, not scripture.

Redemptionsong said:

The narrative of the Exodus can be viewed purely from an earthly perspective, but the spiritual viewpoint shows Moses, representing the Law, only able to take the lsraelites to the border of the Promised Land. It is Joshua who is given the authority to lead the Israelites into the Promised Land. Likewise, it is Jesus Christ who provides the spiritual dimension to an earthly religion.

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Moses got angry and it had consequences. The spiritual dimension of the story probes this idea.

Redemptionsong said:

The narrative of the Exodus can be viewed purely from an earthly perspective, but the spiritual viewpoint shows Moses, representing the Law, only able to take the lsraelites to the border of the Promised Land. It is Joshua who is given the authority to lead the Israelites into the Promised Land. Likewise, it is Jesus Christ who provides the spiritual dimension to an earthly religion.

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The verse says "truly true you will be able to do all these things and greater". Jesus raised the dead. Unless Christians are raising the dead, the verse in John is false.

Gathering as a large group is not a supernatural miracle. There are huge gatherings of Jews each year for Purim, Succot, and Lag B'omer. There are huge gatherings of Muslims for Ramadan. This simply doesn't cut it.

The promise made in John 14:12 is not truly true.

Redemptionsong said:

You might also think that miracles and healings only occurred at the hands of Jesus. I know, however, that this is not true. Amongst Christians who accept the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the miracles and healings of Christ continue. They continued with the apostles, and still continue today, providing evidence that Jesus is, indeed, alive.

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Miracles and healings have happened in Judaism too. It's not dependent on Jesus. And the miracles from Christians are not GREATER than the miracles described in the Gospels. John 14:12 is not truly true.

Redemptionsong said:

So, what your numerous claims to 'victory' amount to is a failure to recognise the spiritual dimensions to your religion. So grounded are you in the earthly life that you fail to see the working of a parable in scripture. This does not make the earthly story wrong, it simply ignores the significance of having the earthly story. The purpose of the temporal life is to seek and find the eternal treasures of God.

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Your spiritual interpretation requires ignoring verses, skipping words, reading the text backwards, numerous assumptions. In short, it's not scriptural. Judaism probes the depths of these earthly stories. You're not aware, and you assume Christianity is the only way. Assumptions and opinions aren't scripture.

@Redemptionsong ,

The topic you've chosen to debate is whether or not John 14:12 is true.

Didn't Jesus raise the dead? Are Christians able to raise the dead? Is the promise "truly true"? True when it was said, true forever?

Eta:. Confirmed. John 11 Jesus raises the dead, John 14 he makes the false promise.

dybmh said:

The verse says "truly true you will be able to do all these things and greater". Jesus raised the dead. Unless Christians are raising the dead, the verse in John is false.

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Christians are raising the dead, just as they did in the early Church.
Peter raised Tabitha. Acts 9:40.
Paul raised a dead man who had fallen from a window in Troas. Acts 20:7-12.
In more recent times there have been similar testimonies from the likes of Smith Wigglesworth and other Pentecostalists.

From the very start, the 'body of Christ' was gifted with the power to do the works of Christ.

The reason that healings and miracles are 'part and parcel' of the Christian movement is because the Holy Spirit dwells within the temple built by God. Jesus Christ is the cornerstone.

If 'greater works' are measured in quantity rather than quality, then we have certainly seen a fulfilment of Jesus' words.

dybmh said:

@Redemptionsong ,

The topic you've chosen to debate is whether or not John 14:12 is true.

Didn't Jesus raise the dead? Are Christians able to raise the dead? Is the promise "truly true"? True when it was said, true forever?

Eta:. Confirmed. John 11 Jesus raises the dead, John 14 he makes the false promise.

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Let me ask you a question. Why do you think Jesus quoted the first line of Psalm 22, whilst dying on the cross?

Redemptionsong said:

Christians are raising the dead, just as they did in the early Church.
Peter raised Tabitha. Acts 9:40.
Paul raised a dead man who had fallen from a window in Troas. Acts 20:7-12.
In more recent times there have been similar testimonies from the likes of Smith Wigglesworth and other Pentecostalists.

From the very start, the 'body of Christ' was gifted with the power to do the works of Christ.

The reason that healings and miracles are 'part and parcel' of the Christian movement is because the Holy Spirit dwells within the temple built by God. Jesus Christ is the cornerstone.

If 'greater works' are measured in quantity rather than quality, then we have certainly seen a fulfilment of Jesus' words.

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Good. Thank you. You won't hear me object to that verse anymore.

Redemptionsong said:

Let me ask you a question. Why do you think Jesus quoted the first line of Psalm 22, whilst dying on the cross?

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Something went wrong. He had been given a plan, he followed the plan, but it wasn't working. He realized this, and perceived the horde collecting around him in anticipation of their next meal and he needed to be saved himself.

( assuming the story is true of course )

@Redemptionsong ,

So, knowing about Wigglesworth removes 3 from the tally of cases of spiritual halluciantions. I was depending on John 14:12 for 3 of those. Not knowing about Wigglesworth and the pentacostals though isn't really showing spiritual blindness on my part. Hopefully you agree. I just didn't know those stories. That means we're still at 2 cases of spiritual blindness vs. 111 cases of spiritual hallucination ( aka drunk on Jesus ).

Are you finished debating? Maybe you're tired? I understand. But you still have not been able to show that Jewish people are currently spiritually blind. Conversely many many examples have been brought where scripture needs to be ignored, warped, or added to inorder to justify the claim.

dybmh said:

@Redemptionsong ,

So, knowing about Wigglesworth removes 3 from the tally of cases of spiritual halluciantions. I was depending on John 14:12 for 3 of those. Not knowing about Wigglesworth and the pentacostals though isn't really showing spiritual blindness on my part. Hopefully you agree. I just didn't know those stories. That means we're still at 2 cases of spiritual blindness vs. 111 cases of spiritual hallucination ( aka drunk on Jesus ).

Are you finished debating? Maybe you're tired? I understand. But you still have not been able to show that Jewish people are currently spiritually blind. Conversely many many examples have been brought where scripture needs to be ignored, warped, or added to inorder to justify the claim.

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Well, l don't accept that scripture has to be warped to justify the case for spiritual blindness.

These are the words of Paul in 2 Corinthians 3:13-16.
'And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of lsrael could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.'

The spiritual blindness applies to not knowing Christ, who is the Spirit that brings liberty, as the scripture teaches.

Until the heart and spirit of lsrael are renewed, there can be no victory over sin. The teaching of scripture appears to confirm this need for change.

Psalm 51:10. 'Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me'.

Proverbs 20:9. 'Who can say, l have made my heart clean, l am pure from my sin?'

Isaiah 29:13.'Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:'

Jeremiah 32:39. 'And l will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them:
And l will make an everlasting covenant with them, that l will not turn away from them, to do them good; but l shall put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me'.

Ezekiel 11:19. 'And l will give them one heart, and l will put a new spirit within you; and l will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh:
That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and l will be their God'.

I don't see Torah Jews recognising this need for a new heart and new spirit. Yet, the scriptures appear to confirm the need to become 'a new creation'.

Of course, if lsrael denies that it is sinful, then there can be no hope of salvation from the sins of the heart.

Yet Zechariah (12:10), seeing the coming of the Lord against the nations, says 'and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn'.

What is the 'everlasting covenant' (Jeremiah) that has yet to be made (or remade) with lsrael?

Who is the Lord who makes His appearance to destroy the nations coming against Jerusalem?

Redemptionsong said:

Well, l don't accept that scripture has to be warped to justify the case for spiritual blindness.

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It's been 30 pages, and it still hasn't been shown that Christ clearly exists in Tanach. In order for it to be blindness, Christ needs to be obvious and right in front of my face, and I still don't see it. Further, his words and actions in the Christian new testament cannot disquaify him as a prophet of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

Can we agree to this definition of spiritual blindness? It can't be a shadow / type of Christ, it can't be the concept of salvation. It needs to be obviously Jesus Christ in order for the claim of blindness to be true.

Redemptionsong said:

The spiritual blindness applies to not knowing Christ, who is the Spirit that brings liberty, as the scripture teaches.

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I think there's a lot of room for common ground if were talking about a spirit of salvation, the concept of a savior. Yes it exists. We can even agree that this concept was one of the first in creation, before the creation of day and night. But not a Son of God who *needs* to die to solve the problem of sin.

The ideal example is Psalm 62. You said, "How can you not see the son in these verses?" I replied/rebutted, "There is no father-son dynamic in these verses." You never responded.

Now it seems you are watering down the theology, abandoning Jesus ( the so called Son of God ) from Christ and making it just a concept / spirit / idea. If so, then that makes a whole lot more sense. The Son-of-God dieing for sin, simply doesn' exist in Tanach or Judaism. I'm not blind to deny seeing it. It's hallucinating to see a "son" in Psalm 62.

Redemptionsong said:

These are the words of Paul in 2 Corinthians 3:13-16.
'And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of lsrael could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.'

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This doesn't help. All it shows is that your theology is completely different from what was revealed to the Jewish people in the Tanach. It's very common for a snake-oil sales person to talk down the competition. That's all that's happening here. It's marketing, not truth.

Redemptionsong said:

Psalm 51:10. 'Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me'.

Proverbs 20:9. 'Who can say, l have made my heart clean, l am pure from my sin?'

Isaiah 29:13.'Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:'

Jeremiah 32:39. 'And l will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them:
And l will make an everlasting covenant with them, that l will not turn away from them, to do them good; but l shall put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me'.

Ezekiel 11:19. 'And l will give them one heart, and l will put a new spirit within you; and l will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh:
That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and l will be their God'.

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There was no Jesus Christ when any of this is written. There is no Son of God dying for sin in any of these verses, nor in the surrounding context. Again, the concept of salvation exists, but the perscription offered by your theology is not needed. It's obvious from the verses you brought. Where is the need for a Son of God to die for sin? It doesn't exist in Judaism. That's a different religion.

Redemptionsong said:

I don't see Torah Jews recognising this need for a new heart and new spirit. Yet, the scriptures appear to confirm the need to become 'a new creation'.

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No, not really. A new heart and spirit are not needed. I explained this already. Joel and Hosea and Ezekiel speak about "teshuva" return. I brought you a detailed write-up on the jewish concept of return. It seems you ignored it. So, who's blind? I acknowledge that the concept of new heart / new spirit exists. But you deny the concept of "return" exists. Who's blind?

I notice you didn't deny ignoring scripture, just the denial that it was warped. Do you ignore the scripture which disproves your theology? Please be honest. It's OK to admit you ignore it. You simply like the idea of new heart / new spirit, right? It's a personal preference?

Redemptionsong said:

Of course, if lsrael denies that it is sinful, then there can be no hope of salvation from the sins of the heart.

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And now you're ignoring the Jewish concept of Tachanun, repentence. A full repentence is performed many times throughout the week by the Orthodox community. I brought ou the liturgy and asked you to read it. It seems like you didn't do that. Who's blind? I bring you the evidence and it's like you shut your eyes and don't even read the response.

Do you remember when I brought you the information about Jewish repentence? Jewish people absolutley accepts and admits that we are sinful. Do you hear what I'm saying?

Redemptionsong said:

Yet Zechariah (12:10), seeing the coming of the Lord against the nations, says 'and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn'.

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And here is another example of ignoring scripture. The verse immediately preceeding this one says "9 And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come upon Jerusalem." Well that clearly hasn't happened, so verse 10 also hasn't happened yet. Slicing and dicing prophecy isn't warping scripture? It's certainly ignoring the parts that don't fit your theology.

Redemptionsong said:

Who is the Lord who makes His appearance to destroy the nations coming against Jerusalem?

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The prophecy begins at Zecharia 12:1. Who is speaking?

So there you go, not Jesus, not Christ, not the "seed", not a cloud, not an angel, not a spirit, not a dove, etc... it's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of the plagues, the redeemer of Israel, the creator of everything ( including the spirit of salvation ).

@Redemptionsong ,

Let's review.

1. If your theology is watered down and Jesus is seperated from the concept / spirit of salvation, there is room for common ground.
2. Bringing Paul doesn't support your argument, it's marketing, talking down the competition
3. The verses you brought from the Jewish bible prove that Jesus Christ ( a son of god dying for sin ) is not needed.
4. Zecharia 12:10 hasn' happened yet, you're ignoring the verse immediately prior to it.
5. The savior in Zecharia 12 is YHVH, not a son-of-god dying as a ransom for sin.

Can you refute any of these?

dybmh said:

Do you remember when I brought you the information about Jewish repentence? Jewish people absolutley accepts and admits that we are sinful. Do you hear what I'm saying?

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Do you remember that l said, in response, that repentance is only the human part of the equation? Atonement, or the coming together of two spiritual beings (man and God) is only possible if they share the same Holy Spirit. To repent is a 'turning about' in the mind of the sinner. Instead of going his own way, a man vows to go God's way. But this is not enough. The power to make such a change must come from God. Otherwise, the inclination to sin, which exists in us all, is not overcome. Repentance, without God's response in grace and mercy, is a hollow cry.

The scriptures l quoted to you above demonstrate that God wishes to see a change of heart and spirit, but this requires God's salvation. God's salvation is providing a new spirit to replace one that is dying. A man cannot change his own spirit by repentance, he can only prepare himself for baptism by God.

If you read the preaching of John the Baptist, whose coming is prophesied in lsaiah and Malachi, you will see that he came to baptise with water 'unto repentance'. It was left to Jesus Christ to baptise with the Holy Spirit and fire.

It should already be evident to you, as a repentant Jew, that you have not managed to have your heart and spirit renewed. If you had experienced the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, you would know all about the power that marks its coming.

Once you recognise that Torah Jews do not sing 'a new song', but insist on following a covenant that is based on human righteousness, you will begin to see why God's coming to earth as a man was necessary. Only God can overcome sin, because only God can send the Holy Spirit!

You say that the Saviour in Zechariah is God, which is quite correct. Christ is the Spirit of God resting upon a man, Jesus. This is the manner in which God chose to come to earth. He made himself a human vessel, by overshadowing the virgin, Mary, and thirty years later sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in full measure within that human being, Jesus.

Jeremiah [32:39] says the God 'will make' an everlasting covenant with his people. This new covenant was not in existence in his lifetime, so when do you think the everlasting covenant begins? What is it that initiates this new covenant?

Jesus understood that his life was to be a sacrifice, and that he had come as the mediator between two testaments. The new covenant only comes into effect after his death and resurrection. It only comes into effect when the Holy Spirit is sent. This is why the new covenant is all about the presence of the Holy Spirit within the body of Christ. Without the Holy Spirit there is no new covenant.

dybmh said:

The verses you brought from the Jewish bible prove that Jesus Christ ( a son of god dying for sin ) is not needed.

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IMO, Jesus Christ is needed to bring about the promise of baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit, as opposed to the temporary 'covering' offered to prophets of the OT, is intended to spiritually cleanse (forgive) and empower the faithful who make up 'the body of Christ'. God's Spirit is the righteousness of Christ dwelling in the hearts of men.

Before Jesus died, he promised his disciples that he would send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, to any man who would faithfully follow him. This promise was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, and continued thereafter. Through prayer and the 'laying on of hands' the baptism in the Holy Spirit was passed from the apostles to newly repentant souls. This blessing was usually accompanied by a water baptism, demonstrating, outwardly, the disciple's desire to repent and follow Christ.

Can one be baptised in the Holy Spirit without faith in Jesus Christ? Well, not according to the NT.

The whole person, Jesus as Christ, seen as human and divine, needs to be acknowledged because it is in the flesh that his sacrifice becomes meaningful. God had to take on flesh in order to crucify flesh.

In resurrection, we see the acceptance of an unblemished 'lamb of God' received into heaven. And it is from heaven that the head of the body, Jesus Christ, baptises those that join themselves to His body.

Redemptionsong said:

IMO, Jesus Christ is needed to bring about the promise of baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit, as opposed to the temporary 'covering' offered to prophets of the OT, is intended to spiritually cleanse (forgive) and empower the faithful who make up 'the body of Christ'. God's Spirit is the righteousness of Christ dwelling in the hearts of men.

Before Jesus died, he promised his disciples that he would send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, to any man who would faithfully follow him. This promise was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, and continued thereafter. Through prayer and the 'laying on of hands' the baptism in the Holy Spirit was passed from the apostles to newly repentant souls. This blessing was usually accompanied by a water baptism, demonstrating, outwardly, the disciple's desire to repent and follow Christ.

Can one be baptised in the Holy Spirit without faith in Jesus Christ? Well, not according to the NT.

The whole person, Jesus as Christ, seen as human and divine, needs to be acknowledged because it is in the flesh that his sacrifice becomes meaningful. God had to take on flesh in order to crucify flesh.

In resurrection, we see the acceptance of an unblemished 'lamb of God' received into heaven. And it is from heaven that the head of the body, Jesus Christ, baptises those that join themselves to His body.

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Zero scripture here. This is all guess work. You have still not brought a single verse from Tanach which indicates a son-of-god is needed to die to eliminate sin. Your theology is a different religion with a different source. Jewish people are forbidden to follow a prophet advocating a different religion. Therefore denying Jesus Christ is not spiritual blindness, it is spiritual adherence.

There is no son-of-god dying for sin in Tanach. There is no blindness. An honest person would be able to admit it.

dybmh said:

Zero scripture here. This is all guess work. You have still not brought a single verse from Tanach which indicates a son-of-god is needed to die to eliminate sin. Your theology is a different religion with a different source. Jewish people are forbidden to follow a prophet advocating a different religion. Therefore denying Jesus Christ is not spiritual blindness, it is spiritual adherence.

There is no son-of-god dying for sin in Tanach. There is no blindness. An honest person would be able to admit it.

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From my perspective, an honest person would admit to numerous Tanakh prophecies all being fulfilled in the life of Jesus Christ. And, this is discounting His second coming in glory.
Can you honestly say that all these prophecies were not fulfilled by Jesus, as recorded in the NT?

Prophecies of the Suffering Servant
1. Genesis 3:15 > Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:8. The seed of the woman.

2. Genesis 12:3 > Matthew 1:1; Acts 3:25; 18:18; 22:18; Galatians 3:16. The seed of Abraham.

3. Genesis 17:19; 21:12 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Hebrews 11:17-19. The seed of Isaac.

4. Genesis 28:14; Numbers 24:17,19 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Revelation 22:16. The star out of Jacob who will have dominion.

5. Genesis 49:10 > Matthew 1:2-3; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14. A descendant of Judah.

6. 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:6 (7); Jeremiah 23:5 > Matthew 1:1,6; Acts 11:23; Romans 1:4. A descendant of David and heir to his throne.

7. Micah 5:1 (2) > John 11, 14; 8:58; Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians 1:15-19; Revelation 5:11. The Messiah’s eternal existence.

8. Psalms 2:7; Proverbs 30:4 > Matthew 3:17; Luke 1:32. The Messiah is the Son of God.

9. Isaiah 9:5-6 (6-7); Jeremiah 23:5-6 > Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:9-11. The Messiah bears God’s own name.

10. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1, 16,19; Luke 3:1,23. Coming 483 years after the rebuilding of the wall in Jerusalem.

11. Micah 5:1(2) > Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7. Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, Judea.

13. Psalms 72:10-11 > Matthew 2:1-11. Adored by great persons.

14. Isaiah 40: 3-5; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 3:1-3; Luke 1:17; 3:2-6. Announced by prophet.

15. Isaiah 11:2; 61:1; Psalm 45:8 (7) > Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38. Anointed with the Spirit of God.

16. Deuteronomy 18:15,18 > Acts 3:20-22. A prophet like Moses.

17. Isaiah 61:1-2 > Luke 4:18-19. Proclaims liberty and the acceptable year of the Lord.

18. Isaiah 35:5-6; 42:18 > Matthew 11:5 and throughout the Gospels. Ministry of healing.

19. Isaiah 8:23 – 9:1 (9:1-2) > Matthew 4:12-16. A ministry in Galilee.

20. Isaiah 40:11; 42:3 > Matthew 12:15,20; Hebrews 4:15. Be tender and compassionate.

21. Isaiah 42:2 > Matthew 12:15-16,19. Be meek and unostentatious.

22. Isaiah 53:9 > 1 Peter 2:22. Be sinless and without guile.

23. Isaiah 53:12; Psalm 69:10 > Romans 15:13. Bear the reproaches due to others.

24. Psalms 110:4 > Hebrews 5:5-6. Be a priest.

25. Zechariah 9:9 > Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11. Enter Jerusalem on the foal of an ***.

26. Haggai 2:7-9; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 21:12-24; Luke 2:27-38, 45-50: John 2:13-22. Enter the Temple with authority.

27. Isaiah 49:7; Psalm 69:5 (4) > John 7:48; 15:24-25. Be hated without cause.

28. Isaiah 53:2; 63:3; Psalm 69:9 (8) > Mark 6:3: Luke 9:58; John 1:11, 7:3-5. Rejected by his own people.

29. Psalms 118:22 > Matthew 21:42; John 7:48. Rejected by the Jewish leadership.

30. Psalms 2:1-2 > Acts 4:27. Plotted against by both Jews and Gentiles.

31. Psalms 41:9; 55:13-15 (12-14) >Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18. Betrayed by a friend.

32. Zechariah 11:12 > Matthew 26:15. Sold for 30 pieces of silver.

33. Zechariah 11:13 > Matthew 27:7. Have his price given for a potter’s field.

34. Zechariah 13:7 > Matthew 26:31,56. Forsaken by his disciples.

35. Micah 4:14 (5:1) > Matthew 27:30. Struck on the cheek.

36. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:30. Spat on.

37. Psalms 22:8-9 (7-8) > Matthew 27:31, 39-44, 67-68. Mocked.

38. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:26,30. Beaten.

39. Psalms 22:17; Zechariah 12:10 (16) > Matthew 27:35; Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:35; Revelation 1:7. Crucifixion.

40. Psalms 22:16 (15) > John 19:28. Thirsty during crucifixion.

41. Psalms 69:22 (21) > Matthew 27:34. Given vinegar to quench thirst.

42. Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:21 (20) >John 19:33-36. Executed without a bone broken.

43. Isaiah 53:12 > Matthew 27:38. Considered a transgressor.

44. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1; Luke 3:1,23. ‘Cut off, but not for himself’.

45. Isaiah 53:5-7, 12 > Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 3:16; Acts 8:30-35. Atone for the sins of mankind.

46. Isaiah 53:9 > Matthew 27:57-60. Buried with the rich when dead.

47. Isaiah 53:9-10; Psalm 2:7; 16:10 > Matthew 28:1-20; Acts 2:23-36; 13:33-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-6. Raised from the dead.

48. Psalms 16:11; 68:19 (18); 110:1 > Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11; 7:55; Hebrews 1:3. Ascend to the right hand of God.

49. Zechariah 6:13 > Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25-8:2. Exercise his priestly office in heaven.

50. Isaiah 28:16; Psalm 118:22-23 > Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7. The cornerstone of God’s spiritual temple.

51. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1 > Acts 10:45. Sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews.

52. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1-4; 49:1-2 > Matthew 12:21; Romans 15:10. Accepted by the Gentiles.

Redemptionsong said:

From my perspective, an honest person would admit to numerous Tanakh prophecies all being fulfilled in the life of Jesus Christ. And, this is discounting His second coming in glory.
Can you honestly say that all these prophecies were not fulfilled by Jesus, as recorded in the NT?

Prophecies of the Suffering Servant
1. Genesis 3:15 > Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:8. The seed of the woman.

2. Genesis 12:3 > Matthew 1:1; Acts 3:25; 18:18; 22:18; Galatians 3:16. The seed of Abraham.

3. Genesis 17:19; 21:12 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Hebrews 11:17-19. The seed of Isaac.

4. Genesis 28:14; Numbers 24:17,19 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Revelation 22:16. The star out of Jacob who will have dominion.

5. Genesis 49:10 > Matthew 1:2-3; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14. A descendant of Judah.

6. 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:6 (7); Jeremiah 23:5 > Matthew 1:1,6; Acts 11:23; Romans 1:4. A descendant of David and heir to his throne.

7. Micah 5:1 (2) > John 11, 14; 8:58; Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians 1:15-19; Revelation 5:11. The Messiah’s eternal existence.

8. Psalms 2:7; Proverbs 30:4 > Matthew 3:17; Luke 1:32. The Messiah is the Son of God.

9. Isaiah 9:5-6 (6-7); Jeremiah 23:5-6 > Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:9-11. The Messiah bears God’s own name.

10. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1, 16,19; Luke 3:1,23. Coming 483 years after the rebuilding of the wall in Jerusalem.

11. Micah 5:1(2) > Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7. Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, Judea.

13. Psalms 72:10-11 > Matthew 2:1-11. Adored by great persons.

14. Isaiah 40: 3-5; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 3:1-3; Luke 1:17; 3:2-6. Announced by prophet.

15. Isaiah 11:2; 61:1; Psalm 45:8 (7) > Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38. Anointed with the Spirit of God.

16. Deuteronomy 18:15,18 > Acts 3:20-22. A prophet like Moses.

17. Isaiah 61:1-2 > Luke 4:18-19. Proclaims liberty and the acceptable year of the Lord.

18. Isaiah 35:5-6; 42:18 > Matthew 11:5 and throughout the Gospels. Ministry of healing.

19. Isaiah 8:23 – 9:1 (9:1-2) > Matthew 4:12-16. A ministry in Galilee.

20. Isaiah 40:11; 42:3 > Matthew 12:15,20; Hebrews 4:15. Be tender and compassionate.

21. Isaiah 42:2 > Matthew 12:15-16,19. Be meek and unostentatious.

22. Isaiah 53:9 > 1 Peter 2:22. Be sinless and without guile.

23. Isaiah 53:12; Psalm 69:10 > Romans 15:13. Bear the reproaches due to others.

24. Psalms 110:4 > Hebrews 5:5-6. Be a priest.

25. Zechariah 9:9 > Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11. Enter Jerusalem on the foal of an ***.

26. Haggai 2:7-9; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 21:12-24; Luke 2:27-38, 45-50: John 2:13-22. Enter the Temple with authority.

27. Isaiah 49:7; Psalm 69:5 (4) > John 7:48; 15:24-25. Be hated without cause.

28. Isaiah 53:2; 63:3; Psalm 69:9 (8) > Mark 6:3: Luke 9:58; John 1:11, 7:3-5. Rejected by his own people.

29. Psalms 118:22 > Matthew 21:42; John 7:48. Rejected by the Jewish leadership.

30. Psalms 2:1-2 > Acts 4:27. Plotted against by both Jews and Gentiles.

31. Psalms 41:9; 55:13-15 (12-14) >Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18. Betrayed by a friend.

32. Zechariah 11:12 > Matthew 26:15. Sold for 30 pieces of silver.

33. Zechariah 11:13 > Matthew 27:7. Have his price given for a potter’s field.

34. Zechariah 13:7 > Matthew 26:31,56. Forsaken by his disciples.

35. Micah 4:14 (5:1) > Matthew 27:30. Struck on the cheek.

36. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:30. Spat on.

37. Psalms 22:8-9 (7-8) > Matthew 27:31, 39-44, 67-68. Mocked.

38. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:26,30. Beaten.

39. Psalms 22:17; Zechariah 12:10 (16) > Matthew 27:35; Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:35; Revelation 1:7. Crucifixion.

40. Psalms 22:16 (15) > John 19:28. Thirsty during crucifixion.

41. Psalms 69:22 (21) > Matthew 27:34. Given vinegar to quench thirst.

42. Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:21 (20) >John 19:33-36. Executed without a bone broken.

43. Isaiah 53:12 > Matthew 27:38. Considered a transgressor.

44. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1; Luke 3:1,23. ‘Cut off, but not for himself’.

45. Isaiah 53:5-7, 12 > Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 3:16; Acts 8:30-35. Atone for the sins of mankind.

46. Isaiah 53:9 > Matthew 27:57-60. Buried with the rich when dead.

47. Isaiah 53:9-10; Psalm 2:7; 16:10 > Matthew 28:1-20; Acts 2:23-36; 13:33-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-6. Raised from the dead.

48. Psalms 16:11; 68:19 (18); 110:1 > Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11; 7:55; Hebrews 1:3. Ascend to the right hand of God.

49. Zechariah 6:13 > Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25-8:2. Exercise his priestly office in heaven.

50. Isaiah 28:16; Psalm 118:22-23 > Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7. The cornerstone of God’s spiritual temple.

51. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1 > Acts 10:45. Sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews.

52. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1-4; 49:1-2 > Matthew 12:21; Romans 15:10. Accepted by the Gentiles.

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This is truly an awesome list. I have no idea what to say other than that. I've never encountered this before. I need to look at each one carefully. I will do that then respond. Thank you very very much. Sincerely,

You must draw out the context of the message. Drunkenness, deep sleep, closed eyes, actually give us a old testament example of what Jesus said when He said He has hidden the things from the wise and given them to babes. Matthew 11.25.
This means that spiritually we appear drunk because the qualities of being forgetful, being mentally attentive and highly honestly expressive. Closed eyes are contemplation, spiritual focus, and remembrance. Deep sleep refers to being eternally focused, and literally dying, but feeling like its sleeping. For those who are spiritually alive.

dybmh said:

This is truly an awesome list. I have no idea what to say other than that. I've never encountered this before. I need to look at each one carefully. I will do that then respond. Thank you very very much. Sincerely,

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People often wonder why it is that Christ's suffering is hidden in the Tanakh, and not stated explicitly.

The answer is given by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:7,8:
'But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory'.

This is quite a statement. It tells us that a spiritual battle is taking place in heavenly places, and men become the pawns in this struggle. Jesus would never have been crucified had evil powers not sought His death, yet in doing so the powers of evil sealed their own fate! [Genesis 3:15]

And, don't be misled, it was not just Jews who must be held responsible for Jesus' crucifixion. All who oppose Christ are guilty of making him their enemy. All become guilty of his crucifixion. But God, in his mercy, turns the negative into an opportunity for good. A repentant soul can accept the righteousness of God in Christ and be raised with him to a new life.

Redemptionsong said:

People often wonder why it is that Christ's suffering is hidden in the Tanakh, and not stated explicitly.

The answer is given by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:7,8:
'But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory'.

This is quite a statement. It tells us that a spiritual battle is taking place in heavenly places, and men become the pawns in this struggle. Jesus would never have been crucified had evil powers not sought His death, yet in doing so the powers of evil sealed their own fate! [Genesis 3:15]

And, don't be misled, it was not just Jews who must be held responsible for Jesus' crucifixion. All who oppose Christ are guilty of making him their enemy. All become guilty of his crucifixion. But God, in his mercy, turns the negative into an opportunity for good. A repentant soul can accept the righteousness of God in Christ and be raised with him to a new life.

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I have wept a river of tears listening to the truth. And, I'm quite sure that the heart knows when truth is spoken. Few have preached the message of truth more effectively than Billy Graham, IMO.
[The last part is worship and adverts]

@Redemptionsong ,

I'm trying to understand Gen 3:15, can you help?

I can understand if it's believed that Jesus crushed a serpent, but it doesn't make sense to me that he crushed the serpent, the one who conversed with Eve. Regardless of how one perceives the serpent in the story ( deception / sin / rebellion / etc ) these still exist and have not been crushed.

Or perhaps, the serpent from the story was crushed, but it continues to bite the heel somehow? Or perhaps the serpent from the story was crushed, but the "seed" of the serpent has been promoted or filled the vaccum left by the original?

dybmh said:

@Redemptionsong ,

I'm trying to understand Gen 3:15, can you help?

I can understand if it's believed that Jesus crushed a serpent, but it doesn't make sense to me that he crushed the serpent, the one who conversed with Eve. Regardless of how one perceives the serpent in the story ( deception / sin / rebellion / etc ) these still exist and have not been crushed.

Or perhaps, the serpent from the story was crushed, but it continues to bite the heel somehow? Or perhaps the serpent from the story was crushed, but the "seed" of the serpent has been promoted or filled the vaccum left by the original?

Click to expand...

I think it's important to understand that all 'seed' begins as a single seed, but when planted in the field it grows to produce its own fruit. Evil fruit grows from an evil seed, and good fruit from a good seed. From a single seed one gets multiplication.

The Serpent, we are told, represents Satan, but his seed are those that do his bidding, consciously or unconsciously. Likewise, the seed of the woman, Christ Jesus, brings forth a generation 'in Christ', who act in accordance with God's Spirit.

To my understanding, the conflict between the good and evil 'seed' is apparent from the very beginning of scripture, but the good seed is held in promise by God's chosen people, lsrael. The great turning point of history occurs with Christ Jesus at the cross, when death is overcome and the 'resurrection life' begins. This is a new age.