PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
They had lots of choices.
For much of the Roman world, and amongst Jews, declaring yourself a Christian could be a death sentence.
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Disappointed in our bishop
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They had lots of choices.
For much of the Roman world, and amongst Jews, declaring yourself a Christian could be a death sentence.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Paradoxically you think it is ok to tell people what they can, and cannot do with their own bodies.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Ever been snowboarding?
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Never even been in snow. Looks fun. Our Australia has a benign, warm climate - snow is rare.
It's not about being conservative (or liberal or political at all), it's a matter of traditional Church teaching.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Ever used a jet ski?
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
I have a river frontage property - but to get a jet ski I have to hire one (hard due to licensing) or buy one (expensive)
True, homosexual acts are not approved, but that does not mean a homosexual person is to be excluded. They remain the 'children of God' and as such are welcomed. The 'flags' are nothing more than a symbol of that truth.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
The Romans didn’t get people’ opinions before execution. Only Roman citizens could have a chance in hell of escaping punishment that makes Texas look pacifist. Romans would execute people as sport. Must be all the lead in their diet. I don’t see the apostles going up to the cops and begging to be martyred. Peter escaped from jail several times. Jesus ran. So much for willingness to die.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
"Jesus ran" ?????
That's a new one.
Peter 'escaped' ??? Chained between two jailers ?????
And as for "begging to be martyred" - this wasn't a thing with the Apostolic Church, but in later centuries there were people who would annoy Roman authorities by asking to be martyred. Frankly this is missing the whole point of the Gospels, but it did happen.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
One final item:
What are freedom of speech and expression?
The Constitution’s First Amendment gives individuals the right to express themselves. Freedom of speech is a basic form of expression, but the First Amendment covers much more than just speech.
An individual can express herself through religious practice; through political speech or actions; by associating with others; by petitioning the government; or by publicizing written speech. Even certain “speech actions” like flag burning are considered protected speech... -- Freedom of Speech and Expression | Subscript Law
Because you seem to want to invent "alternative facts", I've lost interest in our discussions.
Finally, goodbye.
Well:
What are freedom of speech and expression?
The Constitution’s First Amendment gives individuals the right to express themselves. Freedom of speech is a basic form of expression, but the First Amendment covers much more than just speech.
An individual can express herself through religious practice; through political speech or actions; by associating with others; by petitioning the government; or by publicizing written speech. Even certain “speech actions” like flag burning are considered protected speech... -- Freedom of Speech and Expression | Subscript Law
Because you seem to want to invent "alternative facts", I've lost interest in our discussions.
Finally, goodbye.
No, those are flags of a political movement that supports things that are against Church teaching. Not to mention the whole idea of someone basing their identity around sexuality runs against the Christian view of the human person, as well. They are certainly welcomed at church, or should be if they feel they are not, but those flags have no place in a Catholic institution.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
That is a very narrow definition of "freedom of expression" - and the source you quoted from even claimed that certain "expressions" are limited.
Also - you left out the sentence immediately following the part you quoted - which was,
"Free speech and expression are rights against the government. They are not rights against other people."
The Catholic Church is not the government - so you cannot claim "freedom of expression" justifies forcing them to fly flags of movements and organizations they do not agree with.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
No - the homosexual person coming into the church and worshipping would be "a symbol of that truth".
The Pride Flag is a symbol of many behaviors and acts that the Catholic Church would consider sinful.
They do come and worship, and are welcomed with the rest of us sinners.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
Correct - and that's how it should be.
Yet - flying those flags is not a symbol of the truth that all sinners are children of God and are welcome.
There are a lot of LGBT people who disagree with the "Pride" Movement.
Just as there are a lot of Black people who disagree with what BLM is doing and saying.
So - the Catholic Church is not excluding anyone for not wanting to fly those flags.
Those flags do not represent people - but ideologies - ideologies that the Catholic Church - and many LGBT and Black people - do not agree with.
We all disagree about a lot of things, yet our togetherness and respect for and acceptance of one another unites as the children of God.
Instead of concentrating on what you believe is wrong with the other
"Most men worry about their own bellies, and other people's souls, when we all ought to be worried about our own souls, and other people's bellies."
- Rabbi Israel Salanter
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Though paradoxically the endemic rape of children doesn't seem to bother them. maybe that's why they awarded Jimmy Saville a Papal knighthood? Still you're right, I mean a flag ffs???
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
We are all children of God - we should respect and tolerate one another - we should not accept beliefs or behaviors we believe are sinful.
We accomplish all of this by inviting everyone to worship together.
Flying a flag has nothing to do with any of that.
I do not have the right to demand that anyone fly any flag.
Anyone can refuse to fly a flag and still respect and tolerate those who decide to fly a flag.
Again - flags are not people - movements and organizations are not people.
Not all LGBT people agree with the Pride movement - stop conflating the two.
Not all Black people agree with the BLM organization - stop conflating the two.
I don't understand why people insist that rejecting an ideology is equivalent to rejecting a person.