Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

Sheldon said:

The sheer number of irrational claims is relevant. It may seem tedious, it certainly is to keep pointing them out, but you're shooting the messenger.

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Whatevs but its youse a shootin' your
own foot.

Bree said:

Bible prophecies are not vague.

the propecy from Isaiah gives the name of the person who will overthrow the city Babylon.
Daniel gave a prophecy with an exact number of years to the messiahs appearance (the 70 years prophecy)
Jesus prophecy about jerusalems destruction by rome specifically states that they will build a wall of 'pointed stakes' around Jerusalem which they did in 70CE ....40 years after jesus death.
.

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Some are specific.
Accurate is another matter.

Redemptionsong said:

What do you know to be untrue, and how can you be so sure?

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The flood sure is not true.

kaninchen said:

I stand by the NT being neither scripture nor reportage so the question is merely 'literary', like asking me to compare myself with Elizabeth Bennet or Lara Antipova.

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Jane Austen never claimed to be speaking the words of God!

The Bible may not mean much to you, but you must, neverthless, be aware of the impact that the Bible, and its faithful believers, have had on world history. If the Bible were not seen as powerful and dangerous, it would not have been banned in many countries around the world.

Redemptionsong said:

I give greater credit to those who seek after the truth, knowing that truth is not easily established, or broken. The claims made by Muslims and Bahais need to be investigated carefully, but I believe God has already established his safeguards against those who aim to break in like thieves. See Revelation 22:18,19.

There are certain facts that can be established by historical research, and in many ways this is the easy bit. The framework into which prophecy fits is necessary for prophecy to be believable. Unfortunately, there are some sceptics who see it as their duty to deny prophecy first, and then base their revised history on the understanding that prophecy is not possibe!

The history of Israel is crucial to securing a foundation for prophecy. Jews exist today as a people, and the history of that people plays a huge part in determining the truth of scripture. Who is prepared to say that the history of Israel recorded in the Bible is inaccurate? It so, what is the truth?

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I think it would be important to have more Jewish input on any discussion about fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Did any Jew post a response to this thread?

Redemptionsong said:

Jane Austen never claimed to be speaking the words of God!

The Bible may not mean much to you, but you must, neverthless, be aware of the impact that the Bible, and its faithful believers, have had on world history. If the Bible were not seen as powerful and dangerous, it would not have been banned in many countries around the world.

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So what?

MyM said:

I will not even look at them, for they don't even know Arabic.

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Yes, you have struck me as particularly closed minded from the start, even for a theist. The notion an omniscient and omnipotent deity can only communicate as a monoglots is of course, preposterous in itself.

Well, that is where you are wrong. Satan has his own free will to do as he wishes. God gave him that. He (satan) says he will misguide the mankind but Allah says you will never be able to guide the believers. So we already know there will be discord amongst people. Islam has the answers. He's doin a great job in misguiding that is for sure. astaghfirAllah (God forgive)

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I don't believe in supernatural damsons, I believe I explained this already. So reeling off bare unevidenced claims about them in tandem, is pretty pointless.

The Bible isn't infallible as there are way tooo many discrepancies.

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Why are you telling me, I am an atheist?

The Quran, you cannot find one.

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That is untrue, and I offered a website full of them, which you refused to even look at, or offer any refutation, preferring had waving.

Reading online from some website, which cannot even understand the Arabic and the tafseer(explanation) and exegesis of the Arabic, is not a good argument.

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Not sure why this has to be repeated ad nauseam, but I am not going to simply accept your bare unevidenced claims.

in Islam, It isn't that we are expending so much time with this, it's that people don't understand correctly and have been told things in their religions that need to be refuted for others to understand and think for themselves.

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I don't have any religion, I am an atheist. I see no objective difference between your religion and all the others, and no objective evidence for any deity.

I was in a bubble for so long. In my own head and I thought I was sooo right in my religion-but I am glad I woke up. I want the same for others to just listen or ask questions without their thinking they are correct but out of humbleness and genuine and outside their own box. It isn't taboo.

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Yet you can offer nothing beyond the same subjective claims all the other religions make.

Anyways, being a Muslim, I am entitled to tell others and it isn't upon me to make them believe.

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This is a public debate forum, and all claims and beliefs can be subjected to critical scrutiny. If all you have are bare subjective and unevidenced claims then I am going to disbelieve them, and say so.

Redemptionsong said:

The Bible may not mean much to you, but you must, neverthless, be aware of the impact that the Bible, and its faithful believers, have had on world history. If the Bible were not seen as powerful and dangerous, it would not have been banned in many countries around the world.

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Which does not make it true. Merely influential. There are a lot of books that are not true, yet still hugely influential.

Audie said:

The flood sure is not true.

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How can you be so sure?

CG Didymus said:

I think it would be important to have more Jewish input on any discussion about fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Did any Jew post a response to this thread?

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I don't think so, but I can assure you that we've had these debates many times!

All 'suffering servant' prophecies are applied by Torah Jews to figures in the Tanakh, or to Israel as a whole. All Messianic prophecies accepted by Torah Jews are those that Christians apply to the second coming.

Redemptionsong said:

How can you be so sure?

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No water.
No halt in human civilization.
No burned off atmosphere from the suddenly increased pressure.
No frozen earth from the suddenly decreased pressure.
No geological layer of a mass extinction.
Trees
Conservation of angular momentum
The list goes on and on and on

Audie said:

So what?

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This means that rulers must think there is something powerfiul and dangerous about the Bible! Do rulers think the same way about the works of Jane Austen?

Redemptionsong said:

It's quite clear that you don't have anything to offer.

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The claim is yours not mine, I don't need to offer anything beyond disbelief.

The Bible offers us many passages of scripture that point to future times, and future fulfilment.

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the present some objective evidence for this bare claim?

Each prophecy, on its own, is like a jigsaw piece, and requires placing to produce a meaningful picture. One or two pieces placed together give an impression, but the picture is still unclear. When 50 pieces all fall into place, one realises that this is not just a random collection pressed together. Only the Spirit of God is capable of foreseeing these events.

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That is just another subjective unevidenced claim.

Look carefully at all the evidence for Jesus as the 'suffering servant' of scripture, and you will see that no one else could possible fit the bill.

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What evidence? That is for you to demonstrate.

Prophecies of the Suffering Servant

1. Genesis 3:15 > Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:8. The seed of the woman.

2. Genesis 12:3 > Matthew 1:1; Acts 3:25; 18:18; 22:18; Galatians 3:16. The seed of Abraham.

3. Genesis 17:19; 21:12 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Hebrews 11:17-19. The seed of Isaac.

4. Genesis 28:14; Numbers 24:17,19 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Revelation 22:16. The star out of Jacob who will have dominion.

5. Genesis 49:10 > Matthew 1:2-3; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14. A descendant of Judah.

6. 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:6 (7); Jeremiah 23:5 > Matthew 1:1,6; Acts 11:23; Romans 1:4. A descendant of David and heir to his throne.

7. Micah 5:1 (2) > John 11, 14; 8:58; Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians1:15-19; Revelation 5:11. The Messiah’s eternal existence.

8. Psalm 2:7; Proverbs 30:4 > Matthew 3:17; Luke 1:32. The Messiah is the Son of God.

9. Isaiah 9:5-6 (6-7); Jeremiah 23:5-6 > Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:9-11. The Messiah bears God’s own name.

10. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1, 16,19; Luke 3:1,23. Coming 483 years after the rebuilding of the wall in Jerusalem.

11. Micah 5:1(2) > Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7. Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, Judea.

13. Psalm 72:10-11 > Matthew 2:1-11. Adored by great persons.

14. Isaiah 40: 3-5; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 3:1-3; Luke 1:17; 3:2-6. Announced by prophet.

15. Isaiah 11:2; 61:1; Psalm 45:8 (7) > Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38. Anointed with the Spirit of God.

16. Deuteronomy 18:15,18 > Acts 3:20-22. A prophet like Moses.

17. Isaiah 61:1-2 > Luke 4:18-19. Proclaims liberty and the acceptable year of the Lord.

18. Isaiah 35:5-6; 42:18 > Matthew 11:5 and throughout the Gospels. Ministry of healing.

19. Isaiah 8:23 – 9:1 (9:1-2) > Matthew 4:12-16. A ministry in Galilee.

20. Isaiah 40:11; 42:3 > Matthew 12:15,20; Hebrews 4:15. Be tender and compassionate.

21. Isaiah 42:2 > Matthew 12:15-16,19. Be meek and unostentatious.

22. Isaiah 53:9 > 1 Peter 2:22. Be sinless and without guile.

23. Isaiah 53:12; Psalm 69:10 > Romans 15:13. Bear the reproaches due to others.

24. Psalm 110:4 > Hebrews 5:5-6. Be a priest.

25. Zechariah 9:9 > Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11. Enter Jerusalem on the foal of an ***.

26. Haggai 2:7-9; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 21:12-24; Luke 2:27-38, 45-50: John 2:13-22. Enter the Temple with authority.

27. Isaiah 49:7; Psalm 69:5 (4) > John 7:48; 15:24-25. Be hated without cause.

28. Isaiah 53:2; 63:3; Psalm 69:9 (8) > Mark 6:3: Luke 9:58; John1:11, 7:3-5. Rejected by his own people.

29. Psalm 118:22 > Matthew 21:42; John 7:48. Rejected by the Jewish leadership.

30. Psalm 2:1-2 > Acts 4:27. Plotted against by both Jews and Gentiles.

31. Psalm 41:9; 55:13-15 (12-14) >Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18. Betrayed by a friend.

32. Zechariah 11:12 > Matthew 26:15. Sold for 30 pieces of silver.

33. Zechariah 11:13 > Matthew 27:7. Have his price given for a potter’s field.

34. Zechariah 13:7 > Matthew 26:31,56. Forsaken by his disciples.

35. Micah 4:14 (5:1) > Matthew 27:30. Struck on the cheek.

36. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:30. Spat on.

37. Psalm 22:8-9 (7-8) > Matthew 27:31, 39-44, 67-68. Mocked.

38. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:26,30. Beaten.

39. Psalm 22:17; Zechariah 12:10 (16) > Matthew 27:35; Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:35; Revelation 1:7. Crucifixion.

40. Psalm 22:16 (15) > John 19:28. Thirsty during crucifixion.

41. Psalm 69:22 (21) > Matthew 27:34. Given vinegar to quench thirst.

42. Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:21 (20) >John 19:33-36. Executed without a bone broken.

43. Isaiah 53:12 > Matthew 27:38. Considered a transgressor.

44. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1; Luke 3:1,23. ‘Cut off, but not for himself’.

45. Isaiah 53:5-7, 12 > Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 3:16; Acts 8:30-35. Atone for the sins of mankind.

46. Isaiah 53:9 > Matthew 27:57-60. Buried with the rich when dead.

47. Isaiah 53:9-10; Psalm 2:7; 16:10 > Matthew 28:1-20; Acts 2:23-36; 13:33-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-6. Raised from the dead.

48. Psalm 16:11; 68:19 (18); 110:1 > Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11; 7:55; Hebrews 1:3. Ascend to the right hand of God.

49. Zechariah 6:13 > Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25-8:2. Exercise his priestly office in heaven.

50. Isaiah 28:16; Psalm 118:22-23 > Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7. The cornerstone of God’s spiritual temple.

51. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1 > Acts 10:45. Sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews.

52. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1-4; 49:1-2 > Matthew 12:21; Romans 15:10. Accepted by the Gentiles.

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that is just a list of chapter and verse numbers.

This is called 'evidence'. It's an offering to someone who has nothing to give.

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It's not any kind of evidence, it's just a list of biblical chapters and verses, and again the thread claim carries the burden of proof, no one has to disprove it.

Redemptionsong said:

Jane Austen never claimed to be speaking the words of God!

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I doubt the literary canon is bereft of books where people claim to do so.

Redemptionsong said:

The Bible may not mean much to you, but you must, neverthless, be aware of the impact that the Bible, and its faithful believers, have had on world history. If the Bible were not seen as powerful and dangerous, it would not have been banned in many countries around the world.

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What you call the Bible includes a lot of fanciful stuff that Christians tack onto the end of the Tanakh.

(You've not noticed my religion, have you?)

MyM said:

Ya know, being pregnant in Islam is a blessing, not a curse. Even if she were to die in labor, she is considered a martyr. In Islam, the more pain one has, the more his sins are erased. This is a mercy from Allah. You may see it as something horrible, but a mu'min (practicing believer) takes Allah's words and Mohammad's sunnah very dearly and close to his/her heart. Allah has given us many ways to ask for forgiveness and has given us many ways of him relieving our pain and suffering being it mentally or physically. Allah is the cure.

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As long as you don't try and force your own beliefs onto others.

kaninchen said:

All 'proof text' approaches run into the fundamental problem that while a Christian audience views the NT as 'scripture/reportage', a non-Christian audience doesn't accept it as either scripture or reportage but merely as literature.

So, while you may, or may not, establish that 'Jesus' was the 'Suffering Servant' in a literary context, it no more establishes reality than arguing about characters in any novel would.

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Precisely.

Redemptionsong said:

If you believe that the Bible is full of error and contradiction, as all Muslims believe, then why has a scholar not attempted to rewrite the scriptures with all the errors taken out? Let me guess, it's because the task would be impossible. Once the threads of doubt begin to tear at scripture, the whole of scripture must be rejected. and where does this leave Islam, which actually claims to believe in the prophets of the Bible? It's actually a nonsense and a mess, all brought about by a false prophecy (IMO).

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When biblical errors are explicitly explained, in my experience theists respond with rationalisations, like claiming it is meant as allegory, no matter how obvious the error they wave it away. Of course Muslims are no more objective or open minded about the Quran, as we have seen in this thread.

Policy said:

No water.
No halt in human civilization.
No burned off atmosphere from the suddenly increased pressure.
No frozen earth from the suddenly decreased pressure.
No geological layer of a mass extinction.
Trees
Conservation of angular momentum
The list goes on and on and on

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The flood came, and receded, quite quickly, if you read the text. There is also a well documented list of survivors, along with the progeny who re-established settlements around the Middle East and beyond. Even the sons of Noah (Shem, Ham and Japheth) give their names to regions upon earth. Read Genesis 10 and you'll probably recognise some of the names as geographical locations. All are listed in their generations, providing a continuous record over time.

Redemptionsong said:

To believe in love, one must have faith.

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Love is descriptor we use to describe a wide variety of emotions. Religious faith also has a very specific definition, so if that is what you are talking about, then this claim makes little sense.

Note the secondary definition below describes specifically religious faith, as opposed to the common usage of the word in the primary defintion.

Faith
noun

1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
   "this restores one's faith in politicians"
   
   
   
2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

Thus your claim makes little sense in that context, what does "believe in love" even mean?

Redemptionsong said:

This means that rulers must think there is something powerfiul and dangerous about the Bible! Do rulers think the same way about the works of Jane Austen?

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Name the countries, name the other
religious books they ban.
This inherently a silly argument for " truth"
in the bible.