Are you waiting for any Fullfillment?

Brian2 said:

I have not read all of what Origen said but know that some of his ideas are not accepted.
Do you want to discuss any particular ideas of his?

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There's a problem here. All of Origen's original texts were burnt. We only have works in Latin, that has been shown to be "adjusted" by the translator.

I believe that Arius was a follower of Origen. I believe that Origen thought that Jesus was subordinate to the Father .. and NOT G-d.

It makes sense, if you think about it.
Why was Origen respected for so long, but in the 4th. century derided and labeled a heretic?
Arian belief was similarly outlawed.
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In any case .. staying on topic, Jesus will return as the promised Messiah, and not God.
Muslims and Jews have a similar belief about the Messiah.
The main difference is that instead of Jesus leading "the believers" into a golden age, one says that it is "the Jews" that will be led into a golden age.
Go figure.

Brian2 said:

I have not read all of what Origen said but know that some of his ideas are not accepted.
Do you want to discuss any particular ideas of his?

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What it does show, is that even in the 3rd century, that there were Christians that had an open mind on where the Faith of Christ could take us to and that the Bible was not literal.

Allegorical interpretation of the Bible - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul said:

What it does show, is that even in the 3rd century, that there were Christians that had an open mind on where the Faith of Christ could take us to and that the Bible was not literal.

Allegorical interpretation of the Bible - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

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Sometimes "open minded" Christians weren't very well tolerated...
But how open minded are any believers in any religion that holds the teachings of their religion as being the only truth? Or... that their truth is newer, and therefore, truer?
And I'm sure that even a Baha'i would disagree with many of the views held by some of the early Christians. Both the heretical ones and the orthodox ones. So, is there limits as to how "open" a person should be when it comes to claims of some religions? Especially since we know how some people get taken in by cults.

CG Didymus said:

Sometimes "open minded" Christians weren't very well tolerated...

John Calvin’s Fight Against Heretics...
When Jacques Gruet, a theologian with differing views, placed a letter in Calvin’s pulpit calling him a hypocrite, he was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547. Gruet's own theological book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch.

Michael Servetus, a Spaniard, physician, scientist and Bible scholar, suffered a worse fate. He was Calvin's longtime acquaintance who resisted the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. However, he angered Calvin by returning a copy of Calvin's Institutes with critical comments in the margins. So what did Calvin do?...

The next time Servetus attended Calvin's Sunday preaching service on a visit, Calvin had him arrested and charged with heresy. The 38 official charges included rejection of the Trinity and infant baptism. The city magistrates condemned him to death. Calvin pleaded for Servetus to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but to no avail. Some people see Calvin’s compassion in pursuing a more humane method of death, but ultimately he supported killing Servetus and all such heretics.
​

But how open minded are any believers in any religion that holds the teachings of their religion as being the only truth? Or... that their truth is newer, and therefore, truer?
And I'm sure that even a Baha'i would disagree with many of the views held by some of the early Christians. Both the heretical ones and the orthodox ones. So, is there limits as to how "open" a person should be when it comes to claims of some religions? Especially since we know how some people get taken in by cults.

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That shows how faith does start to deviate from the original intent, men's opinions start to dominate.

It was not easy in those days CG, men still wanted to dominate, as many still do in this age, but we are changing that attitude little by little day by day.

Luckily this all has been clarified further now, we have the Messages of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah to consider if those questions have been answered.

I see they have. Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul said:

That shows how faith does start to deviate from the original intent, men's opinions start to dominate.

It was not easy in those days CG, men still wanted to dominate, as many still do in this age, but we are changing that attitude little by little day by day.

Luckily this all has been clarified further now, we have the Messages of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah to consider if those questions have been answered.

I see they have. Regards Tony

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But Baha'i writings have the Umayyads and Abbasids as the beasts and dragons. And with all the sects in Islam, which one is the "true" one, if any? So, what got clarified? That Jesus was not God, then what happened to Islam?

CG Didymus said:

But Baha'i writings have the Umayyads and Abbasids as the beasts and dragons. And with all the sects in Islam, which one is the "true" one, if any? So, what got clarified? That Jesus was not God, then what happened to Islam?

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I look at it this way CG.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

This is all part of God's plan for humanity. He gave man choices and allows them.

In each age we are given explanations that are suited to our capacity of mind and allows us to grasp a progressive understanding of the purpose God has for us.

Or we can choose to remain tied to this material world, in any capacity we have chosen.

Some find the beauty of faith in the teachings but want life to go the way they desire, they do not fully submit to God. Muhammad knew this would happen to Islam, but what can a Messenger do? They can change men in the blink of an eye, but they choose to do God's Will, man has to submit of his own free will, that is how we find what God wants for us.

The Baha'i Faith is tested daily with the same issues. People have to learn to submit to what Baha'u'llah has put in his covenant, yet men still think they know better than the system Baha'u'llah gave us. Faith will always be a test, thus life is a test and the tests never end. I thank God for all of those tests, how else can we change for the better?

One of the greatest tests is being left to our own desires, that is the deepest darkest tunnel to climb out of, yet the choice is always there.

Regards Tony

muhammad_isa said:

There's a problem here. All of Origen's original texts were burnt. We only have works in Latin, that has been shown to be "adjusted" by the translator.

I believe that Arius was a follower of Origen. I believe that Origen thought that Jesus was subordinate to the Father .. and NOT G-d.

It makes sense, if you think about it.
Why was Origen respected for so long, but in the 4th. century derided and labeled a heretic?
Arian belief was similarly outlawed.

Click to expand...

I think the Arian problem was a stepping stone to intolerance in the Church, and having the power and Roman Emperors who wanted stability and one sure set of beliefs for the state religion would not have helped.
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muhammad_isa said:

In any case .. staying on topic, Jesus will return as the promised Messiah, and not God.
Muslims and Jews have a similar belief about the Messiah.
The main difference is that instead of Jesus leading "the believers" into a golden age, one says that it is "the Jews" that will be led into a golden age.
Go figure.

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Jesus will return and be whom He is.
The Jews will see it is Jesus and be very sorry and I believe they will be given another chance to be in the New Covenant.
Zech 12:6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

I believe it is the Messiah who returns who will save Israel and fight for Israel.
I can only imagine that the surrounding Islamic nations aren't going to be popular with God on that day.

Trailblazer said:

Rev 1 verses 1-6 are about Jesus but they do not show that verse 7 is also about the same man Jesus coming back to earth, because that would have to mean that John 14:19 and John 17:11 are incorrect.

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Verse 7 is about Jesus. It says that even those who pierced Him would see Him. Verse 8 also appears to be about Jesus, who is God who is to come.

That is exactly what happened to Baha’u’llah. First, he suffered many things and was rejected by His generation and after that “in His day” His message flashed like lightening from east to west.

Trailblazer said:

The prophecy does not say when Christ returns he will stand on the Mount of Olives, but we know that Jesus stood on the Mount of Olives so this prophecy is about Him.

“In Zechariah (14:4) we read: "14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." Not surprisingly, Christian commentators through the centuries have identified Jesus as the “branch of the Lord” (also referred to in the book of Jeremiah 2:5-6), as “the Lord…the messenger of the covenant” and John the Baptist as the “messenger” of the Lord, who “shall prepare the way before me”, and have noted that the feet of Jesus did indeed stand “upon the mount of Olives” and that an earthquake occurred upon His crucifixion."

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Zech 14:1 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

This is about the return of the Messiah , who is the LORD and who returns with all His holy angels and judges the earth,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,something that Jesus said the Father will not do but only the Son.(John 5)
It is interesting that Yahweh of the OT is shown to be Jesus, the Son of Man in the New Testament, the only Son who comes and judges.

Matt 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.…

Brian2 said:

I believe it is the Messiah who returns who will save Israel and fight for Israel.
I can only imagine that the surrounding Islamic nations aren't going to be popular with God on that day.

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Tut, tut

You are committing a serious error.
G-d is not a racist.

Furthermore, G-d promised in the OT that he would "raise up a prophet in both nations"
i.e. Ishmael and Isaac

It is simple really. ALL believers in the Abrahamic G-d can be sincere, or insincere.
The sincere will recognise Jesus as the promised Messiah.
The insincere will side with "the beast" [dajal], along with anybody else who does not accept his authority.

Making it all about the "tribal squabbles" of nations that have sprung from Abraham's sons is rather petty, I would have thought.
G-d is not petty!

Brian2 said:

I believe it is the Messiah who returns who will save Israel and fight for Israel.
I can only imagine that the surrounding Islamic nations aren't going to be popular with God on that day.

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It all unfolds as written. I wonder why many are waiting for that fulfillment? That is all
I can offer as humanity as a whole needs to consider new frames of references.

Regards Tony

muhammad_isa said:

Furthermore, G-d promised in the OT that he would "raise up a prophet in both nations"
i.e. Ishmael and Isaac

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So when as Allah so Will's that does happen, and sends a Messenger, why do you think the promised Messenger, which not only Christianity and the Jews await, but all God given faiths await, are then rejected?

Especially given the vision the Bible has given us, as to what will unfold in the last days.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul said:

Some find the beauty of faith in the teachings but want life to go the way they desire, they do not fully submit to God.

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If it is left up to people to "fully" submit, then when will any religion accomplish uniting the world in peace? Is there anyone you know of that has fully submitted? There are always the leaders, the exhorters, the spiritual and religious cheerleaders, then there are the followers. Many of whom don't do much to live for and promote their religion. Even Baha'is have their "nominal" believers that come to Feast once in a while and then they also have their inactive Baha'is. What is it going to take to get people to submit? An act of God? Yes, that is what Baha'is believe isn't it? That major catastrophes are on their way?

TransmutingSoul said:

Especially given the vision the Bible has given us, as to what will unfold in the last days.

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And that's one thing I keep asking, what is supposed to happen before the Christ/Messiah comes? Jews have a list. Christians have a list. And Muslims have a list. What are they all waiting for? What needs to be fulfilled? For Baha'is, everything that needed to happen has happened? All the prophecies about what needs to take place before the Messiah comes back have been fulfilled? My question is, does the Messiah come and wars and rumors of wars continue? The tribulations get worse? To me, it sounds like things get fixed when the Messiah comes.

TransmutingSoul said:

So when as Allah so Will's that does happen, and sends a Messenger, why do you think the promised Messenger, which not only Christianity and the Jews await, but all God given faiths await, are then rejected?

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Well, I haven't got a picture of Jesus, but as far as I'm aware he is from Palestine.
One big sign of the armageddon is the tall buildings in the Arab peninsula. That is a relatively recent phenomena, so we can expect things to develop at a rapid pace these days.
They most certainly are. We have climate-change and covid as good examples of this.

CG Didymus said:

If it is left up to people to "fully" submit, then when will any religion accomplish uniting the world in peace? Is there anyone you know of that has fully submitted? There are always the leaders, the exhorters, the spiritual and religious cheerleaders, then there are the followers. Many of whom don't do much to live for and promote their religion. Even Baha'is have their "nominal" believers that come to Feast once in a while and then they also have their inactive Baha'is. What is it going to take to get people to submit? An act of God? Yes, that is what Baha'is believe isn't it? That major catastrophes are on their way?

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Yes fully submit is indeed a rare faith, a faith such as Abdul'baha had, so the statement I'd based in the light of that life, and not what we currently see in most of our lives, though Abdul'baha said, Little by Little, Day by day!

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul said:

It all unfolds as written.

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It has already unfolded as written and it will continue to unfold until everything in the Bible has been fulfilled.

TransmutingSoul said:

I wonder why many are waiting for that fulfillment?

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Most people are waiting and they will continue to wait and wait and wait till they die and realize they were waiting for something they believed that was never going to happen.

CG Didymus said:

And that's one thing I keep asking, what is supposed to happen before the Christ/Messiah comes? Jews have a list. Christians have a list. And Muslims have a list. What are they all waiting for? What needs to be fulfilled? For Baha'is, everything that needed to happen has happened? All the prophecies about what needs to take place before the Messiah comes back have been fulfilled? My question is, does the Messiah come and wars and rumors of wars continue? The tribulations get worse? To me, it sounds like things get fixed when the Messiah comes.

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Well, you know how I would answer that question as it unfolded as per per Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Also my ideas of Revelation is that some of it is timeless, it happens at each Revelation and some can by attributed more openly to specific Revelations.

Consider many false prophets do make a claim, but amongst them are those that are from God. The Prophecy will thus fit them, whereas, they will not fit a false prophet.

Regards Tony

Trailblazer said:

It has already unfolded as written and it will continue to unfold until everything in the Bible has been fulfilled.

Most people are waiting and they will continue to wait and wait and wait till they die and realize they were waiting for something they believed that was never going to happen.

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That seems to be what we will see in our age, such is life and our choices in faith!

I would add that my reply also contains what Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi have included, though I did not add that . I have to learn to say less.....but then.maybe that's the problem....maybe we should be saying more amongst all the protests from those that wish us to be quite?

Sucha quandary, where is the balance!

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

And that's one thing I keep asking, what is supposed to happen before the Christ/Messiah comes? Jews have a list. Christians have a list. And Muslims have a list. What are they all waiting for?

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They are waiting for a figment of their own imagination, i.e., what they believe that Messiah will be and do, according to their personal interpretation of scriptures.

CG Didymus said:

What needs to be fulfilled? For Baha'is, everything that needed to happen has happened? All the prophecies about what needs to take place before the Messiah comes back have been fulfilled?

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Everything for the coming of the Messiah/return of Christ has been fulfilled as written, but many of the messianic age prophecies have yet to be fulfilled because we are only in the very beginning of the messianic age which will last no less than 1000 years (from 1852 AD).

CG Didymus said:

My question is, does the Messiah come and wars and rumors of wars continue? The tribulations get worse? To me, it sounds like things get fixed when the Messiah comes.

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Wars and rumors of wars will continue and tribulations will get worse after the Messiah comes. Things start to get fixed when the Messiah comes but everything does not suddenly and magically get fixed when the Messiah comes since humans are the ones who have to fix things and that takes a long time. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Messiah will fix these things Himself or that all the things will be fixed during the lifetime of the Messiah, as Christians and Jews believe. Read your Bible, you won't find any verses that say that. They only believe that because they have misinterpreted the Bible to suit their fancy.

muhammad_isa said:

Well, I haven't got a picture of Jesus, but as far as I'm aware he is from Palestine.
One big sign of the armageddon is the tall buildings in the Arab peninsula. That is a relatively recent phenomena, so we can expect things to develop at a rapid pace these days.
They most certainly are. We have climate-change and covid as good examples of this.

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Unfortunately those buildings foundations built on sand, as are many coastal cities, and they will fail.

Regards Tony