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Two Gods in OT

Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
In the OT there are two Gods. First the God who is not seen, because he is spirit, and second the God who is seen, because he is the manifestation of the invisible God, who is called "angel". He speaks as if he were God because he is God, but at the same time there is another God who sent him. Both work together, they work as one.

The Angel of the Lord in OT is Jesus! When Jesus was born that Angel disapeared, because he is that Angel! The Angel of the Lord is the Word of God, everything was created through him.

Jesus isn't a created being, he is the Word of God. The Word of God cannot be created. It sounds illogical to us human beings, but God's word is a person, we cannot compare our word with God's.

That's my thought.
 
Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Sooo...two gods?

Thank you. You have been of great assistance in terms of solving the ages-old Jewish halachic debate of whether or not Christianity may be constituted as polytheism.

Not sure most Christians would be happy with your conclusion, though.
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Harel13 said:
Sooo...two gods?

Thank you. You have been of great assistance in terms of solving the ages-old Jewish halachic debate of whether or not Christianity may be constituted as polytheism.

Not sure most Christians would be happy with your conclusion, though.
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It's alright, Christians aren't ever really happy with even other Christians' answers about who and what Jesus is :D
 
Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
Harel13 said:
Sooo...two gods?

Thank you. You have been of great assistance in terms of solving the ages-old Jewish halachic debate of whether or not Christianity may be constituted as polytheism.

Not sure most Christians would be happy with your conclusion, though.
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I have no problem calling Christianity polytheistic, in the end only the polytheistic Christians will be allowed to eat from the tree of life. :)
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Snow White said:
I disagree that it's Jesus, but rather two competing types of OT writers hashing out which God to go with.
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The ' us' of Genesis 1:26 is Not one person.
Jesus gives the creation credit to his Creator at Revelation 4:11.
In the OT I find there is the Creator God and the ' god ' of this world of badness - 2 Corinthian 4:4 ( aka Satan)
Satan competes with God (YHWH) and challenges ALL of us as he did with the man Job at Job 2:4-5.
Touch our ' flesh'... ( loose physical health ) and under adverse conditions we would Not serve God.
Both faithful Job and Jesus under extreme test proved Satan a liar and so can we.
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I wonder how the OP would have understood this without the NT.
 
Jeremiah Ames

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Teritos said:
Jesus isn't a created being, he is the Word of God. The Word of God cannot be created. It sounds illogical to us human beings, but God's word is a person, we cannot compare our word with God's.
Click to expand...

I agree.

I think this concept is quite difficult for many people in Christianity, since Jesus is not portrayed that way in the churches.

But, there are not 2 Gods.
In the OT, you will find the word “one” used many many times in relation to God.
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
God doesn't get weary. Jesus can't be a god.

Isaiah 40:28 - Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary; His understanding is beyond searching out.

John 4:6 - Since Jacob's well was there, Jesus, weary from His journey, sat down by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
 
Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
Jeremiah Ames said:
In the OT, you will find the word “one” used many many times in relation to God.
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the hebrew word echad can also mean unity, doesn't have to be one.

Let US create man
man became like ONE OF US to recognize good and bad
remember your CREATORS
etc.
 
Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
dybmh said:
God doesn't get weary. Jesus can't be a god.

Isaiah 40:28 - Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary; His understanding is beyond searching out.

John 4:6 - Since Jacob's well was there, Jesus, weary from His journey, sat down by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
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God doesn't repent. YHWH can't be God.

Numbers 23:19
God doesn't repent.
Genesis 6:6
And YHWH repented that he had made man.

I used the same logic like you.
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
dybmh said:
God doesn't get weary. Jesus can't be a god.

Isaiah 40:28 - Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary; His understanding is beyond searching out.

John 4:6 - Since Jacob's well was there, Jesus, weary from His journey, sat down by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
Click to expand...
I would like to see what a Christian makes of this, actually.
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@Teritos , What about Isaiah 41:9?

Here, God can't be the suffering servant. It's a little stronger than the previous example because everything is contained in one single verse.

"I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, ‘You are my servant’ I have chosen you and have not rejected you."
​
It says "I called you", not "I called myself". Doesn't this verse refute an equivilance of God to the suffering servant? I know it's a tad off-topic. But I'm interested in your reponse.
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Rival said:
Chabad has:
And the Lord regretted that He had made man upon the earth, and He became grieved in His heart.
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Yes, but it's the same word/ root between the two verses. So I think it's a valid counter example considering my objection was equating Hebrew to Greek.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
dybmh said:
Yes, but it's the same word/ root between the two verses. So I think it's a valid counter example considering my objection was equating Hebrew to Greek.
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It is the same 3 letter construction but so is the word in Ex 13:17 and it clearly doesn't mean anything like "regret". The 3 letter connection doesn't really lead to anyplace necessary in terms of meaning.
 
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