Give me a good reason for not leaving RF

Truthseeker9 said:

This reply is out of date. He has decided to stay.

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OK.

Truthseeker9 said:

Look at his further posts for more illumination for your further understanding.

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I'll probably choose to look elsewhere for illumination.

RestlessSoul said:

There you go again with your "rational, logical, factual" mantra. And there you go again, claiming objective assessment of something you admit is alien to you.

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Since reason and logic is the only reliable way to get to a truthful conclusion then your criticism of my using it suggests you are hostile to truth. Reason is a superior way to assess religious concepts. Faith is an exceptionally unreliable way, but you and other theists prefer it, and are proud of it. So it's quite the contrary that religion is alien to me, I've studied the psychology of religion which gives me insights into why people are religious that the religious themselves don't understand. And let's note that the fervor a person might feel due to religious belief and ritual is the same chemical hormones that any other excitement creates.

I don't think we struggle to communicate because we have different opinions or perspectives, nor because we have different biological and social conditioning - in fact I reject the latter totally, as I'm pretty sure we're both human. But any understanding between us will be a one way street, if you cannot set your reliance on logic and reason aside for just long enough to entertain the possibility that there may be other ways of seeing, knowing, and understanding the world.

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Well religion certain has a notoriously bad track record for explaining anything true about the world. That's why science has obliterated many beliefs, from geocentricity, to a 6000 year old planet, to miracles, to a creation, to a Noah's Ark, to slavery, to there being absolute morals from religion, etc. You tell me one thing that religion has revealed as true that science failed at, or couldn't do better.

One example of how religion influences religious people how they seeing, knowing, and understanding the world is the 9-11 hijackers. Those guys were so damn certain they understood God's will that they gave their lives. Are you that certain? That is what religion can do to human beings, and they can behave through faith, and without reason, and act. That is the result of faith, and the faithful having contempt for reason, logic, and facts.

I am interested to know what the term spiritual means to you though. I agree spirituality is not the same thing as religion, nor are the two always found in the same institutions or individuals.

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I notice you offer no definition. Do you not have one?

My definition is that spirituality has three aspects for humans to attain balance: physical, emotional, and intellectual. Physical is having good discipline to et well, stay fit, be as optimal as you can be at your stage in life. The emotional is to attain emotional balance (aka Emotional Intelligence as outlined in the book by the same name, which could be termed to have a sound maturity) and not give in to temptations and fear, be aware and act with intention. The intellectual balance is to be well educated and skeptical of fantastic claims. Make educated and reasoned decisions, avoid being impulsive, especially to soothe anxiety or depression.

Spirituality can be achieved in most any way. Being active in sport is one way I do it. Yoga is very good. Meditation is an execellent way to quiet the mind and find center. Even some religious services can bring about a peaceful state of mind and help a person ease anxiety.

I don't see spiritual;ity as heavy dogma where a humans becomes an agent for a hard set of irrational concepts. These people have no freedom from the very concepts they believes defines their meaning. It's an easy path, and excuses the person from being responsible for their state of mind. This is why we see so many theists unable to define their beliefs, but become quickly defensive when these ideas are criticized. The believer that sees the self AS the ideas they believe is has lost any true self. It's an easy path, and requires little effort or courage.

I don't remember saying anything that could be interpreted as moral judgement of atheists btw, so not sure why you need me to acknowledge that many atheists are decent people. Most people are essentially decent in my experience, at least until one inadvertantly steps on their toes.

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Well you made some passive aggressive comments that implied atheists are somehow inferior to theists. Surely you are aware that there are many good atheists along with good theists, and bad people in both categories, yes?

Truthseeker9 said:

Yes, indeed. Well said. I wish I said that.

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On the plus side you avoided any embarrassment.

Riders said:

I've gone to 3 classes on Rumi poetry at Cosmic Cafe it's fun and I like his poetry.

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Were you by any chance on Beliefnet some time from 2000-2010? Riders of the Storm, perhaps?

Jayhawker Soule said:

I do not understand. Whether or not you are pained or bored has nothing to do with whether or not you can speak openly. As for being worried, it's not at all clear why. If you wish to avoid disagreement, avoid debate forums or, at the very least, limit your participation to same-faith-only discussions. And, of course, if your goal is to shield yourself from "all the negativity toward God or other deities," acknowledge that this is entirely your issue and, either, learn to tolerate it or leave.


With all due respect, please give me an honest reason why I should court your continued participation?

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I am and was tired with atheists who can not accept believers when they answer why or how they believe.

Truthseeker9 said:

Great news!

Trailblazer thinks you're from Norway. Is that true? That's amazing to me if true. Meandflower told me she is Norwegian. Two favorites of mine.

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Yup from Norway

F1fan said:

Since reason and logic is the only reliable way to get to a truthful conclusion then your criticism of my using it suggests you are hostile to truth. Reason is a superior way to assess religious concepts. Faith is an exceptionally unreliable way, but you and other theists prefer it, and are proud of it. So it's quite the contrary that religion is alien to me, I've studied the psychology of religion which gives me insights into why people are religious that the religious themselves don't understand. And let's note that the fervor a person might feel due to religious belief and ritual is the same chemical hormones that any other excitement creates.


Well religion certain has a notoriously bad track record for explaining anything true about the world. That's why science has obliterated many beliefs, from geocentricity, to a 6000 year old planet, to miracles, to a creation, to a Noah's Ark, to slavery, to there being absolute morals from religion, etc. You tell me one thing that religion has revealed as true that science failed at, or couldn't do better.

One example of how religion influences religious people how they seeing, knowing, and understanding the world is the 9-11 hijackers. Those guys were so damn certain they understood God's will that they gave their lives. Are you that certain? That is what religion can do to human beings, and they can behave through faith, and without reason, and act. That is the result of faith, and the faithful having contempt for reason, logic, and facts.


I notice you offer no definition. Do you not have one?

My definition is that spirituality has three aspects for humans to attain balance: physical, emotional, and intellectual. Physical is having good discipline to et well, stay fit, be as optimal as you can be at your stage in life. The emotional is to attain emotional balance (aka Emotional Intelligence as outlined in the book by the same name, which could be termed to have a sound maturity) and not give in to temptations and fear, be aware and act with intention. The intellectual balance is to be well educated and skeptical of fantastic claims. Make educated and reasoned decisions, avoid being impulsive, especially to soothe anxiety or depression.

Spirituality can be achieved in most any way. Being active in sport is one way I do it. Yoga is very good. Meditation is an execellent way to quiet the mind and find center. Even some religious services can bring about a peaceful state of mind and help a person ease anxiety.

I don't see spiritual;ity as heavy dogma where a humans becomes an agent for a hard set of irrational concepts. These people have no freedom from the very concepts they believes defines their meaning. It's an easy path, and excuses the person from being responsible for their state of mind. This is why we see so many theists unable to define their beliefs, but become quickly defensive when these ideas are criticized. The believer that sees the self AS the ideas they believe is has lost any true self. It's an easy path, and requires little effort or courage.


Well you made some passive aggressive comments that implied atheists are somehow inferior to theists. Surely you are aware that there are many good atheists along with good theists, and bad people in both categories, yes?

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Interesting that you claim to understand what was in the minds of the 9/11 hijackers. Is it your knowledge of psychology that gives you these insights? Would that be a valid application of psychological principles, given you have presumably never met, spoken with or clinically assessed any of those individuals? Interesting that you went straight to that example, to illustrate your point about faith. Then later you talk about science “obliterating” beliefs. Interesting psychological processes at work here, don’t you think?

I see that your definition of spirituality makes no reference to the spirit. Fair enough, you don’t, presumably, believe in the spirit. So you offer the triangle of body, emotion, and intellect. That appears, to me, a little unbalanced; I prefer mind, body, and spirit. But these are perhaps personal preferences; I do not share your impulse to undermine or invalidate perspectives held by others, which I do not share or understand.

Still, you have, in meditation, a practice many would consider spiritual. So presumably you accept that their are things which the intellect cannot achieve for you. Indeed, in recognising the need to “quiet the mind”, you are acknowledging that the mind can be a damaging distraction which robs us of tranquility.

You place great faith in logic, reason, and what you describe as science. Let’s not go into what you mean by science here. But I would make this observation; the spirit of scientific enquiry is not so very different from the spirit of philosophical enquiry, nor the spirit of religious enquiry. For any of them to advance significantly, an open mind and a willingness to challenge old, fixed ideas, and discard them when they no longer work, is essential.

Conscious thoughts said:

I am and was tired with atheists who can not accept believers when they answer why or how they believe.

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It sounds to me that you're modeling the same lack of acceptance.

Jayhawker Soule said:

It sounds to me that you're modeling the same lack of acceptance.

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I try to be tollerant, do i fail from time to time, yes i do. Working on it

RestlessSoul said:

Interesting that you claim to understand what was in the minds of the 9/11 hijackers.

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Do you think the 9-11 hijackers were correct in following their faith?

Psychology can explain why people behave in irrational and criminal ways. My point was to illustrate how your justification for religious belief is not reliable and does not achieve anything that reason, logic, and facts can.

Is it your knowledge of psychology that gives you these insights? Would that be a valid application of psychological principles, given you have presumably never met, spoken with or clinically assessed any of those individuals? Interesting that you went straight to that example, to illustrate your point about faith. Then later you talk about science “obliterating” beliefs. Interesting psychological processes at work here, don’t you think?

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The social sciences observe patterns of behavior and then work to explain why these patterns exist, why they are accepted, why they can be normalized, etc. You are free to look into these forms of science if you want to understand how it works.

I see that your definition of spirituality makes no reference to the spirit. Fair enough, you don’t, presumably, believe in the spirit. So you offer the triangle of body, emotion, and intellect. That appears, to me, a little unbalanced; I prefer mind, body, and spirit. But these are perhaps personal preferences; I do not share your impulse to undermine or invalidate perspectives held by others, which I do not share or understand.

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Well you can define spirit along with spirituality, neither of which you've bothered doing. As I've noted I'm not interested in fantasy or illusions as a means to have meaning and balance in life,. Humans are capable of being grounded in a real and factual understating of life and to my mind that is more beneficial than what religions offer in the form of belief in non-rational concepts.

Still, you have, in meditation, a practice many would consider spiritual. So presumably you accept that their are things which the intellect cannot achieve for you. Indeed, in recognising the need to “quiet the mind”, you are acknowledging that the mind can be a damaging distraction which robs us of tranquility.

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That's why I mentioned meditation. It is a practice that helps quiet the mind and forms discipline over emotions. Our emotions can run wild. Our limbic system is literally a leftover of our primitive brains from millions of years ago. As our intelligence evolved our emotion centers did not devolve. The fight or flight emotion centers evolved in animals to help them survive. Humans have intellect to know how to survive so we do not need our fear response mechanism like we used. So these emotions our limbic system creates can cause us trouble if we do not learn discipline over it. This large emotion center is one reason why religion can exploit believers and their fear. Fear of death or hell or whatever can motivate a believer to comply to irrational belief to offset the fear.

You place great faith in logic, reason, and what you describe as science.

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No faith at all. We can test whether logic and reason is reliable and it proves itself exceptionally valid and reliable, unlike faith. Faith has NO standard for truth. Logic is a set of rules that IS the standard for reason, and it works. What problem do you have with a reliable process over an unreliable option?

Let’s not go into what you mean by science here. But I would make this observation; the spirit of scientific enquiry is not so very different from the spirit of philosophical enquiry, nor the spirit of religious enquiry. For any of them to advance significantly, an open mind and a willingness to challenge old, fixed ideas, and discard them when they no longer work, is essential.

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The "spirit of enquiry" might be similar, that being a curiosity of understanding how things are, but philosophy and religion don't use an objective method. Theology and philosophy can say whatever a person want to say. Science has to follow the facts, apply an objective methodology, and be accurate to within a high statistical standard. Science has to show its work. Theology and philosophy doesn't have to.

So if you want to understand how things are true in reality, science is for you.

Conscious thoughts said:

I try to be tollerant, do i fail from time to time, yes i do. Working on it

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There is no race to enlightenment. We are free to be flawed and incorrect. That opens the door to learning.

F1fan said:

Do you think the 9-11 hijackers were correct in following their faith?

Psychology can explain why people behave in irrational and criminal ways. My point was to illustrate how your justification for religious belief is not reliable and does not achieve anything that reason, logic, and facts can.


The social sciences observe patterns of behavior and then work to explain why these patterns exist, why they are accepted, why they can be normalized, etc. You are free to look into these forms of science if you want to understand how it works.


Well you can define spirit along with spirituality, neither of which you've bothered doing. As I've noted I'm not interested in fantasy or illusions as a means to have meaning and balance in life,. Humans are capable of being grounded in a real and factual understating of life and to my mind that is more beneficial than what religions offer in the form of belief in non-rational concepts.


That's why I mentioned meditation. It is a practice that helps quiet the mind and forms discipline over emotions. Our emotions can run wild. Our limbic system is literally a leftover of our primitive brains from millions of years ago. As our intelligence evolved our emotion centers did not devolve. The fight or flight emotion centers evolved in animals to help them survive. Humans have intellect to know how to survive so we do not need our fear response mechanism like we used. So these emotions our limbic system creates can cause us trouble if we do not learn discipline over it. This large emotion center is one reason why religion can exploit believers and their fear. Fear of death or hell or whatever can motivate a believer to comply to irrational belief to offset the fear.


No faith at all. We can test whether logic and reason is reliable and it proves itself exceptionally valid and reliable, unlike faith. Faith has NO standard for truth. Logic is a set of rules that IS the standard for reason, and it works. What problem do you have with a reliable process over an unreliable option?


The "spirit of enquiry" might be similar, that being a curiosity of understanding how things are, but philosophy and religion don't use an objective method. Theology and philosophy can say whatever a person want to say. Science has to follow the facts, apply an objective methodology, and be accurate to within a high statistical standard. Science has to show its work. Theology and philosophy doesn't have to.

So if you want to understand how things are true in reality, science is for you.

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I don’t think the 9-11 hijackers were following any faith at all. Faith does not, imo, sanction either murder or suicide. They were Moslems, supposedly. Following Islam, I have been told, involves submission to the will of God. I do not think those terrorists were even close to enacting the Will of God.

What is my definition of spirit? Spirit is the breath of God, that which animates all living things, and every corner of the Universe. The same which moved upon the face of the waters, in Genesis. Spirituality is that which pertains to the Spirit. A spiritual person, I would define as one who considers serenity, compassion, and love to be the things of real and enduring value, rather than wealth, status or applause.

I have great respect for science by the way, though my understanding and knowledge are scant. Still, the great scientific minds of the last century, like Einstein, Niels Bohr, Heisenberg, Paul Dirac, Schrodinger etc seem to have been great philosophers also; men of imagination, intuition, open minded and original thinkers, willing to consider ideas that often appeared preposterous to their peers.

Conscious thoughts said:

Right now i am in a time of pondering what RF really mean to me, of course all the good discussion with friendly outcome is a pleasant excange, and i have some very good friends in here, And this is keeping me in RF right now.

As most if not all already know, i do not have anything against Atheists who want to discuss,but to be brutally honest, all the negativity toward God or other deities that are spoken about in RF, It has come to a point where i no longer feel a need to defend my own belief, and when this is spoken about in threads, this become seen as negative. Maybe it is no fun for people to not discuss the same topic about God vs No God anymore when the believer stop defending their belief.?

To me RF has been a free area where i can speak openly and with no worries, but this is no longer how i see it.
It is more of a pain to come in to RF this days. and RF has become more and more boring place to be.

So please give me a honest reason why I should stay.

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Maybe you should just leave for a while and take a break... I did for almost 2 years and it was great!

jonathan180iq said:

Maybe you should just leave for a while and take a break... I did for almost 2 years and it was great!

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I try but the good in RF pulling me back each time i thinking of leaving

F1fan said:

Were you by any chance on Beliefnet some time from 2000-2010? Riders of the Storm, perhaps?

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Yes This is me I've talked to you before F1FAn remember.

Riders said:

Yes This is me I've talked to you before F1FAn remember.

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LOL. no, my memory sucks. I haven't seen you around often enough to have it get reinforced. Well hello again.

F1fan said:

LOL. no, my memory sucks. I haven't seen you around often enough to have it get reinforced. Well hello again.

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HIYA! I am much more calm these days and don't debate as much as I use to. Of course I am 54 years old now too so I am old lol!

RestlessSoul said:

I don’t think the 9-11 hijackers were following any faith at all. Faith does not, imo, sanction either murder or suicide. They were Moslems, supposedly. Following Islam, I have been told, involves submission to the will of God. I do not think those terrorists were even close to enacting the Will of God.

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This perfectly illustrates the weakness and unreliability of faith, because every theists can claim their own faith justifies whatever they believe in. Your faith has no more authority over Muslims than there's has over yours. So your disagreement means nothing because you choose faith as a means to truth over facts, logic and reason. That's on you. many Muslims agree with the Godly acts of the 9-11 hijackers. Who are you to say God didn't lead them to that belief? This is how faith works. This is why it fails morally.

What is my definition of spirit? Spirit is the breath of God, that which animates all living things, and every corner of the Universe. The same which moved upon the face of the waters, in Genesis. Spirituality is that which pertains to the Spirit. A spiritual person, I would define as one who considers serenity, compassion, and love to be the things of real and enduring value, rather than wealth, status or applause.

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Your notion of spirit is impractical and abstract. It means very little to any person's actual path to finding truth. What you offer is more non-factual concepts that lead a believer deeper into illusion. and mental gymnastics. It inevitably means a person is less connected to reality and may feel more anxiety and stress about living with real problems that need real, hard solutions.

Let's note that virtues like compassion are not necessarily religious. Many religious people lack compassion, and we have to wonder why religion canner make bad people good. Good people tend to be good theists, and bad people tend to be bad theists. So the utility of religion seems superfluous.

I have great respect for science by the way, though my understanding and knowledge are scant. Still, the great scientific minds of the last century, like Einstein, Niels Bohr, Heisenberg, Paul Dirac, Schrodinger etc seem to have been great philosophers also; men of imagination, intuition, open minded and original thinkers, willing to consider ideas that often appeared preposterous to their peers.

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That's good. We need to recognize brilliant minds and what they achieve, and honor them by respecting science.

Conscious thoughts said:

Right now i am in a time of pondering what RF really mean to me, of course all the good discussion with friendly outcome is a pleasant excange, and i have some very good friends in here, And this is keeping me in RF right now.

As most if not all already know, i do not have anything against Atheists who want to discuss,but to be brutally honest, all the negativity toward God or other deities that are spoken about in RF, It has come to a point where i no longer feel a need to defend my own belief, and when this is spoken about in threads, this become seen as negative. Maybe it is no fun for people to not discuss the same topic about God vs No God anymore when the believer stop defending their belief.?

To me RF has been a free area where i can speak openly and with no worries, but this is no longer how i see it.
It is more of a pain to come in to RF this days. and RF has become more and more boring place to be.

So please give me a honest reason why I should stay.

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I for one would be interested in starting a comparitive mysticism thread series where mystical experiences from various faith traditions can be discussed. I would like you to be there if you are interested.
But it will take a bit of time as I am currently overloaded with work.

sayak83 said:

I for one would be interested in starting a comparitive mysticism thread series where mystical experiences from various faith traditions can be discussed. I would like you to be there if you are interested.
But it will take a bit of time as I am currently overloaded with work.

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Will you tag me if you do that?

I don't know if I'd have much to contribute, but I'd love to read it.