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Why Anti-Religious and Anti-Theistic Thinking Miss the Mark

firedragon

Veteran Member
They haven't done so in the name of atheism and their is no "atheist bible" to justify good or bad.
And you seemed to miss where I have used examples where it isn't just the state but regular people as well.

Thats good, religious type of apologetics, but if you read what I said you would understand the point further.

Amd trying to insist their must be statistics for it proper is pseudo intellectual at best.

Again, very religious type of apologetics where some missionaries try to use ad hominem and an insult to try and defy what was said.

Deflection doesn't work.

Absolutely correct. Deflection does not really work.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
And Pol Pot managed to murder a quarter of the Cambodian population!

Definitely.

the point is, quoting names does not make a generalisation. To make a generalisation one has to make a hypothesis like "because Stalin killed millions, and persecuted homosexuals, all atheists are as nasty as them, and/or there a problem with atheism" and test with a random sample.

Otherwise, just making statements about all theists, or some books, with no basis is just bigotry. It is very difficult to shed our bigotries that we have been either programmed into, or have gathered along the way due to some good or bad experiences.

The thesis that the Bible or/and the Quran is nothing but evil and has motivated atrocities, but not atheism and/or atheists is just unfounded and proven wrong by all kinds of study. This prejudice will manifest in every interaction.

Peace.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Thats good, religious type of apologetics, but if you read what I said you would understand the point further.
It's not. Soviet Russia, for example, did nothing in the name of atheism. The Nazis and Inquisitors both did a lot in the name of Christianity.
Again, very religious type of apologetics where some missionaries try to use ad hominem and an insult to try and defy what was said.
It's using a different methodology than they one you're insisting must be used.
Absolutely correct. Deflection does not really work.
Definitely. So quit saying Christians and Muslims who are acting in the name of Christianity and Islam aren't actually doing that.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
It's not. Soviet Russia, for example, did nothing in the name of atheism. The Nazis and Inquisitors both did a lot in the name of Christianity.

It's using a different methodology than they one you're insisting must be used.

Definitely. So quit saying Christians and Muslims who are acting in the name of Christianity and Islam aren't actually doing that.

Youre wrong. Stalin did his atrocities, murdering church priests in the name of atheism.

See, just saying quit won’t work because obviously I won’t. You’re just not aware.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
The point was, the good Hitler did amd what good he inspired doesn't change the fact Hitler was an epic **** of a human being and National Socialism qualifies as a motherload of bad ideas.
It's not different with things like the Bible amd Quran. They have good in them. Every monster does. The good does not change this, nor should we downplay this. Things like women's medical and reproductive rights and LGBT equality are still being fought for because the Bible--and the garbage contained within--justifies and even promotes these struggles against a sane and just society where a woman is in charge of her own body. We should not be promoting the nuns doing charity work to ignore and downplay the real superstition and harm "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" has caused.

Vice versa, we shouldn't be ignore and downplay the good of religion and promoting their negative aspects. A balanced view is showing both in equal light. Acknowledging the good will help get through to religious folks better. If you ignore the good then it just comes across as incredibly biased and obviously deceptive.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The thesis that the Bible or/and the Quran is nothing but evil and has motivated atrocities, but not atheism and/or atheists is just unfounded and proven wrong by all kinds of study. This prejudice will manifest in every interaction.
The thesis that the Bible and or the Quran is "nothing but evil" seems to be a strawman since those arguing against the Bible and the Quran here appear not to have made that claim, but rather said essentially that the good in the Bible and the Quran do not cancel out the bad aspects in them.

Sure there is research that indicates that authoritarian regimes such as Communism are causal of atrocities, but I doubt that any authentic study will find atheism (or theism) alone to be causal of atrocity in themselves.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Up until a couple of years ago, I used to admire and identify with the so-called "New Atheist" movement, largely because at the time I felt a sense of belonging in its opposition to religion and ostensible promotion of values such as gender equality, LGBT rights, and freedom of religion.

Fast forward to today, however, and I find the idea of condemning religions or opposing them wholesale instead of supporting reformist and liberal interpretations and sects/denominations thereof quite myopic, unrealistic, and sometimes tribalistic. I'll explain why in this post.

First, the idea that religion is necessarily a negative thing—or that religions form an "axis of evil," as Hitchens put it—misses the fact that many charities and positive communities draw inspiration from their respective religious beliefs. While it is arguable that said communities would still be positive toward others even without any religion, the point remains that religion clearly doesn't necessarily impede progressive thought or inspire harmful beliefs or actions. To condemn religions as necessarily being an "axis of evil" or a force of bad in the world misses the point of promoting progressive ideals and instead focuses on pointless and tribalistic identity politics.

Second, there is also the fact that religions are often so encompassing of different aspects of life that they can easily include both beneficial and harmful beliefs, so it is simplistic to focus on only one aspect and declare them "wholly good" or "wholly bad" without considering the bigger picture.

For example, there are Islamist charities that have helped many families in dire need, yet some of those same charities are also run by people who believe in capital punishment for homosexuals and apostates. There are many discussions one could have about the net effect of such religions on the world, but said discussions are far from simple enough to allow one to definitively condemn or idealize religion without being off the mark in one way or another.

Third, I see no reason to believe that religion is going anywhere anytime soon, no matter hard some public figures try to combat its presence and sometimes basically preach against it. As far as I can see, the more realistic and useful approach is to support progressive, benign interpretations and sects of religion instead of aiming to get rid of religion altogether.

Aside from the fact that an absence of religion wouldn't even necessarily guarantee freedom of belief or abolish overly controlling laws and social norms (consider North Korea and China as examples), it seems to me that focusing on getting rid of religion instead of merely promoting progressive values misses the point and turns a pursuit of reason and tolerance into one of identity politics in a way that could alienate many potential allies of progressive thought among religious circles.

I don't think everyone who is anti-religious or anti-theistic is necessarily a bad or ill-intentioned person at all; in many cases, it seems to me that it is actually an important phase of personal growth that some people need to go through. However, the keyword here is "phase": I think it is crucial to grow past it at some point.

From what I have seen in multiple Arab atheist circles and multiple ex-Christian communities, for example, anti-religious bitterness and anger, as understandable as they are in many cases, do nothing useful for the rights or freedoms of said groups and often end up being unhealthy for the mental health of the person harboring them. In fact, sometimes they lead people to become exactly like the religious extremists they rail against, which demonstrates how counterproductive this kind of thinking can be.

I would much rather be defined by what I am rather than what I used to be as well as focus on promoting progressive values instead of opposing religion wholesale. This is where I think "New Atheism" misses the mark and why I no longer identify with it, despite my acknowledgement and appreciation of the fact that its vocal endorsement of secularism may have helped normalize atheism and non-mainstream worldviews in a useful way.
A while ago, I realized that the harm associated with a religion is based almost entirely on how much power and influence it has. The beliefs informing that power don't seem to matter that much.

IMO, if a religion becomes dominant in a society, it will become harmful. If the same religion becomes a minority in society, it will become benign.*

*unless the minority religion finds a way to isolate itself from larger society, but then it's still finding a way to be dominant... just over a smaller group.

This realization led me to a few conclusions:

  • Institutionalized religion really is a problem in and of itself. It's not just a matter of having the "right" religion in a position of power. Power + religion will be bad in every case.
  • The problem is with religious institutions much less than individual believers (though recognizing that every religious institution is made up of religious believers).
  • A religion's size translates into political power. If the majority of the population of a country belong to a particular church, for instance, that church will necessarily be a political force in society.
  • Small religions without much political power aren't really the problem. A Muslim in the West, for instance, or a Pagan, isn't going to impose their religion on non-believers or use their religion in a harmful way.
So I think that deconversion - at least from powerful, majority religions - is a valid goal and beneficial in and of itself, but only to a point: once the die-hard, devout believers are all that's left, then the religion won't have enough power to impose itself on non-believers or to compel dissenters and apostates to stay.

Religions have a "critical mass" based on their power and size. Above that critical mass, people will join the religion for the social benefit (or at least the lack of social cost or outright punishment), and then this increase in size tends to increase the power of the religion, which tends to push more people to join, etc., etc.

OTOH, below that critical mass, religions tend to lose their casual members: the small business person no longer has to rely on church as a place for business leads, for instance. This loss of membership causes a loss in power and influence, which reduces the social benefit of being in the religion, which reduces membership further, etc., etc. There ends up being a membership "floor", though: those die-hard members who don't care about the social benefit of their religion will stay no matter what... and that's fine. Generally, with just those people left, the religion ends up small and powerless, which has the effect of making the religion benign.

TLDR: I think that converting people away from religion is a valid goal in and of itself, but don't assume that someone who wants to reduce the size of major religions from current levels is out to turn every religious person into an atheist.

If a church in my community had no more influence than a mosque in my community has now, and if both of them only got treated as a charity when they were doing actual charitable work, I'd be fine with that.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
@Debater Slayer

To build on my last post: getting religions small and weak is how you get more of the good of religion with less of the bad of religion.

Even without political power, churches (and mosques, temples, gurdwaras, etc.) will still generally do charitable activities and provide services for their members. However, if those churches/mosques/temples/gurdwaras/etc. don't have political power, then they're not going to be killing apostates, getting LGBTQ people fired from civil service jobs, forbidding women from higher education, etc., etc.

A minority religion might, say, set up an orphanage, but they'll get proper oversight and regulation. They wouldn't have the power to make legal problems disappear or to get inspectors to just not bother with them, so it would be very difficult for a small, weak religion to create a Mount Cashel situation, for instance.

Small religions are often fine; it's the large ones that are the problem. And the way you turn a large religion into a small religion is by getting people to leave.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Vice versa, we shouldn't be ignore and downplay the good of religion and promoting their negative aspects. A balanced view is showing both in equal light. Acknowledging the good will help get through to religious folks better. If you ignore the good then it just comes across as incredibly biased and obviously deceptive.
There is no balanced view or vice versa with the Nazis. The point was to highlight it's unthinkable to glorify the Nazis and it doesn't matter what good came out of it, they are near universally--and rightfully so--condemned as a bad ideology. I did this to highlight that it would be inappropriate to apply the same line of thinking as featured in the OP to the Nazis despite the good that came.
It shouldn't be any different with the Bible. Just like Mein Kampf, it argues some points that are morally wrong and has motivated and justified a wide variety of wrongs and misdeeds. But Mein Kampf regularly gets banned. The Bible is actually worse (and, of course, Mein Kampf as well uses the Bible to justify itself and its ideology).
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
@Debater Slayer

To build on my last post: getting religions small and weak is how you get more of the good of religion with less of the bad of religion.

Even without political power, churches (and mosques, temples, gurdwaras, etc.) will still generally do charitable activities and provide services for their members. However, if those churches/mosques/temples/gurdwaras/etc. don't have political power, then they're not going to be killing apostates, getting LGBTQ people fired from civil service jobs, forbidding women from higher education, etc., etc.

A minority religion might, say, set up an orphanage, but they'll get proper oversight and regulation. They wouldn't have the power to make legal problems disappear or to get inspectors to just not bother with them, so it would be very difficult for a small, weak religion to create a Mount Cashel situation, for instance.

Small religions are often fine; it's the large ones that are the problem. And the way you turn a large religion into a small religion is by getting people to leave.
The ideas those "large religions" teach and promote didn't start suddenly when they grew from a small religion into a large one. They can still be just as hateful, just as damaging, and just as influential as the large ones. Such as, the First and Second Great Awakening in America were massively influential in shaping the American political/religious scene into what it is today, despite it being carried on the shoulders on many small churches and obscure ministers.
And, on the side, even the Roman Catholic Church does a lot of good works.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The ideas those "large religions" teach and promote didn't start suddenly when they grew from a small religion into a large one.
In some ways they did, I think.

Beliefs and approaches that work when a religion is on the fringes of society often don't work when the religion is part of the establishment. To become part of the establishment, a religion has to adapt and change.

Likewise, religions tend to lose ideas that only work as part of the establishment when they shrink and lose influence.

They can still be just as hateful, just as damaging, and just as influential as the large ones.
Sure... if they're insular. Significant power over a small number of people can still be harmful.

Such as, the First and Second Great Awakening in America were massively influential in shaping the American political/religious scene into what it is today, despite it being carried on the shoulders on many small churches and obscure ministers.
Sure, though in those cases, Protestantism in general often formed a power bloc that spanned across denominations.

And, on the side, even the Roman Catholic Church does a lot of good works.
And with reduced power and influence, its net good is even better now.

For the most part, authorities aren't handing over "wayward" women, First Nations kids, or police files on predator priests to Church officials any more, so their harm has lessened. In most countries, they've also changed their stance on issues like contraception, divorce, same-sex marriage, and abortion from "let's try to outlaw this for everyone" to "we request that our members not be involved in these things."

At the same time, they keep on running their food banks and St. Vincent de Paul Societies.

Seems like a win-win to me.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
In some ways they did, I think.

Beliefs and approaches that work when a religion is on the fringes of society often don't work when the religion is part of the establishment. To become part of the establishment, a religion has to adapt and change.

Likewise, religions tend to lose ideas that only work as part of the establishment when they shrink and lose influence.
Sometimes that's how it's done. Scientology heavily relies on celebrity appeal and recruitment to become more congruent with the establishment. But that didn't change them. That was deliberate and intentionally made a part of the design.
But with Christianity, that isn't necessarily so when it comes to their political and social power in America. Like the Southern Baptist Church. It is a denomination that came into existence because the Baptist Church became abolitionists, so there was a schism that formed the slave-supporting Southern Baptist Church. It's since grown into a major denomination, and still as full of prejudice as it was when it was created.
Much of the views of the sort of American Christian that has the rest of the world collectively shaking its head are not new views. They didn't emerge when Evangelicals and Republicans were politically wed. Today they are basically inseparable and their goals, hates, motives, and prejudices are largely and mostly the same, but their views--including an importance on voting for candidates who will promote Jehovah--isn't really new. It's not new today, it wasn't new when small religious groups banded together to promote and enforce what they think is a proper and moral society and ultimately had alcohol banned. Just like Churches who promote Young Earth Creationism and want it taught in schools. That was around even before Ken Ham. And it didn't start with the Scopes Monkey Trial, either.
The ideas of these large churches began long ago, coming from the small churches and ministers who had a small congregation even by today's standards. All that really changed when it fused with the Republican party is their capacity for damage was enhanced, going from adding "In God We Trust" on the money, putting "under God" in the pledge, to today's RFRA bills to allow discrimination as a protected right of the religious (though I don't think that's really much different than it was, such as with homosexuality being considered an illness up until not that long ago and cross dressing being a criminal offense).
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Worse with Atheism, using the same yardstick you are using.
You keep saying this, but you have provided nothing to support the claim, have not provided a central source of guidance and morality for atheism, you have not even suggested what it is about atheism that may lead to such a thing. And you do this while ignoring passages like Deuteronomy 13:6-9, where the Bible gives a very specific command to kill someone who is not even guilty of a real crime.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You keep saying this, but you have provided nothing to support the claim, have not provided a central source of guidance and morality for atheism, you have not even suggested what it is about atheism that may lead to such a thing. And you do this while ignoring passages like Deuteronomy 13:6-9, where the Bible gives a very specific command to kill someone who is not even guilty of a real crime.

A central source of guidance? Thats not relevant to your defence of atheists no matter who they are, what they have done, and your defiance to fact that these atrocities were done in the name of atheism, and with atheism as their main theme, philosophy and communication protocol. Still, its not the fault of atheism, its not the fault of all atheists, all atheists are not like that, atheists are in general wonderful people. I am showing your ignorance on the matter and your prejudice which will always make you bias and blind. When someone is so tribally inclined to safe guard the name of their tribe no matter what, its religious fanaticism. Nothing more nothing less.

When the Bolsheviks took over their path was to eradicate religion and "FORCED" secularisation. Their mission goes back prior to 1918 confiscating church property, Innocent priests and church employees were taken forcibly and sent to Gulag, Russian labour camps. Priests were dragged away from villages, under the protest of people, to never be seen again. Soviet policies aimed at strangling faith and promoting atheism is very well documented. The were the first to make this kind of brutal attack recorded history has ever seen. I am showing the same gutter game you play, and will insist on playing.

If you want bible passage cut and pastes I can give you plenty. But that's an uneducated, unsophisticated thing to do. Anyone can do that. There are lists on the internet. In sociology, what you are doing is absolutely antithetical. You should not be so driven by your prejudice. Its blinding you. What ever bad experience you had with religion is by far anecdotal so opt to study. Some innocent child or grown up somewhere does not deserve your blind hatred. Either study philosophy or sociology of religion. Something.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I have long ceased to think highly of pretty much any of the "New Atheists," most especially the "Four Horsemen." Online atheism in general has also had this creeping alt-rightness to it: too often do I hear SJW used as a pejorative, anti-feminism, the old "facts don't care about your feelings" canard (despite the absence of facts in their position), etc.

Nearly every online atheist group on Facebook I've ever seen is a toxic cesspool, and they all worship the ground Dawkins and Shermer and Hitchens walk on. Very sour look, to me.
 
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