King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
Has Palestine voiced what land they want? Are they fighting for something?
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What’s Palestine’s objective?
- Thread starter King Phenomenon
- Start date
epronovost
Well-Known Member
The Palestinian authority's objective is to keep control of the land they were attributed after the peace accord of 1948 which includes the West Bank of the Jordan, eastern Jerusalem and Gaza. Currently, they are mostly fighting to survive as Israel is slowly stealing away their land and expulsing them. Hamas, which controls Gaza and is officially the opposition party to the recognized Palestinian authorities has still officially on paper the goal of destroying Israel, but the US government intelligence agency as well as the Israeli one's know this to be political bluster upon which the current Hamas leader don't even pay respect anymore as they seek a two State solution too though with a full right of return for the 1.5 million exiled Palestinians which of course is completely unacceptable for the Israeli government.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The objective is to get rid of Israel one way or another.
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
I think a problem is a finite resource problem, likely coupled with natural demographic differential trends, the latter being something that no power in history ever controlled. (it probably isn't like our continent, yet replete with vast land resources) That is to say, you cannot and should not make natural demographic shifts illegal, of any population, as it is just what will naturally happen in a finite area situation where population a, b, x, and y etc. exist. A static equilibrium will never exist between those variables, because all populations on the planet (each defined by whatever array of factors you wish) always desire growth. So, recognize 'human' as the only identity that matters, you might argue. The problem is, that has never really been done, as there was always some layer of identity to encapsulate you. You were a roman, or an american, you followed this religion, or had this cultural style. All things that were valuable, just because 'human' always gives himself more definition in this fashion. I don't see exactly where the solution is, but I like to believe that there is a 'whole,' which we do not face easily, as nature communicates to us in the plain that we are part of a more ineffable mystery than language can define
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King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
Israel’s wrong for violating 1948 peace treaty and Hamas is wrong for wanting to violate it as well.
why don’t the ‘Palestinian authority’ as you put it remove Hamas?
King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
Is there an actual line that each side can’t cross in the 1948 peace treaty. Actual locations, markers landmarks etc. or is it vaguely written which is fueling a freakshow of who owns what?
Well I guess it wouldn’t be a Freakshow because there has to be a few Jews in east Jerusalem and a few Arabs in West Jerusalem no?
I mean there might be a few Irish lads living there as well, no?
how many Jews in East Jerusalem is too much? is there a number specified in the treaty?
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epronovost
Well-Known Member
Of course. Very clear down to which streets of Jerusalem are to the Israeli side and which one is on the Palestinian side. They are frontiers.
It's not about Jews living in East Jerusalem. It's about Israel occupying and annexing that territory and expulsing its inhabitants to clear the place for their own population.
epronovost
Well-Known Member
Currently, Hamas doesn't want to violate the frontier of the peace treaty of 1948. The right of return of 1.5 million Palestinian is perfectly legal under international law and the Geneva conventions.
It can't. It doesn't control Gaza nor has the strength nor the desire to start and win a civil war in between Palestinians. Hamas is very popular amongst the population for its hardline against the Israeli government and for its financing of public services in Gaza.
King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
How many Arabs in east Jerusalem is too much? Do the Jews think there’s too many? do you have any numbers? It boils down to numbers no? Do u have details on the expulsions?
King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
Well then Jews should let the 1.5 million back in then.
Do you know if Jews have an acceptable and sane rebuttal as to why they won’t allow it?
epronovost
Well-Known Member
there are 8.7 million people in Israel and there are families living in the homes of those exiled Palestinians since 1948. Where are you going to put 1.5 million people coming back to their towns. There are no infrastructures in place for such a rapid increase in population. There would be litigation over property and land access. It would be a humanitarian disaster for the country and would stir civil strife as people are displaced and infrastructures crumble.
epronovost
Well-Known Member
It's not about how many Arabs there are either. It's about who controls it. Which State is sovereign on that territory. For Jewish colonists, expulsion of every single one of the Palestinians of the territory of Israel is a goal. For others, less extreme, it's simply about sovereignty. The Israeli Left is notoriously opposed to the colonization and the land theft at all. If you want detail on the expulsion and land grabs of Israel you can always read the wikipedia articles on it.
King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
Yeah I did some reading on it. It appears that the Jews are basically taking over in areas where they shouldn’t.
I think the Jews are in the wrong. I’m starting to be on the Palestinians side. They seem like they just want to live in peace and not be persecuted and have equality with their Jewish neighbors
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United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia
You can see here the original plan. Of course, this was made irrelevant when it was promptly dismissed by the Arabs.
And made even less relevant when Arab terrorists continuously crossed the new border created after the 1948 Independence War during the inter-war period (1949-1967).
King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
Yeah but it looks like Jews have done a lot worse with land agreements
Such as?
Great. Let's get down to the nit and grit of history.
First, what's Israel's deal with Judea and Samaria?
Thousands of years ago, Jews lived there. This is evidenced by biblical, historical and archeological records. Several exiles removed them from there, but they stilled dreamed for many thousands of years of returning. Naturally, though, successive foreign conquests brought with them foreign settlers, such as the people we now call the Samaritans and the Arabs who now identify as Palestinians.
The origin of the term Palestine itself is debatable. Most believe that it comes from the Greek pronunciation of the P'lishtim, or Philistines in English, the possibly Minoan-originating people that lived on the coast of Israel, but some think that it comes from the Greek "palaistís" or wrestler, which would be a partial translation of the name Israel, which means "wrestles with God" in Hebrew, echoing back to the biblical story of Jacob wrestling with the angel. Either way, the name "Palestine" has nothing to do with the Arabs that now use that term. And in fact, they did not identify with the term even at the time of the British Mandate, but merely saw themselves as part of the Arab collective. It was due to the machinations of the British and the French that we now have the modern borders that created Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and other Arab countries, seemingly dividing the Arab people into geographical ethnicities: The Jordanian Arabs, the Syrians, the Lebanese, etc. These are, however, artificial divisions, although it's possible that nowadays they've started to root themselves more in the mentality of the Arab people. By the way, the Lebanese aren't the original people of Lebanon. Those were the Phoenicians. And the original Syrians were the Assyrians. But people get around, you know?
What's Israel's deal the Judea and Samaria today?
As we've established, the Jews dreamed of returning to all parts of Israel that they used to live in thousands of years ago. However, when, after years of working hard to convince the world powers to allow them to establish a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, the nations agreed but gave Judea and Samaria to the Arabs, the Jews (in general; you can never expect 100% agreement) resigned themselves to taking what they could get. The original partition plan established what would be known as Israel mostly in areas that either had large Jewish populations or were largely unsettled by any people (for example, the large Negev desert area), whilst the Arab country would be established where there were large Arab populations, including Judea and Samaria.
The Jews ultimately accepted the offer while the Arabs didn't. Again, though at this point there were some young new Arab countries, the Arabs living in the British Mandate still viewed themselves as part of the Arab collective. So when the foreign Arab leaders told them to turn down the deal and to attack the Jews, they did. The Jews proceeded with the partition plan, and were promptly attacked by the neighboring Arab countries. The local Arabs - those that turned down Israel's offer of peace and citizenship in the young Jewish country - either joined the ranks of the attacking Arab countries or ran away. Either way, they were convinced that their armies would annihilate Israel and they would return as conquerors and settle not only in Judea and Samaria, but also in Jewish cities such as Tel Aviv and Petach Tikva.
1948 and 1949 came and went, and Israel was victorious. After the war, armistice agreements between Israel and the enemy Arab countries were agreed upon, once again dividing the territory. Here's a 1955 UN map:
You may notice something curious: No country known as "Palestine" appears anywhere! Why was that so?
The reason being that Jordan received control of most of the area originally allotted to the Arabs living in British Palestine. Some small portions were handed to Syria in the Golan and the Gaza Strip was given to Egypt. No new Arab country was founded at the time.
The Inter-war Period:
Let's move on. Jordan was now controlling Judea and Samaria. At the time, this area threatened Israel because multiple terrorists crossed the border - the Israeli-Jordanian border, that is - entering from Jordan-controlled Judea and Samaria into Israel and attacking the Israelis. You can read about them here and the original Israeli plan here. The bottom line is that this area of Jordan posed a significant threat to the safety of Israel.
The 1967 Six Day War:
Israel launched the war after having been threatened by the neighboring Arab countries, and in particular, by Nasser, the President of Egypt. I won't get into all of the details of the war. For what's relevant for this subject, suffice it be said that Israel had reached a pre-war agreement with King Hussein of Jordan that the Jordanians would not enter the upcoming war. However, Hussein, upon hearing false claims of victory from Egyptian, Syrian and other countries' radio broadcasts, decided he wanted a piece of the action and began bombing Jewish neighborhoods in West Jerusalem (under Israeli control since 1949). After much debate, the Israeli government decided to retaliate, and proceeded to storm Jordanian-controlled Eastern Jerusalem. They were victorious on that front. However, in order to properly divert the Jordanians' attention, the attack was three-pronged: Other Israeli forces attacked Jordan at Latrun and Qalqilya, and these attacks proved successful as well. Israel proceeded to move further into Jordan-controlled Samaria to clear out the Jordanian artillery forces that had been threatening Israeli cities and towns outside of Judea and Samaria. From there the battle moved to Jenin, being that it was a key strategic location. The Israelis hoped that capturing Jenin would convince Jordan to back off. Jordan continued to wage war, and so Israel proceed to capture more and more territory, until Samaria was entirely under Israeli control.
Around this time, the Jordanians retreated from Judea and Israel took control of that area as well. Thus, the whole of Judea and Samaria came under Israeli control.
The post-War period:
The first Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria were constructed by returnees to places previously populated by Jews during the British Mandate: That's East Jerusalem, Gush Etzion, Hebron and some other places. Later, particularly from the mid-70s and onwards, many new towns and even cities were established.
Israel has not officially recognized the Fourth Geneva Convention as valid in terms of Judea and Samaria, being that Jordan originally captured Judea and Samaria against the 1947-48 UN partition plan, during the '48-'49 War period, which means that those areas legally never belonged to Jordan, at least per UN agreements, and therefore, in Israeli hands, they are not considered "occupied" by Israel, thus not subject to the agreements of the Convention. However, Israel, on its own accord, decided to follow at least some of the Convention rulings when dealing with Judea and Samaria, which created a whole load of internal Israeli legal issues with the creation and expansion of new towns and cities.
Today:
The Oslo Accords in the '90s brought the creation of the Palestinian Authority, an autonomous Arab government controlling Area A and Gaza and some portions of Area B and the IDF withdrew from these areas. Together with the creation of the PA, the Arabs were given weaponry and promptly used them against Israel. This brought upon the lead-off to the Second Intifada and the Intifada itself, where hundreds of Israelis were murdered in the five year period between 2000 and 2005 and many more injured. To put an end to the violence, Israel began Operation Defensive Shield to confiscate weaponry in the PA area. The operation was mostly successful with regards to collecting weaponry, but was unsuccessful in dampening the violence of the Intifada.
Zionism is an integral part of Judaism, whether you like it or not.
Neither did I, yet you insinuate this. There are Reform anti-zionists, that's true. In fact, from what I know about Reform, one of its main founding principals was anti-Zionism. There are also extremist fringe Ultra Orthodox groups like Neturei Karta, except what you may not know as that they're against mass active Zionism as is it has been for the last 200 years or so. However, when the Jewish Messiah comes and the Temple drops down from heaven, you can bet that they'll hop on a plane straight to Israel. Ask them.
However, to suggest that Zionism is not a part of Judaism is sheer delusion, either willfully, as you'll find in the case of some non-Orthodox groups, or out of ignorance or outright denial, as you'll find in the case of some Orthodox groups. And if you want, we can look at some of the sources together, some time (don't have time today and can't tomorrow, but you can PM me or start a thread on the subject).
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