The Crusades

EiNsTeiN said:

What are you saying guys?...
Everytime I decide not to be posting again, I find it hard for me not to talk while these stuff are being said..

Click to expand...

You have sworn off posting on this thread a number of times. Once more won't hurt.

Well, I will have to confess that I really discoverd (these few days) that we were taught the history in a poor acuracy in our curriculum
Thats why I'm starting now to look for new references, although non of them denyed some facts I knew before...

Click to expand...

Glad that you are beginning to see the light.

What?....Is that another use of the concept that "you know everything'' or what?
Words fails me too!

Click to expand...

I am not quite sure what you are attempting to say here but it is a well documented fact that Egyptian state TV broadcasts the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and it is also a well documented fact that it is a fake anti-semitic pile of garbage (even on wikipedia).

Man!...when is this going to end?
First of all, what slaves are you talking about??
Second, most of the muslim scientists and philosophers, and inventors at this era where Spanish...so where comes this slave thing you are saying?...Please check Andalus at the Wikipedia..

Click to expand...

the fact that muslims held slaves from everywhere they conquered isn't exactly a secret. Are you denying that muslim imperialists held slaves?
It isn't even a question of IF they had slaves, it is how many and new research from Ohio State University says the number is much larger than ever thought before:

Study from Ohio State University -
COLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.

Also you can read about it the Guardian here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1166720,00.html
North African pirates abducted and enslaved more than 1 million Europeans between 1530 and 1780 in a series of raids which depopulated coastal towns from Sicily to Cornwall, according to new research.

Or here in the Washington Times:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040310-115506-8528r.htm


Personally I think Wikipedia is an unreliable source but if you like it, you can read up a little about the Muslim imperialist slave drivers here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

Second of all, it wasn't the Spanich who kicked muslims out, it was the Portuguese...
And non of the history books and references mentiond any violance in Spain during the 800 years of Muslims there...

Click to expand...

I didn't say the Spanish kicked them out. I said the Spanish fought to kick them out which means that the Spanish were not happy with their imperialist rulers.

Thanks for the advice...but this will not change the fact that Crusades were due to other issues...

Click to expand...

That sounds a bit closed minded to decide what you will believe before you do the research.

It's like the humanity gave its history to you or something...believe me, you are not an enough reference, niether do your site!

Click to expand...

I can't understand what you are trying to say. Maybe you shouldn't type when you are angry.

The problem here which I'm resigning for, is that every one views history from a very different perspective, and no actuall unbiased reference...

Check my thread concerning the issue please:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45158

When you are going to be more objective, and more unbiased( specially in these historical events), then I would come back..

But till this happens, no use of our discussion I guess, just will go on with the same manner...Useless!!

Click to expand...

So did you give up again? I am not a believer in historical relativism. Something actually happened. There are many things that we are not sure of, and there are many things we are sure of. To close your eyes to historical facts does not make them go away.

Once more won't hurt

Click to expand...

Right..!
I'm just here to comment on this Egyptian braodcasting thing...
The protocols have never been puplished before in the media...maybe in books only..
It's even forbidden in the Egyptian law to puplish them on Tv..

I dont know really what are you talking about here...Give me when did this happen for instance..

So did you give up again? I am not a believer in historical relativism. Something actually happened. There are many things that we are not sure of, and there are many things we are sure of. To close your eyes to historical facts does not make them go away.

Click to expand...

something must have happend...But is what the history writers are writing is the truth?...who knows, you cant prove it anyway...
And indeed history is relativistic..

Wikipedia said:

According to that law, slaves are allowed to earn their living if they opted for that, otherwise it is the owner’s (master) duty to provide for that. They also can’t be forced to earn money for their masters unless with an agreement between the slave and the master. This concept is called “مخارجة” in the Islamic jurisprudence. If the slave agrees to that and he would like the money s/he earns to be counted toward his/her emancipation then this has to be written in the form of a contract between the slave and the master.

Click to expand...

(although it's not an Islamic war tradition, it was the tradition of wars in general in that era, which misunderstood as an islamic tradition)

It's also in the Wikipedia refernces these quotes:

''Judaism existed among certain Arab tribes as well as Christianity, and like them Islam did not blatantly out law slavery; Islam did however blatantly outlawed chattel enslavement. The Qu'ran with every reference to slavery ask the believer to free the slave as atonement for sin, the term "emancipating a slave and feeding an orphan" are repeated constantly throughout the Qu'ran as acts which gain God's favor.''

"They are your brothers whom Allah placed under your hands. Feed them with what you eat, clothe them with what you wear and do not impose duties upon them which will overcome them. If you so impose duties, then assist them"
* "Whoever kills his slave, we will kill him"
* "Whoever slaps his slave or strikes him, his atonement is to free him" (narrated by Muslim by the way of ibn Umar).

May I ask you about the slaves in Europe?
May I ask you about the slaves grabbed to America (When it was European colonies)?

EiNsTeiN said:

Right..!
I'm just here to comment on this Egyptian braodcasting thing...
The protocols have never been puplished before in the media...maybe in books only..
It's even forbidden in the Egyptian law to puplish them on Tv..

I dont know really what are you talking about here...Give me when did this happen for instance..

something must have happend...But is what the history writers are writing is the truth?...who knows, you cant prove it anyway...
And indeed history is relativistic..

Click to expand...

ok. I notice you simply ignored almost everything I wrote. Does that mean you accept it as true now or what?

As far as Egypt and the Protocols go, you admit that it is published in book form? Is that any better?

Here is documented proof from the Middle East Media Research Institute:
http://www.memri.org/egypt.html (use this link to get to links below)

Special Dispatch Series - No. 671 - Egypt, March 2, 2004
Al-Ahram on the Aftermath of a MEMRI Report about the Display of the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' at the Alexandria Library
On December 3, 2003, MEMRI released a report [1] from the Egyptian weekly Al-Usbu' about a display at the Alexandria Library in Egypt of 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion' as an authentic document, placed next to the Torah in an exhibit on Jewish books, as well as a high-ranking museum official's accompanying antisemitic comments. Following MEMRI's report, the museum came under pressure, including strong criticism from the U.S. State Department, the United Nations, and the U.S. Embassy in Cairo, which conducted a visit to the library and confirmed the display of the Protocols, as well as its subsequent removal....

And as I promised, on state TV. (thank you very much).

Special Dispatch Series - No. 309 - Egypt, December 6, 2001
Ramadan TV Special: The Protocols of the Elders of Zion
During the second half of Ramadan, a number of television stations, including Egyptian stations, will be screening the thirty-part series "Horseman Without a Horse," starring the well-known Egyptian actor Muhammad Subhi and a cast of 400 others from Egypt, Syria, and France. The series, whose budget ran six to eight million Egyptian pounds, was produced by Arab Radio and Television (ART), established in 1993, which broadcasts to the Middle East, North America, Latin America, Australia, and Africa.[1]
In a report on the series, the Egyptian weekly Roz Al-Youssuf[2] described it as the "first of its kind" – both artistically, as it is the first time a single actor plays 14 different characters, and in the way in which it deals with the issues it raises. The following are excerpts from a report on the series: "For the first time, the series' writer courageously tackles the 24 Protocols of the Elders of Zion, revealing them and clarifying that they are the central line that still, to this very day, dominates Israel's policy, political aspirations, and racism… The series' first scene is set in 1948, after the retreat of the four Arab armies and the Zionist invasion of the land of Palestine. From this point, there is a flashback to the mid-19th century."


Sorry to disappoint you. I know it is difficult when what you have always believed turns out not to be true.

BTW - Egypt also teaches that the Holocaust didn't happen. Do you want to deny that one too? I'll post the link to it after you deny it.

Sorry to disappoint you. I know it is difficult when what you have always believed turns out not to be true.

BTW - Egypt also teaches that the Holocaust didn't happen. Do you want to deny that one too? I'll post the link to it after you deny it

Click to expand...

Dont rush...Im not dissapointed...or even botherd by your post...
I did actually expect this reply from you, exactly as it is, so I didnt wonder..

The first part of your reply concerned books and newspapers, which I didnt deny to be puplishing the protocols...
The second part concerns the silly series ''fares bila gawad'' which was a comedy series rather than a serious one as your media is trying to tell...
Neither of the protocols were indicated in the series, just the name of the book..
And as I mentiond, this is a comedy series, and Mohammed Sobhy is a well know comedy actor...

So actually, I'm not turned out with my believs..

BTW - Egypt also teaches that the Holocaust didn't happen. Do you want to deny that one too? I'll post the link to it after you deny it.

Click to expand...

mmm...As a previous school student, I deny this sentence...
what do you mean by '' Egypt also teaches us'' ??
Egypt is a country if you didnt notice, and if you mean the curriculum, I would like to tell you that we didnt even learn about Europe and therby the Holocaust..
We studied Egypt's history only, and non of our text books concerned the Holocaust..
I dont care about your refernces, cuz I simply can send you a copy of my text book!!

Non of us by the way deny the holocaust...It's an historical event...
Dont pre-assume stuff...

I also want to know, what is the problem with puplishing the protocols?
I thought it's puplished worldwide..
Or is it because we are Arabs, i.e always under the microscope?

Wikipedia said:

In October 2002, a private Egyptian television company Dream TV produced a 41-part "historical drama" A Horseman Without a Horse (Fares Bela Gewad), largely based on the Protocols,[50] which ran on 17 Arabic-language satellite television channels, including government-owned Egypt Television (ETV), for a month, causing concerns in the West.[51] Egypt's Information Minister Safwat El-Sherif announced that the series "contains no antisemitic material".[52]

Click to expand...

Oh my God...''Largely based on the protocols''???
This series was innocent like cartoons...it was just a silly series which had a huge propaganda for nothing...Even people didnt care much to finish it...I (Myself) regreted the time I spent watching such a silly series, which I thought is a serious one discussing something..

EiNsTeiN said:

I also want to know, what is the problem with puplishing the protocols?
I thought it's puplished worldwide..
Or is it because we are Arabs, i.e always under the microscope?

Click to expand...

the problem is that not only was it published but put on display in the alexandria library and Egypt attempted to pass it off a an authentic document rather than the pathetic anti-semitic hateful garbage that it is.

Lying and racism are a problem in my book. Sorry you don't agree.

EiNsTeiN said:

Dont rush...Im not dissapointed...or even botherd by your post...
I did actually expect this reply from you, exactly as it is, so I didnt wonder..

The first part of your reply concerned books and newspapers, which I didnt deny to be puplishing the protocols...
The second part concerns the silly series ''fares bila gawad'' which was a comedy series rather than a serious one as your media is trying to tell...
Neither of the protocols were indicated in the series, just the name of the book..
And as I mentiond, this is a comedy series, and Mohammed Sobhy is a well know comedy actor...

So actually, I'm not turned out with my believs..


mmm...As a previous school student, I deny this sentence...
what do you mean by '' Egypt also teaches us'' ??
Egypt is a country if you didnt notice, and if you mean the curriculum, I would like to tell you that we didnt even learn about Europe and therby the Holocaust..
We studied Egypt's history only, and non of our text books concerned the Holocaust..
I dont care about your refernces, cuz I simply can send you a copy of my text book!!

Non of us by the way deny the holocaust...It's an historical event...
Dont pre-assume stuff...

Click to expand...

ok. here you go.

Special Dispatch Series - No. 782 - Egypt, September 10, 2004
Former Editor-in-Chief of Egyptian Government Paper: 'We were Educated from Childhood that the Holocaust is a Big Lie'



Next, I didn't say "Egypt also teaches us" so I don't know what you are talking about.


finally, it is a logical impossibility to "pre-assume" something.

EiNsTeiN said:

The problem here which I'm resigning for, is that every one views history from a very different perspective, and no actuall unbiased reference...

Check my thread concerning the issue please:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45158

When you are going to be more objective, and more unbiased( specially in these historical events), then I would come back..

But till this happens, no use of our discussion I guess, just will go on with the same manner...Useless!!

Click to expand...

Perhaps it will be useless. After all, it's not like I was unwilling to accept the sins of Christianity. :areyoucra

Do you really believe that the Islamist intentions were to save the poor Christians from Byzantine rule?

Click to expand...

Yes this is part of Islam. If any group of people are opressed by there rulers we have to save them. Yes its as if we're super hereos. We dont do this today mainly cause we are ruled by opressors in the first place.

"Arabs are not Semites because they're descended from Ishmael" - 100% wrong!

Arabs are semites but they are not descended from Ishmael. If Abraham and his family lived around 2,000 B.C. then Arabs were already long established as a people. Who built Ur in Chaldea for a start - Abrahams home town!

Let us deal in historical reality rather than Islamic fantasy. Try reading Genesis for a start.

Delamere said:

"Arabs are not Semites because they're descended from Ishmael" - 100% wrong!

Arabs are semites but they are not descended from Ishmael. If Abraham and his family lived around 2,000 B.C. then Arabs were already long established as a people. Who built Ur in Chaldea for a start - Abrahams home town!

Let us deal in historical reality rather than Islamic fantasy. Try reading Genesis for a start.

Click to expand...

You're trading one stupid fantasy for another stupid fantasy. Try sources from the time period, not biblical sheep.

Delamere said:

"Arabs are not Semites because they're descended from Ishmael" - 100% wrong!

Arabs are semites but they are not descended from Ishmael. If Abraham and his family lived around 2,000 B.C. then Arabs were already long established as a people. Who built Ur in Chaldea for a start - Abrahams home town!

Let us deal in historical reality rather than Islamic fantasy. Try reading Genesis for a start.

Click to expand...

Chaldeans build Ur of Chaldea - not Arabs. The Chaldeans still exist and they are not Arabs, and many of them would be offended by those claiming they are. True, many Chaldeans converted to Islam and merged into greater Arab society, but not all did, and many are still Chaldeans, and separate from greater society around them. For example, the Chaldean Catholic Church in Iraq, especially Mosul, (and now, many in Jordan due to the war in Iraq), which answers to Rome.

Now, back onto the topic:

The Crusades were a genocidal rampage by the Roman Church against any perceived to oppose it. Millions of Jews, Muslims, and non-Roman Christians (Oriental Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Arians, and more) were massacred wholesale, in every part of the world Rome could reach, from Sweden to Tunisia, from Portugal to Jordan.

Elessar said:

Chaldeans build Ur of Chaldea - not Arabs. The Chaldeans still exist and they are not Arabs, and many of them would be offended by those claiming they are. True, many Chaldeans converted to Islam and merged into greater Arab society, but not all did, and many are still Chaldeans, and separate from greater society around them. For example, the Chaldean Catholic Church in Iraq, especially Mosul, (and now, many in Jordan due to the war in Iraq), which answers to Rome.

Now, back onto the topic:

The Crusades were a genocidal rampage by the Roman Church against any perceived to oppose it. Millions of Jews, Muslims, and non-Roman Christians (Oriental Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Arians, and more) were massacred wholesale, in every part of the world Rome could reach, from Sweden to Tunisia, from Portugal to Jordan.

Click to expand...

A big black mark against the so called " love and peace" preached by the churches. Jesus died for us to love, but look how we used to show it lol.