Is Yahweh A Liar? Yes, He Is. I Can Prove It.

SeekingAllTruth · Mar 19, 2021

leroy said:
Irrelevant Tacitus is not from the 1st century, so by your standards it doesn’t count

you said: (implying that you only accept 1st century sources)

So ether change your standards or reject the existence of Pilate

My best guess is that your rejection of Christianity and the existence of Jesus and the Disciples is caused by you applying very high and unrealistic standards of evidence.

>>>>>Irrelevant Tacitus is not from the 1st century, so by your standards it doesn’t count

Fine. I'm good with that. What do you know of outside the Bible that mentions Pilate? if nothing then I rest my case.

Subduction Zone · Mar 19, 2021

leroy said:
The way I understand that verse, is that Paul went to Damascus for whatever purpose (an unknown purpose), and if he finds some Christians in the way he will arrest them…..is my understanding correct?................do you understand something different?....
(I am just sharing my own layman understanding of the verse, I have no idea if I am supposed to understand something different)

What is your point?

How that verse does support you? I honestly don’t see your point and I honestly don’t understand your argument.

Why is Paul’s goal relevant

Wow! It is right there. He went to Damascus specifically to arrest Jews in Damascus. How could it be any clearer?

And patience, we are getting there.

We Never Know · Mar 19, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Then you have not studied the Bible or Paul. It tells you why he went there in the Bible. You should try to do some of your own homework at times. And doing your homework includes more than trying to cherry pick verses that support you.

9 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

That's why "he was going" but jesus intervened and when he went on this say and arrived, it was for something different

But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. 4 And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Subduction Zone · Mar 19, 2021

We Never Know said:
That's why "he was going" but jesus intervened and when he went on this say and arrived, it was for something different

But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. 4 And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

And we are discussing why Paul is not reliable. You are missing the point because it has not been made yet. Patience needs to be practiced. I have not made a conclusion yet.

Redemptionsong · Mar 19, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
I guess God send us to hell to burn to a crisp forever out of love too. And please, none of this "God doesn't send us to hell, we send ourselves to hell." Like hell we do! That was just invented to get God off the hook for something he's clearly guilty of doing. God is the one that pronounces the sentence, he's the one that sends us there.

Are you without sin?

Why should God, who is perfect and pure, wish to spend eternity with unrepentant sinners?

leroy · Mar 19, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
>>>>>Irrelevant Tacitus is not from the 1st century, so by your standards it doesn’t count

Fine. I'm good with that. What do you know of outside the Bible that mentions Pilate? if nothing then I rest my case.

So do you reject the historicity of Pilate?

Subduction Zone · Mar 19, 2021

leroy said:
So do you reject the historicity of Pilate?

Getting some facts right does not make a source reliable. One needs more than that. You are back to the Spiderman problem. Pilate was a real person. Known by everyone in the area at the time. That he was part of the story is not very strong evidence for it at all.

On the other hand getting facts wrong is a very bad sign. Such as the errors in Luke in regards to the Nativity.

leroy · Mar 19, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Wow! It is right there. He went to Damascus specifically to arrest Jews in Damascus. How could it be any clearer?

And patience, we are getting there.

My understanding is that arresting Jews was not the main goal of the trip, but rather it seems to be some sort of secondary goal……..to me it seems that Paul is saying that he is getting the letters from the Priest “just in case he finds any Christians.”

But again this is just my own personal understanding from reading the text in Spanish, you obviously have more knowledge that I do with respect to that verse, so ok I accept your interpretation “Paul went to Damascus specifically to arrest Christians”….then what? whats your argument?

leroy · Mar 19, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Getting some facts right does not make a source reliable. One needs more than that. You are back to the Spiderman problem. Pilate was a real person. Known by everyone in the area at the time. That he was part of the story is not very strong evidence for it at all.

On the other hand getting facts wrong is a very bad sign. Such as the errors in Luke in regards to the Nativity.

The original argument was that Jesus and the disciples never existed because we dont have extra biblical sources form the 1st century.

I simply replied by saying that with those standards in mind, one should also reject the existence of Pilate.

Subduction Zone · Mar 19, 2021

leroy said:
My understanding is that arresting Jews was not the main goal of the trip, but rather it seems to be some sort of secondary goal……..to me it seems that Paul is saying that he is getting the letters from the Priest “just in case he finds any Christians.”

But again this is just my own personal understanding from reading the text in Spanish, you obviously have more knowledge that I do with respect to that verse, so ok I accept your interpretation “Paul went to Damascus specifically to arrest Christians”….then what? whats your argument?

You are ignoring the first half of the first sentence that I quoted. His goal and reasons were clear.

Subduction Zone · Mar 19, 2021

leroy said:
The original argument was that Jesus and the disciples never existed because we dont have extra biblical sources form the 1st century.

I simply replied by saying that with those standards in mind, one should also reject the existence of Pilate.

Pilate is not a source for the existence of Jesus. There are no writings by him about Jesus so his existence does not help you very much at all. Once again you are making the Spiderman error.

SeekingAllTruth · Mar 19, 2021

leroy said:
So do you reject the historicity of Pilate?

I'm good with Tacitus mentioning him. He might have been using Roman records that have been lost. If you were to ask me "can you prove Pilate was a real person?" I'd have to say, "No, I cannot."

SeekingAllTruth · Mar 19, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
Are you without sin?

Why should God, who is perfect and pure, wish to spend eternity with unrepentant sinners?

I don't believe in the concept of sin. There's just what man says is right and wrong in the law of the land. "Sin" is just another invention of the church to put guilt on us so we have to go to them to get Jesus. And a God who is a little offended by a white lie is a god not worth worshiping.

leroy · Mar 19, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
You are ignoring the first half of the first sentence that I quoted. His goal and reasons were clear.

Ok I trust you, Paul went to Damascus to arrest Christians……….then what?

leroy · Mar 19, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Pilate is not a source for the existence of Jesus. There are no writings by him about Jesus so his existence does not help you very much at all. Once again you are making the Spiderman error.

Pilate is not a source for the existence of Jesus.

Strawman,

leroy · Mar 19, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
I'm good with Tacitus mentioning him. He might have been using Roman records that have been lost. If you were to ask me "can you prove Pilate was a real person?" I'd have to say, "No, I cannot."

Well do you realize that your skepticism is far too extreme?..... historians don’t reject the historicity of Pilate

Subduction Zone · Mar 19, 2021

leroy said:
Ok I trust you, Paul went to Damascus to arrest Christians……….then what?

That is quite a problem. How could he have done so?

Subduction Zone · Mar 19, 2021

leroy said:
Strawman,

You don't know what a strawman is. Try again.

Redemptionsong · Mar 19, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
I don't believe in the concept of sin. There's just what man says is right and wrong in the law of the land. "Sin" is just another invention of the church to put guilt on us so we have to go to them to get Jesus. And a God who is a little offended by a white lie is a god not worth worshiping.

'How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?' [Job 25:4-6]

People, even church people, can let us down. I believe the promises of God hold true, through life, and beyond death.

leroy · Mar 19, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
That is quite a problem. How could he have done so?

Done what? Why couldn’t Paul arrest people?……….elaborate your argument.

How do any of your comments show that Paul is not a reliable source?

Is Yahweh A Liar? Yes, He Is. I Can Prove It.

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