MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
Basically suffering itself is a dangerous disease, and it caused imperfection in the heavens (the universe) which is the thing God loves.
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Is Satan Evil?
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
Basically suffering itself is a dangerous disease, and it caused imperfection in the heavens (the universe) which is the thing God loves.
Is God not capable of eliminating suffering immediately? How did it come about, if not generated or created by God in some way? God can not protect the things that God loves? Could you explain more about what is going on or the problems and how it all occurred in your opinion and where or how you derived such ideas?
Not it the Christian understanding. There was no sickness before Adam sinned and at the end there is no sickness at the end. In the middle, Jesus healed all who were sick as he was sent to destroy the works of the Devil
This is precisely what i meant, belief that god created good but bad created itself
So you are saying sickness, cancer, the black death etc made themselves? Then what point god who was, by that standard, not a creator at all. Who had no control over what happened on earth, cannot have been omni anything.
Oh, and according to the Bible god created the devil who, according to the book was a saint compared to the genocidal god. So god sent jesus to destroy the works of his own creation?
Have you actually considered this Christian understanding?
That means that sickness is considered the work of the Devil?
Deuteronomy 28:61
The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed.
Deuteronomy 28:27
The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors and scabs and itch from which you cannot be cured.
Deuteronomy 32:39
Look now; I myself am he! There is no other god but me! I am the one who kills and gives life; I am the one who wounds and heals; no one can be rescued from my powerful hand!
Lamentations 3:37
37Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? 38Do not both adversity and good come from the mouth of the Most High?
Psalm 75:7
But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Who is responsible for it all, who caused it, who brought it about, who spoke it into existence at every point?
Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4 has the same incident mentioned:
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Exodus 10:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them
1 Kings 22:23
“So you see, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all your prophets. For the LORD has pronounced your doom.”
God or Devil?
Mono or Duo?
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
There was a rebelion in Heaven lead by a formidable devil who claimed that he hated God for He was not violent, in which suffering got loose on passive Jesus resulting in a imperfection in which this world was formed. You dont just eliminate suffering, it would be genocide, those who suffer have a reasonable plight, but on the other hand God must to a degree end its own pain and suffering, and in order to do this you must collateraly end violence, and it must be done as a pacifist, as equanimity is the finisher of negatory-demons. The God of the centralized metabolism of singularity may be God if it suffers minimally.
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gurudavid
New Member
Hello.
I find it interesting that one of the things that people often ignore is the behaviours and nature of humanity.
As someone with the Vartis viewpoint I don't think in terms of good or evil as a way of explaing things. I have found that when I try to do so there are so many inconsistencies that it makes my head spin.
We believe that there is a simplier explanation. In Nature good and evil is a construct that is limited to humanity. In Nature there are positive and negative outcome. Some outcomes are as a result of circumstances that are outside of the control of the people involved and others are within their control.
We believe that this simple process of positive and negative outcomes is all that Nature needs to separate out good intent and bad intent.
I have to say here that when it comes to the Law that Nature and humanity will often come into conflict and rules and regulations that are exploited, manipulated and used to cheat does not mean that because it was not against the Law that it is a good thing.
As mankind seeks to cheat at many levels they begin to believe that as something is made legal that it makes it right; it does not. At the end of the day someone who does bad things cannot escape the Taint that they gather as a result of their negative actions. In the same way someone who gathers positive Taint cannot escape the benefits that this will provide.
Have a great day.
I find it interesting that one of the things that people often ignore is the behaviours and nature of humanity.
As someone with the Vartis viewpoint I don't think in terms of good or evil as a way of explaing things. I have found that when I try to do so there are so many inconsistencies that it makes my head spin.
We believe that there is a simplier explanation. In Nature good and evil is a construct that is limited to humanity. In Nature there are positive and negative outcome. Some outcomes are as a result of circumstances that are outside of the control of the people involved and others are within their control.
We believe that this simple process of positive and negative outcomes is all that Nature needs to separate out good intent and bad intent.
I have to say here that when it comes to the Law that Nature and humanity will often come into conflict and rules and regulations that are exploited, manipulated and used to cheat does not mean that because it was not against the Law that it is a good thing.
As mankind seeks to cheat at many levels they begin to believe that as something is made legal that it makes it right; it does not. At the end of the day someone who does bad things cannot escape the Taint that they gather as a result of their negative actions. In the same way someone who gathers positive Taint cannot escape the benefits that this will provide.
Have a great day.
Understanding that if one is looking at this through your lens, I would agree. But (as I mentioned before) this was not God's doing but man's - he opened the proverbial Pandora's Box when he handed the authority that he had to Satan.
Your evidence that childhood leukemia is mans doing?
As I said before, satan is gods toy, not mans. But feel free to absolve your god of what, according to the bible, only god can do
How did you come to know these things? What is your source of knowledge, inspiration, or reference? What verses of whatever scriptures do you use to derive these ideas?
I can see the possibilities if one would not to include the complete revelation as given by Jesus Christ. As Christians, we see Jesus Christ as the complete and fulfilled will of God.
And, again, one's person viewpoint of evil could be seen as good to someone else. I am sure that the killing of Hitler would be classified as "good" to most of us yet, I am pretty sure, there would be some that would classify it as evil.
"That God kills and takes life (and no other truly does this)" - I would disagree with this position..
As Jesus put it: John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
It directly says that not only is there another "father" but a murdering father at that. So to say that no other entity does this would be in error.
Again, inHebrews 2:14"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"
Unless Jesus is fighting against the Father, it is quite plain that it is the devil that kills, steals and destroys.
Two different entities.
Did God kill? Absolutely. As I mentioned in the other thread, where beastiality was present, baby sacrificing prevalent and the desire to kill other people, it would be like the "Hitler" of that time. Not that He wanted to do it, but He had no other choice especially since He knows the future of each people.e
Yes, except that the complete revelation was still unfolding and we, as Christians, interpret it through the revelation of the New Testament. Sin gives legal right for Satan to operate in this earth. As with Job, God protected, sin eliminated the protection but with repentance, God restores the hedge of protection and this all was pre-crucifixion which has better promises.
There are spiritual laws that operate. birds flying, dogs barking, and trees growing are sampling fulfilling spiritual/natural laws.
But it is clear that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. That included healing sickness and disease.
Are there differing viewpoints within Christianity? But of course.
Can I help it if they are wrong? God does not "control" everything like a string on a puppet. Otherwise He would have never said "choose".
Thanks for a great post
Yes, that is your viewpoint as you view it through your religious viewpoint. Is leukemia an aberration of what is supposed to be? If it is, then it wasn't God.
In Christian understanding, the root is Satan and the door of permission was given by man.
I think he got it from Lewis' scripture: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
arthra
Baha'i
In the Baha'i View "Satan" is not a super natural entity at war with God but rather a mere symbol of man's lower nature.
The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
— Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.
The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
— Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.
Yet not a sparrow falls without God's consent.....
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
And since Satan isn't in that story and the serpent was actually telling the truth, that makes the NT the liar.
I would expect more from a cosmic being than being as petty and as powerless as a human judge's sentences reveal.
In Job, Satan is bringing to light the worst in God, as God knew there was no good reason to smite Job and his family and with the barest of pushes, did so willingly and on multiple occasions.
Can the two be equated since we vaporized children who most definitely weren't doing anything wrong?
I mean, I'm all for deleting bad guys from the face of the earth, but nuking cities and vaporizing innocent people isn't that.
I see the literary character of Yahweh (as opposed to any real deity) to be like a certain US politician who thinks he's in control of everything and takes responsibility for nothing, LOL. He constantly messes up but is so convinced of His superiority that it never occurs to Him that He's actually a moron and shouldn't be allowed to dress Himself.
Ancient Gods didn't work this way and I think it's far better to understand that ancient Gods were more limited in power and jurisdiction.
Well, if we're legit honest, Jesus does a few magic shows and then nothing of any substance gets done.
What authority did Adam have? He named some animals. That was his day. "Oh, look, I'm a-callin' that one a penguin. Time for a nap!"
Well, it'd be surely emotionally cathartic and would prevent him from doing anything else, but it can leave power vacuums and while he definitely deserved to get wiped out (and we'll nuke Japanese kids but not German bad guys), our lack of knowledge or caring about consequences tends to create more problems (see: Saddam and just about every other dictator we've set up).
Jesus is full of it here. God doesn't get to disown His kids when they act up. He either created all or He didn't.
If God created everything, everything in the known universe at least are siblings in Creation, right?
I'm as much a child of God as Jesus is or a rock or a kleenex or ...
"Don't say you have Abraham for your father because God can make children of Abraham out of rocks" -- John the Baptist (and he has a point)
John and Paul seem to have issues with monotheism and its consequences.
And ordered by Yahweh in many cases.
Leukemia is a disease, humans don't (or didn't back then) make disease.
So you say god isn't omni everything then
I can see the possibilities if one would not to include the complete revelation as given by Jesus Christ. As Christians, we see Jesus Christ as the complete and fulfilled will of God.
And, again, one's person viewpoint of evil could be seen as good to someone else. I am sure that the killing of Hitler would be classified as "good" to most of us yet, I am pretty sure, there would be some that would classify it as evil.
"That God kills and takes life (and no other truly does this)" - I would disagree with this position..
As Jesus put it: John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
It directly says that not only is there another "father" but a murdering father at that. So to say that no other entity does this would be in error.
Again, inHebrews 2:14"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"
Unless Jesus is fighting against the Father, it is quite plain that it is the devil that kills, steals and destroys.
Two different entities.
Did God kill? Absolutely. As I mentioned in the other thread, where beastiality was present, baby sacrificing prevalent and the desire to kill other people, it would be like the "Hitler" of that time. Not that He wanted to do it, but He had no other choice especially since He knows the future of each people.e
Yes, except that the complete revelation was still unfolding and we, as Christians, interpret it through the revelation of the New Testament. Sin gives legal right for Satan to operate in this earth. As with Job, God protected, sin eliminated the protection but with repentance, God restores the hedge of protection and this all was pre-crucifixion which has better promises.
There are spiritual laws that operate. birds flying, dogs barking, and trees growing are sampling fulfilling spiritual/natural laws.
But it is clear that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. That included healing sickness and disease.
Are there differing viewpoints within Christianity? But of course.
God does not "control" everything like a string on a puppet. Otherwise He would have never said "choose".
Thanks for a great post
Thank you to you as well for writing out your wonderful and enjoyable to read responses as well!
You may enjoy participating in or contributing to this thread of mine as well:
The Incompatibility of Religious Views (like some Christian views with others)
The two most important Christians on this forum as far as I've seen appear to be you and the guy I call Mr. Ross (lovingly) who I invited to that thread also and hope he also contributes.
On this website, there may be "pairs", two chiefs in their religions as representatives.
I think you and that Mr. Ross guy (that is not his username, oh yeah, I just checked, its thomas t) represent Christianity and Christian positions best and with a lot of patience.
I'm paired up with a person named "Seeker of Truth" or something, oh no its SeekerOnThePath. In us both is a sort of restless spirit and vigor and an interest in religions and broad scope and knowledge regarding them.
There are other spiritual teams in my view, the "Western Bahai" seem to be best represented by a gentleman named Tony (an actual gentleman) and a lady (but not Lady-like exactly, she is closer to nature than that in my view, whereas a "Lady" was often someone worried about their appearance in society, whereas she sticks to her guns and is more like a Cowgirl, not a cow though), is called Trailblazer. Tony seems a lot more passive than her, and Thomas seems a lot more fiery inside than you, even though he keeps it cool, he has a lot of fire and I can see it by what gets him moved and how he sticks to it. This sort of assessment of people is a lot of extra enjoyment for me, because I get to sort of "look through" them and see their "true colors".
I also happen to like these people I am mentioning quite a bit (including yourself, as you were mentioned too).
There are some great representatives for Atheism too, but I can't remember their names right now or haven't decided on top two pairs of best representatives for them.
Amanaki is in my view a "True Seeker" which seems sort of rare even, as all of us have basically settled on something pretty strongly, but there are others like him, like maybe KAT-KAT has a somewhat similar spirit, but more importantly possibly there are figures like Unveiled Artist who are worth attention, maybe even chinu who have all been pretty active.
We also have some very educated and well-informed Jewish people on here, but I don't really see them or feel a proselytizing spirit as much from them, even though proselytizing is maybe officially not allowed, its clearly something in us all that we might prefer to share and promote certain views and ideas strongly, but I'm not getting that vibe so far from the Jewish members.
There is a pretty good Jehovah's Witness writer on here, forgot the username, but I was unable to directly engage with them much (which actually I think is fruitful when people take the time to engage with me and respond as they end up producing more than they might have otherwise and bring about some great writing and food for thought and defenses as well).
Though I say a lot of positive things about the Qur'an, I probably don't represent mainstream Islam in its popular or TV form, so there are more likely two others who would represent that better than myself and SeekerOnThePath who are very likely somewhat different from them or they might not tend to agree with our views or ways of thinking or the things we are open to saying and accepting or promoting.
""That God kills and takes life (and no other truly does this)" - I would disagree with this position."
I was referring to this verse though:
Deuteronomy 32:39
Look now; I myself am he! There is no other god but me! I am the one who kills and gives life; I am the one who wounds and heals; no one can be rescued from my powerful hand!
How do you differ regarding these statements above?
God AND the Devil?Within the light of the NT and understanding that there are times when God removes the light of some men for the benefit of men (as I mentioned in the last post with you on this thread).
But clarity within the knowledge and revelation of Jesus Christ and the NT...
Example:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
NT: Romans 5:13 [To be sure] sin was in the world before ever the Law was given, but sin is not charged to men’s account where there is no law [to transgress].
If there is no law, there is no transgression... even today's legal system understands this. When you put a law (speed limit 70) - it isn't you created the sin but rather in that a line is now placed, sin is recognized and you have created the lines that created sin.
If the line is light, then automatically you created darkness as sin because you established a line. When you create peace, then automatically evil is delineated and you have created a line that established what evil is. If you bring prosperity, then you have created aline to recognize calamity.
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Deuteronomy 28:61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed.
in context with
Deut 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
vs. NT revelation to understand the TaNaKh
Mark 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010%3A8&version=KJV']Matthew 10:8 [/URL]
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
1 John 3:8b
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
So, either God's house is divided and will not stand or there was a greater truth that God was trying to reveal.
Deut 28:15 states that there is a spiritual law that is in effect. Obey God and blessings and protection comes :1-14. However, when you don't follow under the umbrella of God's protection, you are exposed to the works of the devil since sin gives him permission to kill still and destroy.
Notices that even to the worst of people, Jesus never put sickness on them. He healed all who were sick. If He came to destroy the works of the devil, and all He did was heal, and told His disciples to do the same, then we have to dig deeper for true meaning.
Thus, as it was said in Isaiah 53 and Matthew 8:17 - Jesus bore the sickness... He didn't divvy it out. 1 Peter 2:24 - by His stripes we are healed.