Yeah, then I try to show them extensive quotes from the scriptures they believe in, and watch them try to wriggle out of it all! They live in some weird fantasy denial of the books they tout and bandy about but don't even seem to read or pay much mind to. Its like its own religion apart from the ideas presented directly in the Bible itself.
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Is Satan Evil?
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
Yeah, then I try to show them extensive quotes from the scriptures they believe in, and watch them try to wriggle out of it all! They live in some weird fantasy denial of the books they tout and bandy about but don't even seem to read or pay much mind to. Its like its own religion apart from the ideas presented directly in the Bible itself.
Gargovic Malkav
Well-Known Member
If Satan was literally cut off from God, it would mean that he is a God too, corrupting the whole idea of monotheism.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Perhaps Lucifer was a freedom fighter who led a revolution against tyranny. Of course, the winning side depicted their opponents as the nasty villains.
Brian2
Veteran Member
According to the Bible Satan is a liar and murderer from the start. So he lied to Eve and wanted to murder Adam and Eve that way and murder humanity in general.
God created us and wants to save us from Satan's murderous plans.
God is the judge of all of us and has the right to kill those whom He has judged.
God has given us life and all things and God can take it all away.
Satan is the deceiver of the whole earth according to the Bible and supresses the truth and is waging war against all of us in reality.
Goddess Kit
Active Member
Those who drink the kool-aid always seem the most confident.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Bava Batra 16a:8
"Reish Lakish says: Satan, the evil inclination, and the Angel of Death are one, that is, they are three aspects of the same essence. He is the Satan who seduces people and then accuses them."
Source: ( Sefaria )
Based on this, Satan is malevolent towards people.
The idea of the rebellion of Satan seems to come later on mainly, and Satan is shown throughout the Old Testament working as an agent of God instead, doing the dirty work of harming and bringing to light the worst in human tendencies and conduct.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
I know. I just wanted to add a twist to the christian take on it.
Yeah, it is a pretty popular twist as well, and ideas almost like that are presented in the Paradise Lost story by Milton and later on by the story of Sanat Kumara told by the Theosophists, and perhaps also by some Sufi writers who took Satan as the "most un-budging in loyalty to God which causes his refusal to submit to Adam".I know. I just wanted to add a twist to the christian take on it.
I worship Satan, so the idea of Satan as the "underdog" doesn't appeal to me, and I prefer instead that Satan is a term that can be used to refer to the "Enemy" in the most abstract sense, the Source of All Evil, which to me is none other than whatever is responsible for everything (who people call God). Then, other than the Great Satan, there are endless amounts of things which can be considered harmful, noxious, vile, including many people, and all those are also Devils and Satans or can be called such. So a figure who is a rebel would count to me as one of the lesser than Maximus Evil figures, since Maximus Evil is the Boss Devil and the one I miserably worship (since I don't believe in any really "Very Good" God or true Benevolence or Omnibenevolence):
ccording to Tacitus:
Of all the Suevians, the Semnones recount themselves to be the most ancient and most noble. The belief of their antiquity is confirmed by religious mysteries. At a stated time of the year, all the several people descended from the same stock, assemble by their deputies in a wood; consecrated by the idolatries of their forefathers, and by superstitious awe in times of old. There by publicly sacrificing a man, they begin the horrible solemnity of their barbarous worship. To this grove another sort of reverence is also paid. No one enters it otherwise than bound with ligatures, thence professing his subordination and meanness, and the power of the Deity there. If he falls down, he is not permitted to rise or be raised, but grovels along upon the ground. And of all their superstition, this is the drift and tendency; that from this place the nation drew their original, that here God, the supreme Governor of the world, resides, and that all things else whatsoever are subject to him and bound to obey him.[1]
Poetic Edda[edit]
The description is often compared with a prose paragraph in the Eddic poem Helgakviða Hundingsbana II where a place called Fjöturlundr (grove of fetters) is mentioned:
Helgi obtained Sigrún, and they had sons. Helgi lived not to be old. Dag, the son of Högni, sacrificed to Odin, for vengeance for his father. Odin lent Dag his spear. Dag met with his relation Helgi in a place called Fiöturlund, and pierced him through with his spear. Helgi fell there, but Dag rode to the mountains and told Sigrún what had taken place.[2]
Due to the resemblance between the two texts, some scholars have identified the deity of the Semnones with an early form of Odin.
God (word) - Wikipedia
"Some variant forms of the name Odin such as the Lombardic Godan may point in the direction that the Lombardic form actually comes from Proto-Germanic *ǥuđánaz. Wōdanaz or Wōđinaz is the reconstructed Proto-Germanic name of a god of Germanic paganism, known as Odin in Norse mythology, Wōden in Old English, Wodan or Wotan in Old High German and Godan in the Lombardic language. Godan was shortened to God over time and was adopted/retained by the Germanic peoples of the British isles as the name of their deity, in lieu of the Latin word Deus used by the Latin speaking Christian church, after conversion to Christianity."
Gott ist gegenwärtig
Last edited by a moderator:
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
Satan isnt evil, he is a suffering being.
What is he suffering over / about?
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
It's just his nature. It's his job to hate the rest of hell for tormenting him, but his pain will end when God ushers in everafter.
The word Iblis:
"may have been derived from the Arabic verbal root BLS ب-ل-س (with the broad meaning of "remain in grief") or بَلَسَ (balasa, "he despaired")"
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
"Bad" as defined in your perspective. Some people see the bombing of Japan (atomic) as bad and others as good. So, perhaps, it is only "bad" or evil as you define it. Would it be bad to stop the killing in the Holocaust by killing those who were doing evil?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Satan or Shaithan in the arabic language means rebellious deviation. It has quite a different understanding.
And some people consider childhood leukaemia bad, if the abrahamic god crested life on earth them he created leukaemia and other cancers, the mosquito, the marmot
Thank you! I saw that post thanks to your linking it here. I think that the Bible says pretty clearly that both calamity, evil, harms, and whatever else considered bad, also come from the same creator of everything including what we consider good (which may also be bad for other things). That God kills and takes life (and no other truly does this), and also gives life and gives it back as well for the resurrection. God does all these things, is responsible for all these things, so that those who say "Evil is the creation of Satan, brought about by Satan, calamity and storms and death and woes are only Satan and not God" are then saying that what I call God is what they call Satan.
The Bible shows many cases in which God is hardening hearts, stirring up trouble and deception in people, making them lie and misleading them, and takes responsibility as the Only Power, the Only God, of which there is no other power or God, no other source or destination. If Satan is to be considered in the Biblical context (particularly in the Old Testament), he is none other than God's servant and agent, like any other evil spirit mentioned as being sent by God upon people to cause them harm, distress, delusion, or whatever else.
That version of God, who is not truly "omnibenevolent" but rather controlling everything that happens and how it happens, from birds flying to dogs barking and trees growing and leaves falling and people fighting and who hits where and injures who how and kills or lives or whatever happens or which disease spreads from who to who or what people eat, as we are dependent every moment on "The words of God" and that is how we live, and for some God makes them hardened like Pharaoh, and for others, God makes them saved and good, or turn towards good, and no one can turn towards good or even evil without God making it so.
That seems to be the idea that was at least present through the Biblical scriptures, which also seemed to be of particular interest to Calvinists, (but seems to also have been mentioned in parts of the New Testament and writings of Paul such as Romans and God's acting upon the people who create images of God or think of God as a man or man-form, making them homosexuals for example), and also seems to have been present in the days of the writing of the Qur'an which seems to hold this view as well of God's total control and crediting for the most part (though even at the time and within the Qur'an there are people who have issues with this idea of total control and God doing everything and not understanding or wanting to believe in ourselves as merely characters in God's narration of our entire existence, life, and history of experience from the inside in every detail).
Very few hold this belief today, as it seems to conflict with their sense of Justice and also with the idea that God is free from Evil, rather than the Creator of Everything, including all that is ever called Evil.
Yes, and whoever doesn't admit to this takes the weaker position which becomes all the more difficult to justify, and then they have to get into this:
Theodicy - Wikipedia
When the solution is simply the truth, which is that there are things which are called evil, things which cause harm, and that whatever is Ultimately responsible for anything and everything at the very top and thus even immediately if one believes in a chain of consequences even, is responsible for such, and is the source and cause of such, by any name.
Which may lead some to this:
Misotheism - Wikipedia.
or otherwise:
Evil demon - Wikipedia
The World as Will and Representation - Wikipedia.
Fatalism - Wikipedia
Occasionalism - Wikipedia
Predestination in Calvinism - Wikipedia
Predestination in Islam - Wikipedia.
Predestination - Wikipedia
Destiny - Wikipedia
Predeterminism - Wikipedia
Theological determinism - Wikipedia
Argument from free will - Wikipedia
Jansenism - Wikipedia
Hard determinism - Wikipedia