Who will be Victorious ?

The contrast between the enormous array of dissenting voices compared to the smattering of those on the side of God's message of salvation is great indeed, but how many are considering that those numbers are in reality inconsequential?

Perhaps the following accounts will confirm this premise:

The time: around 925 BCE; Ammon, Moab and Mount Seir entered into a conspiracy against King Jehoshaphat and the people of Jerusalem. They determined to assault and crush Jerusalem. They not only had a superior army but also vastly outnumbered them. They were more than confident, annihalation of Jerusalem and Juda was certain.

Faithful Jehoshaphat prayed to God, his prayer a pathetic one, since it fitly pictures the utter helplessness of Jerusalem and the complete dependence on their God.
While he was praying the Lord sent him a message by Jahaziel,saying :"Listen, you inhabitants of Jerusalem, and you King Jehosaphat, do not be afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude [against you]; for the battle is not yours, but God's. Stand still and see the salvation of Jehovah.(2Chr 20)

As they say, the rest is history, but what do we learn from it? Can we see that although those on God's side are a minority, God will protect them from lasting harm ?

This leads us to the forthcoming war of God with the nations. Do faithful ones have reason to be confident that ultimatly the number of God's ennemies will in no measure affect the result of the conflict of Harmageddon ?

Neuropteron said:

The contrast between the enormous array of dissenting voices compared to the smattering of those on the side of God's message of salvation is great indeed, but how many are considering that those numbers are in reality inconsequential?

Perhaps the following accounts will confirm this premise:

The time: around 925 BCE; Ammon, Moab and Mount Seir entered into a conspiracy against King Jehoshaphat and the people of Jerusalem. They determined to assault and crush Jerusalem. They not only had a superior army but also vastly outnumbered them. They were more than confident, annihalation of Jerusalem and Juda was certain.

Faithful Jehoshaphat prayed to God, his prayer a pathetic one, since it fitly pictures the utter helplessness of Jerusalem and the complete dependence on their God.
While he was praying the Lord sent him a message by Jahaziel,saying :"Listen, you inhabitants of Jerusalem, and you King Jehosaphat, do not be afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude [against you]; for the battle is not yours, but God's. Stand still and see the salvation of Jehovah.(2Chr 20)

As they say, the rest is history, but what do we learn from it? Can we see that although those on God's side are a minority, God will protect them from lasting harm ?

This leads us to the forthcoming war of God with the nations. Do faithful ones have reason to be confident that ultimatly the number of God's ennemies will in no measure affect the result of the conflict of Harmageddon ?

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God considers the nations as dust on the scales. Prophecy says he laughs at the kings who stand in array against him, the Almighty God Jehovah, and against his anointed one, Jesus Christ:

"The One enthroned in the heavens will laugh;
Jehovah will scoff at them.
At that time he will speak to them in his anger
And terrify them in his burning anger."
-Psalm 2:4, 5.

"Look! The nations are like a drop from a bucket,
And as the film of dust on the scales they are regarded.
Look! He lifts up the islands like fine dust."
Isaiah 40:15.

Neuropteron said:

This leads us to the forthcoming war of God with the nations.

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God's Will, will be done.

The war will be our choices made against that will.

God does not loose if we choose war, we are the only loosers if we do not choose peace, which is God's Will for us to achieve.

Regards Tony

Wishing for a bloodthirsty messiah to make your enemies dust is passive aggression as I see it.

I don't believe God approves of your passive aggressive fantasies.

danieldemol said:

Wishing for a bloodthirsty messiah to make your enemies dust is passive aggression as I see it.

I don't believe God approves of your passive aggressive fantasies.

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The God of the Bible is not bloodthristy. In fact he says:

“‘Do I take any pleasure at all in the death of a wicked person?’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. ‘Do I not prefer that he turn away from his ways and keep living?’"-Ezekiel 18:23.

The fact of the matter is he has been very patient in bringing an end to wickedness for mankind's benefit. Because he is patient with you, not wanting any to be destroyed, but all to attain repentance according to 2 Peter 3:9. A beautiful scripture.

The fact of the matter is we are all nothing in comparison to God. And the idea that a person or a group of people, or a nation, or even a world full of nations will all conspire to try and do away with pure worship of Jehovah is something he scoffs. Think about it. God is the source of the entire universe. And how small is the earth? It is but a spec in a spec in a spec. The earth revolves around the sun, in a solar system that is dwarfed in comparison to our Milky Way galaxy. That in turn is dwarfed by the size of our local cluster of galaxies, that in turn is dwarfed in comparison to the size of the universe. What type of weapons can the nations raise up against God? So the very fact that they will do so makes him laugh. It's like you looking down at a tiny tiny ant, although the comparison is very unfair we are far far less than an ant in comparison, and seeing it hot with anger and swinging it's little legs at you as if it was going to do anything. It's like a man jumping in front of a 500 car train going at 300 miles an hour and holding out its hands as if it is going to stop the train. It's just not going to happen. The mere idea is ridiculous.

Eyes to See said:

The mere idea is ridiculous.

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The mere idea that non JWS are wicked and deserve death is what is ridiculous.

Neuropteron said:

Do faithful ones have reason to be confident that ultimatly the number of God's ennemies will in no measure affect the result of the conflict of Harmageddon ?

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Oh my - Harmageddon (with an 'H' no less). Surely anyone who writes it with an 'H' must be really, really in the know and not your casual, run of the mill, Revelations-informed word-dropper.

In any event, for many of us the book of Revelations has zero authority and gimmicks such as idiosyncratic spelling are not likely to change that fact.

danieldemol said:

The mere idea that non JWS are wicked and deserve death is what is ridiculous.

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One of the reasons of God's word is to teach us what his standards of right and wrong are. A simple example:

"Jehovah examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one;
He hates anyone who loves violence."-Psalm 11:5.

Did you notice in this instance the difference between a righteous man and a wicked one is anyone that has a love of violence is wicked?

This world is not only filled with violence, but it is filled with people who love violence. Would you not agree? In fact the world's entertainment industry is replete with extremely graphic violence which people relish in as entertainment.

Now it may be ridiculous to you, but there is also a wise Proverb that says:

"There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes
But has not been cleansed from its filth."
-Proverbs 30:12.

it has been suggested that the scarlet woman is none other than the 'church' who is barren thus scarlet, unfruitful, covered in menstrual blood, devoid of the good works and deeds, which if born would have negated the scarlet robes.
supporting the thrones of every beast of the nations is a temple that is entwined with the schemes of worldly empires.
[just sharing intel on an open case.]

Eyes to See said:

One of the reasons of God's word is to teach us what his standards of right and wrong are. A simple example:

"Jehovah examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one;
He hates anyone who loves violence."-Psalm 11:5.

Did you notice in this instance the difference between a righteous man and a wicked one is anyone that has a love of violence is wicked?

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This would be somewhat more convincing if the god portrayed in the bible didn't so often commit, or order its people to commit, the most horrendous acts of violence....

ratiocinator said:

This would be somewhat more convincing if the god portrayed in the bible didn't so often commit, or order its people to commit, the most horrendous acts of violence....

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God doesn't like violence. But he can and will end wickedness, and that calls for violence. There is a big difference. I realize it is lost on a generation of people. You can be willing to put a person to death for his badness and still not enjoy it. God has never enjoyed putting the wicked to death. And he never will. But his justice will not tolerate wickedness. He is patient and kind and loving and merciful and puts up with an extreme deal. He has never acted unjustly when doing away with wicked and violent human society in the past, and will continue righteous and loving in the future when doing so.

Really, the only ones that complain about God's justice are evil people that don't want to be held accountable to their God for their actions.

Eyes to See said:

You can be willing to put a person to death for his badness and still not enjoy it.

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So infants and even animals can be bad, can they? 1 Samuel 15:3

ratiocinator said:

So infants and even animals can be bad, can they? 1 Samuel 15:3

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Everything that God does is just and right. He even brought out the point about animals in Ninveh the great city:

"Should I not also feel sorry for Ninʹe·veh the great city, in which there are more than 120,000 men who do not even know right from wrong, as well as their many animals?”-Jonah 4:11.

I wonder if you feel the same way for unborn children as you do infants that are born into wicked and extremely violent households?

In any event Jehovah deems a child that cannot distinguish right or wrong righteous or wicked based on their parents. So if young children are destroyed with their wicked parents it is on their parent's heads.

Instead of nitpicking why you think God is wrong for being a just and good person, and executing judgement on lawless and evil people who bring misery and violence to mankind, you should get to know him better.

ratiocinator said:

So infants and even animals can be bad, can they? 1 Samuel 15:3

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The Canaanites were an extremely wicked and evil people. You should read about some of the history of what those people were doing that God had put to death. You judge without knowing. But if you knew God then even if you didn't know how the people were you would know he would never put to death someone righteous or good.

As for your point about animals and infants, reread my previous post, or perhaps even take the time to read it as it appears you didn't.

Eyes to See said:

In any event Jehovah deems a child that cannot distinguish right or wrong righteous or wicked based on their parents.

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Wow - and you call that "just and right", do you? An astounding example of how religion can undermine people's basic humanity and compassion.

ratiocinator said:

Wow - and you call that "just and right", do you? An astounding example of how religion can undermine people's basic humanity and compassion.

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Really what is just and right to you? To allow wicked and evil to continue? It seems to me, the same people that complain that God allows wickedness and evil, are the same that complain that he is going to bring about the end of wickedness and evil. The only way to do that is to do away with wicked and evil. Is it not you the one who are distorting what is right and wrong?

Eyes to See said:

Really what is just and right to you?

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Not judging infants, who do not know right from wrong, according to their parents, for a start. What would you think of human authorities that did that? You think it would be a good idea to lock infants in prison, or even put them to death, because of the crimes of their parents?

Eyes to See said:

To allow wicked and evil to continue?

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Firstly, if a god exists, it is doing that anyway. Secondly, surely an omniscient, omnipotent, good, just, and loving god can think of a better way to deal with people who have committed crimes than wholesale slaughter, especially as it didn't even work (in putting an end to evil)?

Any group of humans today who carried out the actions of the god of the bible would be rightly considered to be guilty of genocide and crimes against humanity. It is truly astounding and horrifying that religious people try to defend these sorts of actions, and even claim them to be good, just because it's in their favourite religious text.

ratiocinator said:

Not judging infants, who do not know right from wrong, according to their parents, for a start. What would you think of human authorities that did that? You think it would be a good idea to lock infants in prison, or even put them to death, because of the crimes of their parents?



Firstly, if a god exists, it is doing that anyway. Secondly, surely an omniscient, omnipotent, good, just, and loving god can think of a better way to deal with people who have committed crimes than wholesale slaughter, especially as it didn't even work (in putting an end to evil)?

Any group of humans today who carried out the actions of the god of the bible would be rightly considered to be guilty of genocide and crimes against humanity. It is truly astounding and horrifying that religious people try to defend these sorts of actions, and even claim them to be good, just because it's in their favourite religious text.

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God gives everyone freewill. And with that comes the ability to chose to do right or wrong. And God tells us to do right and keep living. But it is your choice:

“See, I do put before you today life and good, and death and bad...and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life."-Deuteronomy 30:15, 19, 20.

Could God force us to worship him and do what is right? Yes. But are you sure that is a better way of doing things? He knows what he is doing. And the very fact that he has allowed evil for so long shows he is not the type of God you imagine him to be. He is patient and is kind and is loving.

He will not tolerate evil for all times. And he is now affording humankind an opportunity to repent and turn to doing good. It is your choice. You can chose to do what is right by loving Jehovah God. It is in your power, just as it is in everyone else's. We all have the choice. Freewill is a show of love from God. And it also does mean that he has confidence that we can do what is right. And where we need help he gives it.

I say these things out of love. And that is God. He is love. He doesn't want to execute wicked people. His will is that everyone everywhere repent:

"This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth."-1 Timothy 2:3-4.

And while, you are correct religion has caused many people to do bad things, and they even depict God as evil and bad, God will not tolerate that for much longer either. Jesus taught us to pray for God's kingdom to come to the earth and his will to be done as it is in heaven. He prayed for God to sanctify his name.

He is not an aloof, uncaring, evil, vindictive, harsh, bloodthristy God as many think or depict him to be. He is a gentle, loving, merciful, patient, tender, and kind God who is humble and generous. The very fact that we are alive is proof of this. He cares for you just as he cares for Daniel, just as he cares for me. And he is extremely forgiving. He is willing to forgive an enormous amount of badness if a person is contrite and repentant over their wrong course.

Eyes to See said:

God gives everyone freewill.

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Really? In that case, why is it that everybody sins (Romans 3:23)? If it were a genuine choice, then why wouldn't anybody take it? If everybody fails a test, it's not a choice it's a design flaw.

The rest of your post is just the usual trite excuses for the obviously evil acts of the god of the OT.

ratiocinator said:

Really? In that case, why is it that everybody sins (Romans 3:23)? If it were a genuine choice, then why wouldn't anybody take it? If everybody fails a test, it's not a choice it's a design flaw.

The rest of your post is just the usual trite excuses for the obviously evil acts of the god of the OT.

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You don't want answers. Perhaps, before it is too late your heart will soften.