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The Trinity

logician

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
Ah, the ego of an atheist. :D

I don't happen to believe in the Trinity myself, but every aspect of my own religious beliefs makes absolute sense to me. The fact that you don't personally understand something in no way means that "nobody understands it."

I was a Christian for a number of years as a youth , and have certainly heard a number of sermons about the trinity. I now think the biblical Jesus was pure myth, along with the stories about the Holy Spirit, but given that I still think the idea of the trinity has minimal biblical support, certainly to the lengths it was taken to later in the Christian church.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
wanderer085 said:
Let's face it, the idea of the trinity was made up, like everything else in Christianity. Nobody understands it, because it really doesn't make sense, any more than Jesus - who is god made in man's image for man's purposes.

Um, would you care to show some evidence for the idea that "everything" in Christianity was "made up"?

Or is that just a belief of yours? ;)
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Booko said:
Um, would you care to show some evidence for the idea that "everything" in Christianity was "made up"?

Or is that just a belief of yours? ;)

Check out http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/, and many other websites that discuss in length the lack of evidence of a historical Jesus, and the dubious authorship of most of the NT.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
thriftypassenger said:
I have been exchanging emails with a Muslim for a while, and the last email I got was about the Trinity in Christianity. He says, that the Trinity makes Christianity Polytheistic.
thriftypassenger said:

Is there anyone who can explain the Trinity to me?
I don't know how to explain to him, that Christians consider themselves Monotheistic.

Well you have to be considerate of Muslims as Islam considers the Trinity to be "intercessors" and yet they have their own "intercessors" (i.e. Father = Allah, Son = Prophet Muhammed [pbuh]) and the Holy Ghost = the word of god, the Qur'an). “Intercessors” are “barriers” between the individual and “god”… in theory, at least. :eek:

Even though many consider Muslim's focus or fixation on Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] to be nothing short of hero/idol worship, Muslims appear oblivious to this because they do not offer prayer directly to Prophet Muhammed [pbuh], but rather only to Allah. Oddly, they bend over backwards to emulate every thought and deed of Prophet Muhammed [pbuh]. Seems like idol/hero worship to me... but what do I know? If it quacks like a ducky, looks like a duck and wiggles like a duck - chances are that you are looking at a duck. :cover:


Godlike said:
I think it helps if you imagine the Trinity as a mystical adjunct of Jesus Christ himself. That is...
Godlike said:
"I am the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Spirit)".

The transcendent aspect is in the comprehension that all three unified essences are in Man: male and female. The Trinity is not mere theology: it is wholly resident in every human being.

I tend to think along similar lines. To me it is The Father (or Entity/Soul), the son (The physical body) and the Holy Spook (the dream body or "subtle dream double".) :cool:

In essence, I have no idea why people have difficulty with the “Trinity” concept. It is as valid a way of looking at God as any I would suppose. :yes:
 

bobuk25

Member
Hello, Im new to this forum, and I've been reading some of your thoughts & questions. I am a Christian and I believe as probably most of you do that all the answers that we really need for now are contained in the Bible.

At Acts chapter 17, verse 11, people are called “noble-minded” because they were “carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so,” things taught by the apostle Paul. They were encouraged to use the Scriptures to confirm the teachings even of an apostle. We should do the same.

Keep in mind that the Scriptures are “inspired of God” and are to be used for “setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) So the Bible is complete in doctrinal matters. If the Trinity doctrine is true, it should be there.

I'd invite you to search the Bible, especially the 27 books of the Christian Greek Scriptures, to see for yourself if Jesus and his disciples taught a Trinity. As you search, ask yourself:

1. Can I find any scripture that mentions “Trinity”?

2. Can I find any scripture that says that God is made up of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and holy spirit, but that the three are only one God?

3. Can I find any scripture that says that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom?

Search as you may, you will not find one scripture that uses the word Trinity, nor will you find any that says that Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom. Not even a single scripture says that the Son is equal to the Father in those ways—and if there were such a scripture, it would establish not a Trinity but at most a “duality.” Nowhere does the Bible equate the holy spirit with the Father.

I would be interested in hearing your opinion on this!

Some quotes from an issue of 'Watchtower' distributed by Jehovahs Witnesses
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
bobuk25 said:
I would be interested in hearing your opinion on this!

From:-http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm#II (Catholic encyclopedia) - please look at the above link, as this is just a short extract

II. PROOF OF DOCTRINE FROM SCRIPTURE


A. New Testament
The evidence from the Gospels culminates in the baptismal commission of Matthew 28:20. It is manifest from the narratives of the Evangelists that Christ only made the great truth known to the Twelve step by step. First He taught them to recognize in Himself the Eternal Son of God. When His ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:18). The force of this passage is decisive. That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive. The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions "and . . . and" is evidence that we have here a Third Person co-ordinate with the Father and the Son, and excludes altogether the supposition that the Apostles understood the Holy Spirit not as a distinct Person, but as God viewed in His action on creatures.
The phrase "in the name" (eis to onoma) affirms alike the Godhead of the Persons and their unity of nature. Among the Jews and in the Apostolic Church the Divine name was representative of God. He who had a right to use it was invested with vast authority: for he wielded the supernatural powers of Him whose name he employed. It is incredible that the phrase "in the name" should be here employed, were not all the Persons mentioned equally Divine. Moreover, the use of the singular, "name," and not the plural, shows that these Three Persons are that One Omnipotent God in whom the Apostles believed. Indeed the unity of God is so fundamental a tenet alike of the Hebrew and of the Christian religion, and is affirmed in such countless passages of the Old and New Testaments, that any explanation inconsistent with this doctrine would be altogether inadmissible.
The supernatural appearance at the baptism of Christ is often cited as an explicit revelation of Trinitarian doctrine, given at the very commencement of the Ministry. This, it seems to us, is a mistake. The Evangelists, it is true, see in it a manifestation of the Three Divine Persons. Yet, apart from Christ's subsequent teaching, the dogmatic meaning of the scene would hardly have been understood. Moreover, the Gospel narratives appear to signify that none but Christ and the Baptist were privileged to see the Mystic Dove, and hear the words attesting the Divine sonship of the Messias.
Besides these passages there are many others in the Gospels which refer to one or other of the Three Persons in particular and clearly express the separate personality and Divinity of each. In regard to the First Person it will not be necessary to give special citations: those which declare that Jesus Christ is God the Son, affirm thereby also the separate personality of the Father. The Divinity of Christ is amply attested not merely by St. John, but by the Synoptists. As this point is treated elsewhere (see JESUS CHRIST), it will be sufficient here to enumerate a few of the more important messages from the Synoptists, in which Christ bears witness to His Divine Nature.
  • He declares that He will come to be the judge of all men (Matthew 25:31). In Jewish theology the judgment of the world was a distinctively Divine, and not a Messianic, prerogative.
  • In the parable of the wicked husbandmen, He describes Himself as the son of the householder, while the Prophets, one and all, are represented as the servants (Matthew 21:33 sqq.).
  • He is the Lord of Angels, who execute His command (Matthew 24:31).
  • He approves the confession of Peter when he recognizes Him, not as Messias -- a step long since taken by all the Apostles -- but explicitly as the Son of God: and He declares the knowledge due to a special revelation from the Father (Matthew 16:16-17).
  • Finally, before Caiphas He not merely declares Himself to be the Messias, but in reply to a second and distinct question affirms His claim to be the Son of God. He is instantly declared by the high priest to be guilty of blasphemy, an offense which could not have been attached to the claim to be simply the Messias (Luke 22:66-71).
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Pt2
St. John's testimony is yet more explicit than that of the Synoptists. He expressly asserts that the very purpose of his Gospel is to establish the Divinity of Jesus Christ (John 20:31). In the prologue he identifies Him with the Word, the only-begotten of the Father, Who from all eternity exists with God, Who is God (John 1:1-18). The immanence of the Son in the Father and of the Father in the Son is declared in Christ's words to St. Philip: "Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?" (14:10), and in other passages no less explicit (14:7; 16:15; 17:21). The oneness of Their power and Their action is affirmed: "Whatever he [the Father] does, the Son also does in like manner" (5:19, cf. 10:38); and to the Son no less than to the Father belongs the Divine attribute of conferring life on whom He will (5:21). In 10:29, Christ expressly teaches His unity of essence with the Father: "That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all . . . I and the Father are one." The words, "That which my Father hath given me," can, having regard to the context, have no other meaning than the Divine Name, possessed in its fullness by the Son as by the Father.
Rationalist critics lay great stress upon the text: "The Father is greater than I" (14:28). They argue that this suffices to establish that the author of the Gospel held subordinationist views, and they expound in this sense certain texts in which the Son declares His dependence on the Father (5:19; 8:28). In point of fact the doctrine of the Incarnation involves that, in regard of His Human Nature, the Son should be less than the Father. No argument against Catholic doctrine can, therefore, be drawn from this text. So too, the passages referring to the dependence of the Son upon the Father do but express what is essential to Trinitarian dogma, namely, that the Father is the supreme source from Whom the Divine Nature and perfections flow to the Son. (On the essential difference between St. John's doctrine as to the Person of Christ and the Logos doctrine of the Alexandrine Philo, to which many Rationalists have attempted to trace it, see L[SIZE=-2]OGOS[/SIZE].)
In regard to the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, the passages which can be cited from the Synoptists as attesting His distinct personality are few. The words of Gabriel (Luke 1:35), having regard to the use of the term, "the Spirit," in the Old Testament, to signify God as operative in His creatures, can hardly be said to contain a definite revelation of the doctrine. For the same reason it is dubious whether Christ's warning to the Pharisees as regards blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31) can be brought forward as proof. But in Luke 12:12, "The Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what you must say" (Matthew 10:20, and Luke 24:49), His personality is clearly implied. These passages, taken in connection with Matthew 28:19, postulate the existence of such teaching as we find in the discourses in the Cenacle reported by St. John (14, 15, 16). We have in these chapters the necessary preparation for the baptismal commission. In them the Apostles are instructed not only as the personality of the Spirit, but as to His office towards the Church. His work is to teach whatsoever He shall hear (16:13) to bring back their minds the teaching of Christ (14:26), to convince the world of sin (16:8). It is evident that, were the Spirit not a Person, Christ could not have spoken of His presence with the Apostles as comparable to His own presence with them (14:16). Again, were He not a Divine Person it could not have been expedient for the Apostles that Christ should leave them, and the Paraclete take His place (16:7). Moreover, notwithstanding the neuter form of the word (pneuma), the pronoun used in His regard is the masculine ekeinos. The distinction of the Holy Spirit from the Father and from the Son is involved in the express statements that He proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son (15:26; cf. 14:16, 14:26). Nevertheless, He is one with Them: His presence with the Disciples is at the same time the presence of the Son (14:17-18), while the presence of the Son is the presence of the Father (14:23).
In the remaining New Testament writings numerous passages attest how clear and definite was the belief of the Apostolic Church in the three Divine Persons. In certain texts the coordination of Father, Son, and Spirit leaves no possible doubt as to the meaning of the writer. Thus in II Corinthians 13:13, St. Paul writes: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the charity of God, and the communication of the Holy Ghost be with you all." Here the construction shows that the Apostle is speaking of three distinct Persons. Moreover, since the names God and Holy Ghost are alike Divine names, it follows that Jesus Christ is also regarded as a Divine Person. So also, in I Corinthians 12:4-11: "There are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit; and there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord: and there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all [of them] in all [persons]." (Cf. also Ephesians 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2-3)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Pt3
But apart from passages such as these, where there is express mention of the Three Persons, the teaching of the New Testament regarding Christ and the Holy Spirit is free from all ambiguity. In regard to Christ, the Apostles employ modes of speech which, to men brought up in the Hebrew faith, necessarily signified belief in His Divinity. Such, for instance, is the use of the Doxology in reference to Him. The Doxology, "To Him be glory for ever and ever" (cf. 1 Chronicles 16:38; 29:11; Psalm 103:31; 28:2), is an expression of praise offered to God alone. In the New Testament we find it addressed not alone to God the Father, but to Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 4:18; 2 Peter 3:18; Revelation 1:6; Hebrews 13:20-21), and to God the Father and Christ in conjunction (Revelations 5:13, 7:10). Not less convincing is the use of the title Lord (Kyrios). This term represents the Hebrew Adonai, just as God (Theos) represents Elohim. The two are equally Divine names (cf. 1 Corinthians 8:4). In the Apostolic writings Theos may almost be said to be treated as a proper name of God the Father, and Kyrios of the Son (see, for example, 1 Corinthians 12:5-6); in only a few passages do we find Kyrios used of the Father (1 Corinthians 3:5; 7:17) or Theos of Christ. The Apostles from time to time apply to Christ passages of the Old Testament in which Kyrios is used, for example, I Corinthians 10:9 (Numbers 21:7), Hebrews 1:10-12 (Psalm 101:26-28); and they use such expressions as "the fear of the Lord" (Acts 9:31; 2 Corinthians 5:11; Ephesians 5:21), "call upon the name of the Lord," indifferently of God the Father and of Christ (Acts 2:21; 9:14; Romans 10:13). The profession that "Jesus is the Lord" (Kyrion Iesoun, Romans 10:9; Kyrios Iesous, 1 Corinthians 12:3) is the acknowledgment of Jesus as Jahweh. The texts in which St. Paul affirms that in Christ dwells the plenitude of the Godhead (Colossians 2:9), that before His Incarnation He possessed the essential nature of God (Philemon 2:6), that He "is over all things, God blessed for ever" (Romans 9:5) tell us nothing that is not implied in many other passages of his Epistles.
The doctrine as to the Holy Spirit is equally clear. That His distinct personality was fully recognized is shown by many passages. Thus He reveals His commands to the Church's ministers: "As they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Ghost said to them: Separate me Saul and Barnabas . . ." (Acts 13:2). He directs the missionary journey of the Apostles: "They attempted to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus suffered them not" (Acts 16:7; cf. Acts 5:3; 15:28; Romans 15:30). Divine attributes are affirmed of Him.
To sum up: the various elements of the Trinitarian doctrine are all expressly taught in the New Testament. The Divinity of the Three Persons is asserted or implied in passages too numerous to count. The unity of essence is not merely postulated by the strict monotheism of men nurtured in the religion of Israel, to whom "subordinate deities" would have been unthinkable; but it is, as we have seen, involved in the baptismal commission of Matthew 28:19, and, in regard to the Father and the Son, expressly asserted in John 10:38. That the Persons are co-eternal and coequal is a mere corollary from this. In regard to the Divine processions, the doctrine of the first procession is contained in the very terms Father and Son: the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and Son is taught in the discourse of the Lord reported by St. John (14-17) (see H[SIZE=-2]OLY[/SIZE] G[SIZE=-2]HOST[/SIZE]).
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
wanderer085 said:
Check out http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/, and many other websites that discuss in length the lack of evidence of a historical Jesus, and the dubious authorship of most of the NT.
You didn't just say "a historical Jesus" -- you said "everything in Christianity."

I find that a rather broad claim, to be sure, and unsubstantiated as well, which is why I asked you to support your claim.

As for the lack of a historical Jesus....so what? There's a lack of evidence for my ancestors from a mere 150 years ago, other than a family remembrance about the existence of such people. We might have just made it all up. :rolleyes: So if that's an argument for Jesus (the man) never having existed, it's somewhere between specious and laughable.

We can move on to aspects of textual criticism and manuscript history later, if you like.

By the way, I'm not a Christian. And even when I was an atheist, I would've nailed you on this, so please don't bother claiming I'm doing anything because of some need I feel to put forth Christian apologetics.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Victor said:
The Trinity tends to do that eh? :)

James always seems to do a better job then me at explaining such things. I'll resurrect one of his old posts.

God is One in His Divine Essence, His substance if you like, but He is made up of three Hypostases. Hypostasis is usually translated into English as Person, but that's a fairly poor translation, it's more like personal essence, that which makes an individual a unique person. There really isn't a good analogy that can be used because this is utterly other than all beings that we have experience of in real life. The best way I can describe it is this: a human has one essence (that which makes him human) and one hypostasis (that which makes him uniquely him). God has one Essence (that which makes Him Divine) but three Hypostases. He is, then, One God (one individual) in three Hypostases and is always, simultaneously, One according to His essence but Three in His Hypostases. I'm sure that my description fails at many levels, but we were asked to explain in our own words so I can't call on the words of the Fathers. It is impossible to really grasp the Trinity with our rational mind (hence us calling it a Mystery) so I'd be unsurprised if people don't follow my attempt to explain. You can pretty much guarantee that if someone tells you the Trinity is 'simple' they don't have a clear idea of what it means themselves.

Thanks James! :)

If you have three of those you have three gods.

This is the traditional cop-out that it is a mystery. The only mystery is how anyone can keep on spouting nonsense and claim it is true because it doesn't have to make sense.

My experience with the word of God is that He makes a simple explanation for the simple and a complex explanation for the sophisticated. There is something to be said for simple mindedness: it is not likely the person will get lost in the clutter.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
bobuk25 said:
Hello, Im new to this forum, and I've been reading some of your thoughts & questions. I am a Christian and I believe as probably most of you do that all the answers that we really need for now are contained in the Bible.
Actually, it's possible that the majority of users here don't believe that all the answers we really need for now are contained in the Bible. It's not like I've actually done a count or anything -- just an impression. But there are plenty of great Christians users here, and I'm pleased you've come by to add your voice to theirs.

My very brief thoughts on the subject of the Trinity are basically this: There are paradoxical statements in the Gospel, where sometimes Jesus speaks as if He were a man, and other times He speaks as if He were God. In early Christianity, there was quite a cultural divide between the Christians from Jewish and Hellenistic backgrounds, and the question "Who was Jesus?" was only one of many difficulties that threatened to divide the Church. Among other reasons, it was believed to be critical, as proper belief was seen as one key to salvation. In this context, it was vital the Church come to some answer in order to keep the nascent Church together.

After much study, prayer and consultation, the Church settled on the Trinity as their best understanding of the nature of Christ and of God. Was it the best interpretation? Possibly not -- but even if they were "wrong," I believe the more important principle was to keep the Church from being divided against itself.

Quite frankly, I believe all descriptions of God do, and always will, fall short, so I'm not inclined to single out the Church for having made their best approximation. It's what we all do.

For myself, I don't believe the Trinity is the best way to deal with the paradoxical nature of Christ, but then, I'm not a Christian either. ;)
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Muffled said:
This is the traditional cop-out that it is a mystery. The only mystery is how anyone can keep on spouting nonsense and claim it is true because it doesn't have to make sense.
Sometimes it is a cop out to just call something a mystery.

Other times, it's merely an acknowledgement of human limitations.

In the case of the nature of God, I don't see any claim of "mystery" to be a cop out -- because (I believe) we are quite finite compared to the Infinite. All notions of God are, in large part, "wrong." We do the best we can. :shrug:

My experience with the word of God is that He makes a simple explanation for the simple and a complex explanation for the sophisticated. There is something to be said for simple mindedness: it is not likely the person will get lost in the clutter.
This has been my experience as well. And it's true, one of the difficulties is that, try as I may, I never could understand the concept of the Trinity, even when I was being raised a Christian.

I was a studious sort, and even in working class circles where I was, in my denomination study was strongly encouraged. It still didn't make sense to me, despite the study I undertook. For those who just struggle to even *read* the Bible, how the heck can they be expected to understand it? :confused:

If indeed a proper belief in the "right" God-concept is critical to our salvation, and the Trinity is what we have to believe, personally I think it wasn't very nice of God to leave so much of humanity in the soteriological dust.

For my fellow (Trinitarian) Christians here, if you understand the Trinity well enough to believe it, my hat is truly off to you! <darn...no hat smiley!> And I would not quibble with anyone because they adhered to such a belief, as I think there were good reasons for the genesis of the doctrine (as opposed to the opinions one sometimes finds, that it was all something cooked up out of some evil motivation :cover:).
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
YmirGF said:
Well you have to be considerate of Muslims as Islam considers the Trinity to be "intercessors"

This appears to be speculation on their part. There is no verse in the Qu'ran that I know of that says anything to that affect.

To answer the original question, there is nothing one can say from the Bible that will have any affect on a Muslim because they claim that the Bible has been changed and is unreliable. Of course they can't substantiate that myth but that doesn't keep them from strongly believing in it.

These are the problem verses:
Su 4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was no more than a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" :desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
Su 5:76 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Since the Bible never uses the word "Trinity" I believe these verses refer directly to the Doctrine of the Trinity which would already have been in existence by the time the Qu'ran was written. It is not neccessarily a derogation of the trinitarian concepts of the Bible, only a call to depart from a three god doctrine.

I think it is a good idea to talk about the meaning behind the three members of the trinity particularly noting the work of the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) which makes Christianity unique and the relationship with the Gospel of the Kingdom. The Qu'ran reports that Jesus was given the Gospel but it doesn't say what that Gospel is. Therefore we do them a favor by filling in the gap and at the same time fulfill the commandment of Jesus to preach the Gospel. It also doesn't hurt to wrap the Gospel up in end time prophecy as well since Muslims have a high regard for the end time.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Muffled said:
If you have three of those you have three gods.

This is the traditional cop-out that it is a mystery. The only mystery is how anyone can keep on spouting nonsense and claim it is true because it doesn't have to make sense.

My experience with the word of God is that He makes a simple explanation for the simple and a complex explanation for the sophisticated. There is something to be said for simple mindedness: it is not likely the person will get lost in the clutter.

Muffled, are you Married ? Do you have children ? - I fit into both of those caregories.

Sometimes, when I am at home, I wear my "Husband's hat"(when I am with my wife), sometimes, I have to put on my "father's hat"(for the children); sometimes, I just have the 'me' hat.....................

Can't you see a correlation between that example, and that of the Trinity?
 

rocka21

Brother Rock
you are a spirit.
you have a soul.
you live in a body.

they are the different things, but they are all you. Just different parts of you.
father,son, holy ghost....... different , but one.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The problem is that the Trinity is more than just "parts" of the same person. It's more than just "God putting on different hats."

The Trinity claims that there are three Persons, all of one Being. It's a subtle distinction, but one that is extremely important...also one that most of the Trinity "nay-sayers" seem to gloss over or miss completely.

It reflects the mystery of what we shall become when we are gathered into God's kingdom. We shall all be separate persons, but of one Being with God.
 

bobuk25

Member
Thankyou for your welcome, issues such as the trinity doctrine and other beliefs are offcourse very important, the Bible clearky states at John 17:3 'This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.' So accurate knowledge is very important. Have a look at the following web site, you may find it interesting food for thought, on what exactly the Trinity is and whether it is Bible based or not, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on it. Its watchtower.org, if you go there and click on the publications link and then scroll down to brochures you'll find a brochure called ''Should you believe in the Trinity' you can read it online. Sorry I would give you the link but I'm not allowed to post links yet!
It's very interesting and there are many other subjects you can learn about on the watchtower web site.

Look forward to hearing from you.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
sojourner said:
The problem is that the Trinity is more than just "parts" of the same person. It's more than just "God putting on different hats."

The Trinity claims that there are three Persons, all of one Being. It's a subtle distinction, but one that is extremely important...also one that most of the Trinity "nay-sayers" seem to gloss over or miss completely.

It reflects the mystery of what we shall become when we are gathered into God's kingdom. We shall all be separate persons, but of one Being with God.

I realize that, but I was trying to give a 'simple' parallel that can be understood...........

It took me ages to understand - and I think I do - the trinity. It isn't an easy concept.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
bobuk25 said:
Thankyou for your welcome, issues such as the trinity doctrine and other beliefs are offcourse very important, the Bible clearky states at John 17:3 'This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.' So accurate knowledge is very important. Have a look at the following web site, you may find it interesting food for thought, on what exactly the Trinity is and whether it is Bible based or not, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on it. Its watchtower.org, if you go there and click on the publications link and then scroll down to brochures you'll find a brochure called ''Should you believe in the Trinity' you can read it online. Sorry I would give you the link but I'm not allowed to post links yet!
It's very interesting and there are many other subjects you can learn about on the watchtower web site.

Look forward to hearing from you.
If it's Watchtower, it will have a JW spin that skews differently from what is orthodox Christian belief. They will argue that orthodox Christian belief is not Bible-based, but based upon "man's rules." Orthodoxy argues differently.

Incidentally, Trinitarians do find a legitimate Biblical argument for the Trinity.
 
New Testament does bring God (Father), the Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit together in such a way as to strongly imply the Trinitarian nature of God.
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and ofthe Son and ofthe Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Corinthians 13:14].
To God&#8217;s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].


1 Corinthians 2:2-5; 6:11; 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18-22; 3:14-19; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:6-8; 1Thessalonians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Titus 3:4-6. The reader is encouraged to read each of these passages and note how God (Father), Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit are brought together as instruments of our salvation


and more significant

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 JOHN 5:7)

Trinity is simply a title

TRINITY = three: the cardinal number that is the sum of one and one and one

you dont have to find the word trinity in the bible to show that there are 3 entities in one god, just the obvious scripture readings

1 Cor: 12

[SIZE=-1]12:1[/SIZE] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
[SIZE=-1]12:2[/SIZE] Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. [SIZE=-1]12:3[/SIZE] Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. [SIZE=-1]12:4[/SIZE] Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. [SIZE=-1]12:5[/SIZE] And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. [SIZE=-1]12:6[/SIZE] And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. [SIZE=-1]12:7[/SIZE] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. [SIZE=-1]12:8[/SIZE] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; [SIZE=-1]12:9[/SIZE] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; [SIZE=-1]12:10[/SIZE] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: [SIZE=-1]12:11[/SIZE] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. [SIZE=-1]12:12[/SIZE] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. [SIZE=-1]12:13[/SIZE] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. [SIZE=-1]12:14[/SIZE] For the body is not one member, but many. [SIZE=-1]12:15[/SIZE] If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? [SIZE=-1]12:16[/SIZE] And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? [SIZE=-1]12:17[/SIZE] If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? [SIZE=-1]12:18[/SIZE] But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. [SIZE=-1]12:19[/SIZE] And if they were all one member, where were the body? [SIZE=-1]12:20[/SIZE] But now are they many members, yet but one body. [SIZE=-1]12:21[/SIZE] And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. [SIZE=-1]12:22[/SIZE] Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: [SIZE=-1]12:23[/SIZE] And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. [SIZE=-1]12:24[/SIZE] For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: [SIZE=-1]12:25[/SIZE] That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. [SIZE=-1]12:26[/SIZE] And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. [SIZE=-1]12:27[/SIZE] Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. [SIZE=-1]12:28[/SIZE] And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [SIZE=-1]12:29[/SIZE] Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? [SIZE=-1]12:30[/SIZE] Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? [SIZE=-1]12:31[/SIZE] But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way
 
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