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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Same thing. When you make a claim, you imply belief in said claim. When you express a belief, you do so by stating the claim that is being believed.

Can't have one without the other.
I can have one without the other. I can have a belief and NOT make a claim about it.

I can say “I believe it” without claiming it is true, and after all, logically speaking my believing it does not make it true.
To be exact, it's people claiming to speak for a god who say that. And you believe those (fallible) humans.
No, I believe Baha'u'llah, who was more than an ordinary human, and I believe He was infallible.
So much for you claim that you have evidence. Now I also know why you refuse to share that "evidence".
I have never refused to share that evidence, I have shared it many times; but all atheists say "that's not evidence" so I see no point in sharing it again.
Yeah, like to that woman who drowned her 3 kids because god revealed that as his will to her.
People can and do believe all sorts of things that are not true, but that does not mean that what I believe is not true; it could be true or false.
Then why did you ask for an alternative, if you believed it is impossible to provide one?
Also clearly it wasn't impossible, because I came up with one. :rolleyes:
I asked because you were complaining about what God actually does so I wanted to see if you could come up with something better.
Well, assuming you are correct about your god claims that don't match the facts of reality, I think it's quite obvious that I would do a MUCH better job then him in making my presence and actual will known to all humans in such a way that nobody in his right mind could ever deny it.
Even if you could that is a moot point because there is no reason to believe that God is trying to make His presence and Will known to everyone.

If I had the time, I could explain how your plan would not work and how Baha'u'llah's Plan will work.
The "Plan", capital P. Yes, yes, The Great Mysterious Plan.
:rolleyes:
God's Plan is no mystery. Baha'u'llah laid it all out with His Own Pen, and it is available online in the Baha'i Reference Library for everyone to read or download for free.

Wouldn't you like to know, it would change your life, but maybe it is best to let sleeping dogs lie, because I am not sure you would like the life of a Baha'i, as it is not an easy life. :(
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
"God has no tracks, because has never left a trace."

So where do people get all their information on this god?

It seems this traceless god is a figment of Men's imaginations.
Thanks for catching my error. I sometimes bite off more than I can chew and then I make mistakes.

Correction:
God left tracks whenever He sent a Messenger.
People get all their information about God from the Messenger.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Just another claim.
I just read about a dude who claims to be the reincarnation of Jesus in Russia. He has plenty of followers. All of them would say exactly what you just said, only they would say it about him and call yours an imposter.

And both your arguments have the same merrit: none.
No, they do not have the same merit.
How could you know that unless you know about Baha'u'llah and the merit of His claims?
Evidence would make it so. Or at least, it would make it likely. But you don't have such evidence.
No, evidence would not make it so. Evidence is just what people want in order to believe it is so. It could be so even if there was no evidence but if it is so then there would be evidence somewhere even if you could not find it.

For example, if a man murdered his wife, he murdered her, even if the evidence cannot be found and he cannot be found guilty. There would be evidence of that crime somewhere, but it might never be found. That is what happens to atheists... There is evidence for God but they never find it.

I do have evidence but you will say "that's not evidence" so why would I waste time posting it?
I say that he wasn't, just like that Jesus incarnation fellow in Russia, is infinitly more likely.
You are free to believe what you want to, but what is your evidence?
I would, but it's not like I can phone him up or something.
I'ld also go and search for the pots of gold that the leprechauns have stashed away at the base of the rainbow, but you know.... it's kind of hard.
No, it is impossible.
Neither are leprechauns.
Something you like to hide behind, as if it gives you a free pass to not care about evidence and being rationally justified in your claims.
Another atheist ploy that is illogical. Just because leprechauns would not be answerable to humans if they existed, that does not mean that God would not be answerable to humans if God existed.

Who leprechauns would be answerable to has nothing to do with who God would be answerable to.
That is the fallacy of false equivalence since leprechauns are not equivalent to God.
Off course it is convenient for you. It's yet another excuse for you to use to avoid meeting your burden of proof.
I have no burden to meet since I made no claim. Baha'u'llah made the claim and He met His burden of proof.
WOOSH, that's the sound of the point flying over your head.
No, it didn't, because God can be reasonable without being logical. God is not subject to logic because God transcends logic.
The evidence that you conveniently refuse to share?
No, the evidence I have shared with atheists umpteen million times only to hear them say "that's not evidence." Live and learn. :rolleyes:
Capital T. lol.
I love theists sometimes. It's like the lesser evidence they have, the more certain they are.
Some theists, but not all theists. It is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization to generalize about theists.
Link to one of those umpteen million posts where you share this evidence?
That would take a while to find, and it is faster just to re-post it because I have it all saved in a Word document.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote an be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me he was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that he could see into the future, so he had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
Are you? I still haven't seen any evidence.
You just saw it because it is posted above.
Now you can say "that's not evidence" just like all the other atheists. :D
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And yet for some reason, christianity alone (for example) exploded into some 30.000 different denominations.
And yet for some reason, every distinct (sub) culture has its own unique mutually exclusive religion, or a variation of a religion coming from a culture with whom they had contact.

If you were correct I would expect to see AT LEAST one example of a religion that pops up in two distinct independent culture.

But that NEVER happens. Worse even: the more distinct the cultures (ie: the less contact between them), the more different the religions are.

Exactly as I would expect if all religions are invented by humans.
The exact opposite of what I would expect of some of them came from a single common source - let alone all of them.
I could easily explain how that happens and why that happens even though all true religions come from God, but since I see below that you can no longer take this seriously, I won't bother.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I can no longer take this seriously.
Seems like you've gone so out of your way with your "arguments" that you even completely lost track of what was being discussed.
What it seems to me is that you had a different idea of what was being discussed.
In other words, you were going in one direction and I was going the other way, like on a two way street.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Plan is really not a Plan because God does not have to Plan anything since God already knows everything that is ever going to happen before it happens in the material world, since God is All-Knowing...
So it is really God's purpose, not God's Plan.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it..........” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose
Yet, Baha'is have had all kinds of plans. Are the Baha'is on schedule?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
There is enough evidence to sink a ship, you just do not like the evidence.
I know several Christians that believe there is evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. But you don't except it... And for good reason, because it is the same kind of "evidence" you have for your God and your prophet.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
God could do lots of things since God is omnipotent, but God is not going to do them because God us omnipotent, and and that means God only does what God chooses to do...

As for your suggestions, no human can KNOW MORE than God since God is omniscient, so it is highly illogical to suggest to God what he should do.
Again, God did do a lot of things. He walked in the garden with Adam. He wrote Ten Commandment on stone and wrote on a wall. He sent fire from the sky to destroy a city and to burn up the offering of Elijah. He parted the seas. He knocked down the walls Jericho. He stopped the Sun in the sky. And he raised up Jesus from the dead. But do we believe all of that? No, we don't, because there is no proof. And the more sensible explanation is that people made those things up. But all those things are from religions that Baha'is say are true and from God, yet, those religions are filled with make believe stories that Baha'i don't even believe really happened. So why trust what Baha'is are saying in their stories of an unknowable and invisible God that sends special messengers, and their guy is one of those messengers.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And what Baha'i teachings are you basing this on?
The Baha'i teachings related to the New World Order... For example:

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

Do you see anything in there about God creating the new race of men? Note that the first paragraph is all about what God wants people to do....

Then in the second paragraph it says we should beseech God to graciously assist all men, but God is not going to create the new race of men. People have to become a new race of men themselves, with God's assistance.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Good luck with that. Been there, done that, so I already have the answers all lined up.
Answers? Yeah, that's the problem. Your "answers" are very much like your "evidence". It don't prove nothing and they don't answer nothing to anyone but other Baha'is.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Baha'i teachings related to the New World Order... For example:

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

Do you see anything in there about God creating the new race of men? Note that the first paragraph is all about what God wants people to do....

Then in the second paragraph it says we should beseech God to graciously assist all men, but God is not going to create the new race of men. People have to become a new race of men themselves, with God's assistance.
Sounds like your God has something to do with it.
"excellent favors have been poured out" "His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things" "abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness." "God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil"
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I know several Christians that believe there is evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. But you don't except it... And for good reason, because it is the same kind of "evidence" you have for your God and your prophet.
No, it is completely different than what we have for Baha'u'llah...

All Christians have is stories written by unnamed authors in an ancient book which can in no way ever be verified...
By stark contrast Bahais have the Life of Baha'u'llah and what He did on His Mission which is modern-day history that can be researched. We also have the original Writings of Baha'u'llah

The Christians have nothing compare to what we have, except a lot of history behind them and a lot of believers.

In 2000 years I believe a lot more than 29% of the world population will be Baha'is, but of course I cannot prove that.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So why trust what Baha'is are saying in their stories of an unknowable and invisible God that sends special messengers, and their guy is one of those messengers.
Because of the evidence that demonstrates that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, which really has nothing to do with what older religions believe or teach.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sounds like your God has something to do with it.
"excellent favors have been poured out" "His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things" "abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness." "God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil"
God has something to do with it because God sent Baha'u'llah to usher in the new age, but God isn't going to do the legwork.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

The verse above is what CG was referring to but it does not say that when Jesus comes there will be no more wars.
Besides that, Jesus is not coming back to earth EVER... He clearly said He was not going to return right before He left.
Apparently Christians who are waiting for the SAME Jesus to return have a reading comprehension problem.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Matt 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come...

23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.​
Was all this about 1844? Did all this happen in 1844? Who were the false messiahs in 1844?
And then your special verses that you like to quote. Why do you take those out of context? Do you even know the context? Why do you take other verses as symbolic but these as literal? You have said you don't read or study the NT, so how did you find these four verses? Do you just look for verses, and take them out of context to "prove" your point? But then again, just like with Matthew, who is this John? Why do we trust that what he said really is true? Did he follow Jesus around and take notes? How long after Jesus died and raise from the dead did this John write this stuff? But, if we are going to take John at his word, he said he saw the risen Jesus alive. And if it is the same John that wrote Revelation, he was expecting Jesus to come back.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Again, I know it is just Pilgrim Note's but Shoghi said that the lessor peace would happen by the year 2000. But really, you know about a schedule? And the Baha'is are right on that schedule?
Do you know about the 5 years plans and the 10 year plans? They are on schedule with those plans last I heard, but I would have to dig through a bunch of e-mails in order to verify that, as I am going on memory.
 
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