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Is this logical?

ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
Easy peasy.... God uses allegories to communicate spiritual truths. :D
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I can understand why embarrassment at the above comment would cause you to end it with a big green grinny.

Trailblazer said:
No, I don't need to do that since my beliefs make complete sense. Otherwise, I would toss them in the trash can.
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I don't understand why the above embarrassing comment does not also end with a big green grinny.
 
ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
Yep, as a Baha'i, that is what I believe. He was the return of Christ, the Messiah of the Jews, and the Promised One of all the religions. He was also a Messenger and a Servant of God.
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Trailblazer said:
Yes, the Messiah appeared when Baha'u'llah appeared, Imo.
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In your opinion?!? That's where you are in your faith? Basing your beliefs on your opinions that are not substantiated in or by your own scripture.

Baha'i Faith and Christianity - Baha'is of the United States
The Baha’i writings further explain:

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.​


Where do the Bahai writings state that Baluluah has the "Sonship and Divinity" that the Bahai writings state that Jesus has?
 
ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
No, just because I never mentioned it does not mean it is not part of the story. As a Baha'i, I believe that Baha'u'llah was the Lord of Hosts because that is who He claimed to be. If His other claims are true, then this claim has to also be true, logically speaking.
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No, it is not logical. I can claim to be a male and an atheist. Those claims are true. I can claim to be a billionaire. That claim is not true.

Donald Trump claims to have been in the real estate business and a TV show host. Those claims are true. Donald Trump claims to know more about ISIS than the generals. That claim is not true.

Your concepts of logic, as evidenced by the above post and by your OP, are demonstrably nonsensical.
 
ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
I am not going to take that risk, especially since it won't make any difference to you. If you really want to know how all the prophecies were fulfilled, you can read Thief in the Night. It is online to read for free. If you do not read it, I will take that to mean this is just a game for you, and you do not want to know the truth. the ball is in your court.
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I have read Bahai writings by Shogi Effendi. I have read Bahai writings by Baluluah. That provided all the evidence I needed to know that Bahai is even more nonsensical than Judaism or Christianity. I have given you, and other Bahais, the opportunity to post actual fulfilled prophecies. So far you and yours have failed to do so. If you can't support your religion and your beliefs don't ask me to do so.
 
ecco

ecco

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
As it reads it is incorrect, I will give you that, so I will rephrase it.

An atheist can know how God would communicate or to how many people even though an atheist does not believe in God, because an atheist can read scripture just as well as any believer. :D
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Uh huh. Now you are saying that all of scripture is God's communicating with the masses. You make that assertion after stating that everything in the NT is suspect because no one knows who wrote it. You really waffle, don't you? Maybe you just don't remember what you have written. Maybe you should go back and look.
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
I understood what you said, I simply disagree.

I believe that God sends Messengers who speak for God. I do not believe anyone can "find God" but they can find out something about God through what the Messengers reveal about God.

I think at this point it is best that we agree to disagree.
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If you really understood, you would never needed to ask the 100 dollar questions.

If Beliefs are what you seek, I can not help you. Clearly, you are not ready. That's OK!
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
ecco said:
In your opinion?!? That's where you are in your faith? Basing your beliefs on your opinions that are not substantiated in or by your own scripture.
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No it is not just my opinion, it is something that I know is true, but I have to put that there because otherwise I could get dinged for proselytizing, and then you'd never see me again.
ecco said:
Baha'i Faith and Christianity - Baha'is of the United States
The Baha’i writings further explain:

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.​
Where do the Bahai writings state that Baluluah has the "Sonship and Divinity" that the Bahai writings state that Jesus has?
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Baha'u'llah does not have the Sonship that Jesus had. That was a unique distinction that God conferred upon Jesus. All Manifestations of God have a divine station, so they all have Divinity, which means they have a spiritual station which is born of the substance of God Himself. Here is one place in the Writings where that is addressed:

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself.” Gleanings, p. 66
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
ecco said:
No, it is not logical. I can claim to be a male and an atheist. Those claims are true. I can claim to be a billionaire. That claim is not true.

Donald Trump claims to have been in the real estate business and a TV show host. Those claims are true. Donald Trump claims to know more about ISIS than the generals. That claim is not true.

Your concepts of logic, as evidenced by the above post and by your OP, are demonstrably nonsensical.
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No, it is logical, because either (a) Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, a Manifestation of God, or He was (b) a false prophet. It has to be either (a) or (b). If He was who He claimed to be then everything He claimed about Himself is the truth because Manifestations of God are infallible.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Trailblazer said:
Is this logical? Why or why not?

God not communicating directly to everyone is an observation, something known. However, it does not follow that, since it is observable that God does not communicate directly to everyone, that this means that if God existed God would not communicate directly to everyone.

(Note: I did not write this.)
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think....Prime Directive
as per Star Trek fame
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
ecco said:
I have read Bahai writings by Shogi Effendi. I have read Bahai writings by Baluluah. That provided all the evidence I needed to know that Bahai is even more nonsensical than Judaism or Christianity. I have given you, and other Bahais, the opportunity to post actual fulfilled prophecies. So far you and yours have failed to do so. If you can't support your religion and your beliefs don't ask me to do so.
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Would it really make any difference if I posted fulfilled prophecies? I doubt it. You would find a reason to say they were not fulfilled. If you want to read about all the fulfilled prophecies and HOW they were fulfilled, you have to read
Thief in the Night by William Sears.

I cannot post all of those fulfilled prophecies on this forum. There are too many.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
ecco said:
Uh huh. Now you are saying that all of scripture is God's communicating with the masses. You make that assertion after stating that everything in the NT is suspect because no one knows who wrote it. You really waffle, don't you? Maybe you just don't remember what you have written. Maybe you should go back and look.
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Yes, that is what I am saying, but obviously some scripture is more reliable than other scripture, if it was written by the actual Manifestation of God.

For (hopefully) the last time, this summarizes the official Baha'i position on the Bible.

From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice:

In studying the Bible Bahá'ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
(28 May 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
ecco said:
OK. But his followers have asserted that his claims are evidence.
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I cannot say what other followers assert, but I never asserted that because it is obvious to me that evidence is necessary to verify that the claims are true. Anyone can claim anything, but that does not make it true. :rolleyes:
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Bird123 said:
If you really understood, you would never needed to ask the 100 dollar questions.
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Do you mean those 100 dollar questions you cannot answer, like this one?
How do you think you can ever know God’s system or God’s actions? That is the 100-dollar question.

Apparently, you think you can know these things by "looking around" in the world, but the world reflects man's system and man's actions, not God's. God is not directly involved in this world.
Bird123 said:
If Beliefs are what you seek, I can not help you. Clearly, you are not ready. That's OK!
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Unless you can prove what you are saying is true, all you have are Beliefs.
I have Beliefs, you have Beliefs, we just have different beliefs. My Beliefs are based upon what a Manifestation of God has revealed, your Beliefs are based upon what you believe.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
No, it is logical, because either (a) Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, a Manifestation of God, or He was (b) a false prophet. It has to be either (a) or (b). If He was who He claimed to be then everything He claimed about Himself is the truth because Manifestations of God are infallible.
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Christians have that Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic or he is Lord. Of course their interpretation of Jesus is way different then who Baha'is say he is. But, what do Baha'is say about the people that have claimed to be the Messiah or an incarnation of a God? Since they are not acknowledged by the Baha'i Faith as being true manifestations, then do Baha'is believe them to be false prophets? And, since Jesus said many false prophets would arise before he returned, who do Baha'is say these people were?
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
CG Didymus said:
Christians have that Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic or he is Lord. Of course their interpretation of Jesus is way different then who Baha'is say he is. But, what do Baha'is say about the people that have claimed to be the Messiah or an incarnation of a God? Since they are not acknowledged by the Baha'i Faith as being true manifestations, then do Baha'is believe them to be false prophets?
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Baha'is say they are false prophets. That is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote, that no prophets could come with a revelation from God ere the expiration of 1000 years:
“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing!” Gleanings, p. 346
CG Didymus said:
And, since Jesus said many false prophets would arise before he returned, who do Baha'is say these people were?
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False prophets, men who either lied or were deluded and actually believed that they got communication from God.
 
Shad

Shad

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
Likewise, claiming something is not evidence does not mean it is not evidence.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:https://www.google.com/search
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Again your messenger made claims. For something to be evidence it must be a fact. Your messenger never provides any facts just more claims. Merely because you follow the man does not make his claims facts.
 
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