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Is this logical?

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
No, I said : That evidence is everything that surrounds His Life and Revelation, including His early life; His character; the history of His life; what He did during His mission on earth; the scriptures that He wrote (or scriptures written on His behalf);

But those things are all just part of the story, aren't they?

prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming;

Unfortunately, prophecies are a fickle thing. We have to assume that Jesus existed as described in the Bible to accept them, and the only thing we have to show this is, once again, the story.

predictions He made that have come to pass;

Again, this is just another part of the story.

the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation,

And what about all the other religions? Are they evidence that those faiths are correct?

what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

This isn't a very convincing argument. For example, have a look at the most religious parts of the USA. They are also the poorest and least educated.

What else would you expect to find for evidence, a little hat on His head saying "I am a Messenger of God?"

I'd expect something that could not have come about through purely human actions.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But those things are all just part of the story, aren't they?
Again, this is just another part of the story.
No, it is not a story. The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is contemporary history so it is a historical fact, and events that transpired can be verified from outside sources. We are not talking about the ancient Bible stories which are for the most part unverifiable.
Unfortunately, prophecies are a fickle thing. We have to assume that Jesus existed as described in the Bible to accept them, and the only thing we have to show this is, once again, the story.
Historians and scholars agree that Jesus existed, but I was not talking about Jesus fulfilling prophecies, I was talking about Baha'u'llah fulfilling them.
And what about all the other religions? Are they evidence that those faiths are correct?
No, the religions themselves are not evidence. The Person of the Messenger, what He did on His mission and the scriptures are the evidence.
I'd expect something that could not have come about through purely human actions.
You mean supernatural stuff? There is some of that but the problem is that it cannot be demonstrated to you now, because Baha'u'llah is not still alive.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
No, it is not a story. The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is contemporary history so it is a historical fact, and events that transpired can be verified from outside sources. We are not talking about the ancient Bible stories which are for the most part unverifiable.

Then we are dealing with sources which are thousands of years removed from the person they are describing. Again, they are just part of the story.

Historians and scholars agree that Jesus existed, but I was not talking about Jesus fulfilling prophecies, I was talking about Baha'u'llah fulfilling them.

No, you specifically said you were talking about EVERYTHING surrounding his life.

In any case, at best scholars agree that a figure named Jesus existed (which is far from universal among such scholars), but they can say nothing of his life, nor can they say he was divine in any way.

No, the religions themselves are not evidence. The Person of the Messenger, what He did on His mission and the scriptures are the evidence.

This still applies to other religions.

You mean supernatural stuff? There is some of that but the problem is that it cannot be demonstrated to you now, because Baha'u'llah is not still alive.

Are you suggesting that God has been rendered impotent?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Then we are dealing with sources which are thousands of years removed from the person they are describing. Again, they are just part of the story.
Sorry if I confused you. The sources that verify the Revelation of Baha’u’llah are from the 19th century, not thousands of years removed.
No, you specifically said you were talking about EVERYTHING surrounding his life.
I was talking about everything surrounding the life of Baha’u’llah, not Jesus. Baha’u’llah fulfilled the OT and NT prophecies, and that is part of the evidence that He was the Messiah/Return of Christ.
In any case, at best scholars agree that a figure named Jesus existed (which is far from universal among such scholars), but they can say nothing of his life, nor can they say he was divine in any way.
Most scholars agree that Jesus existed but no, they do not say he was divine.
“No, the religions themselves are not evidence. The Person of the Messenger, what He did on His mission and the scriptures are the evidence.”

This still applies to other religions.
Yes, it applies to any religion that was revealed by a Messenger of God.
Are you suggesting that God has been rendered impotent?
Are you suggesting that God should demonstrate the supernatural stuff because God is omnipotent?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Sorry if I confused you. The sources that verify the Revelation of Baha’u’llah are from the 19th century, not thousands of years removed.

Are they not talking about Jesus then? Would have been real nice if you'd actually specified this.

I was talking about everything surrounding the life of Baha’u’llah, not Jesus. Baha’u’llah fulfilled the OT and NT prophecies, and that is part of the evidence that He was the Messiah/Return of Christ.

When you bring the OT and NT into it, then we are talking about things that are thousands of years removed from the story.

Yes, it applies to any religion that was revealed by a Messenger of God.

And what happens when those religions disagree with yours?

Are you suggesting that God should demonstrate the supernatural stuff because God is omnipotent?

Why not?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Are they not talking about Jesus then? Would have been real nice if you'd actually specified this.

No, they are not talking about Jesus. According to my beliefs, Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God who came in the 19th century and He was the return of Christ and the Messiah the Jews have long awaited.
When you bring the OT and NT into it, then we are talking about things that are thousands of years removed from the story.
I do not know what you mean by “story.” The prophecies in the OT and NT were given so we would know who the Messiah and return of Christ was when He appeared in the future. In Daniel 12 and other verses, this was referred to as the time of the end, but it does not mean the end of the world, it means the end of an age. According to my Baha’i beliefs, the Age of Prophecy ended in 1844 when the Bab and Baha’u’llah ushered in a new age, called the Age of Fulfillment.
And what happens when those religions disagree with yours?
They disagree, and there is nothing that can be done about that, because most religious adherents believe that their religions are the only “true” religions, the best and the last revelations from God to humanity. Baha’is believe that their religions are true, but according to our beliefs, the remedy the world needs in this day is not the same remedy that the world needed thousands of years ago when the older religions were revealed, and that is why God sent a “new” Messenger with a new message.
“Are you suggesting that God should demonstrate the supernatural stuff because God is omnipotent?”

Why not?
Why should God do that? I guess the answer to why not is because God has not chosen to do so.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Wrong. The presentation of the evidence was done incorrectly as OJ had latex gloves on when he tried on the bloody gloves. The latex gloves he used caused friction and resistance to movement thus could not put the blood glove on. That does not mean the bloody glove does not fit OJ's hand without the latex glove on. Poor presentation can make some think the evidence is false but that does not establish evidence is false. The bloody glove is now a normal example of how to avoid a presentation leading to a false conclusion.

I believe either way the evidence was false.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Why do you say the glove was false? I saw parts of the trial, I saw the glove.

In any case, the glove, in and of itself was not evidence. To be evidence to support the prosecution, the prosecution had to prove it was OJ's glove. They failed to do that. Therefore, it became evidence that the prosecution was trying to frame OJ.

The evidence was not false.

I believe we need to get back to the concept of a claim. The court considers the glove as evidence. The claim made was that it was evidence that OJ committed murders because the glove was his. That claim is evidence also but turned out to be false evidence.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe the Christians have many interpretations but in order to include Jesus they twist the word of God to their own pleasure.

And where is Jesus? Anyone can say the words "Jesus is coming." The Christians have been saying that for eons, and still no Jesus. I believe it is a hope and nothing else.

I believe I interpret correctly with the help f the Holy Spirit.

I believe when God says He will do something that He will do it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe I interpret correctly with the help f the Holy Spirit.
Every Christian says that but since they interpret differently that means the Holy Spirit must be inconsistent.
I believe when God says He will do something that He will do it.
I also believe that, but God never said that the same Jesus was going to return to earth. Jesus never said that either.
In fact, Jesus said He finished His work and He wasn’t going to return to the world:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
 
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