Is it Possible to Prove Being the Messiah?

Desert Snake · Oct 7, 2019

ChristineM said:
No J in Latin,nor i think in ancient Greek.

What is the relevance to what I wrote? The 'j' is a letter correlate, that in english, has a different pronunciation.

[ Some argue that there is a 'j' in hebrew also.

When we pronounce a 'j' correlate it may sound different even though there is a 'j', however not always.

JeHoVaH

As an example, we don't use the english 'j' necessarily

ChristineM · Oct 7, 2019

Desert Snake said:
What is the relevance to what I wrote? The 'j' is a letter correlate, that in english, has a different pronunciation.

[ Some argue that there is a 'j' in hebrew also. When we pronounce a 'j' correlate it may sound different even though there is a 'j', however not always.
JeHoVaH

As an example, we don't use the english 'j' necessarily

I am pretty certain i was not addressing you, one moment while i check...

Nope i was addressing @Trailblazer to pass on information.

Trailblazer · Oct 7, 2019

ChristineM said:
Not all there is for every single atom in your body will continue for ever.

That is absolutely true. When the physical body dies it dies and remains dead. I does not rise from the grave.

ChristineM · Oct 7, 2019

Trailblazer said:
That is absolutely true. When the physical body dies it dies and remains dead. I does not rise from the grave.

The body as a whole doesnt but at least some the atoms and molecules will eventually be free of the grave and go towards making something else, a blade of grass, a mighty tree, even human beings,. In that way we are all made of dead people

rosends · Oct 7, 2019

wizanda said:
So Moses was wrong? Hosea didn't deliver his people into the promised land?

1. Not because of his name
2. That's not what the name means

wizanda said:
Words in Ancient Hebrew are not defined by being a noun, verb, etc the rules of adding additional letters apply to all words, like adding pictures to a story line.

You mean "in your opinion"...If we are just adding pictures, then letters as prefixes are meaningless.

wizanda said:
Tho this sounds perfectly reasonable that a name in our modern understanding couldn't have additional letters added to it, to change its tense...

This is a pictographic writing before the creation of these divisions, where every jot and tittle adds additional meanings.

Actually, jots and tittles are parts of an alphabet with letters, not part of pictographs so this as an argument is meaningless.

PruePhillip · Oct 7, 2019

ChristineM said:
Really? We can all be silly sometimes cant we but i dont think i have ever heard an atheist say what you claim. But of course i expect you can give examples of your claims

But i see you have not bothered trying to defend your claim by answering your own questions. After all, i showed that at least I am not evasive and replied honestly to your questions so fair is fair... Isn't it?

Not sure what my "own question" is.
Certainly there's lots of them. I used to be a science teacher.
But I want to disabuse those atheists who think theists are fools.

PruePhillip · Oct 7, 2019

ChristineM said:
The body as a whole doesnt but at least some the atoms and molecules will eventually be free of the grave and go towards making something else, a blade of grass, a mighty tree, even human beings,. In that way we are all made of dead people

I suggest you watch a video by Peter Fenwick
clinical psychologist and neurologist who pioneered work on the near death and pre-death experience
I love his observation that patients recall or observe things when there is zero brain function. Learning
about this aspect of humanity is deeply absorbing and humbling - we simply don't know what is
consciousness, and it points to something else within us not understood by science.

PruePhillip · Oct 7, 2019

Trailblazer said:
With all due respect, if Jesus finished His mission on earth, why would Jesus come back to earth again?
I just try to be logical in how I approach things.

Please note that maybe Jesus said the first sentence, but Jesus did not say any of the rest of what you quoted.
Jesus did not SAY that the temple was His body, that was someone else saying what they *believed* that Jesus meant by *temple.*

Do what?

Wait, wait, wait... do you have some original text predating John's gospel? People in the first century
painstakingly copied John's work and spread it all over the Roman empire. There's no variation in the
oldest texts we have. And John was alive right to the end of that century. By the next century all these
works were considered "canon", ie holy texts. Even the Catholic Church, which found some texts not
to its liking, dared not change them.

Besides, we have lots of texts, even in the Old Testament, which speak of the Messiah suffering and
dying for his people, and rising again.

Trailblazer · Oct 7, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Wait, wait, wait... do you have some original text predating John's gospel? People in the first century
painstakingly copied John's work and spread it all over the Roman empire. There's no variation in the
oldest texts we have. And John was alive right to the end of that century. By the next century all these
works were considered "canon", ie holy texts. Even the Catholic Church, which found some texts not
to its liking, dared not change them.

What is your point? Do you have any verses where Jesus says He is coming back to earth?
Do you have any verses where Jesus says He is going to build the Kingdom of God on earth?

PruePhillip said:
Besides, we have lots of texts, even in the Old Testament, which speak of the Messiah suffering and
dying for his people, and rising again.

Such as?

PruePhillip · Oct 7, 2019

Trailblazer said:
What is your point? Do you have any verses where Jesus says He is coming back to earth?
Do you have any verses where Jesus says He is going to build the Kingdom of God on earth?

Such as?

There are plenty of such verses. The whole OT is full of them. Two of my
favorites are:

Isaiah 53
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong.

Zechariah 12
On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem
a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have
pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child

This is the Messiah as both Redeemer and King. Suffering in the flesh
and returning to reign over the nations (the so-called Second Coming)

blü 2 · Oct 7, 2019

wizanda said:
The most probable when we get how precise some of the prophecies are, and how we can show most people in this world have very little clue about it...

Hit me with your best shot, the clearest, least ambiguous, most unarguable example of all.

Dawnofhope · Oct 7, 2019

wizanda said:
We have numerous religious textual references, and ideas to backup the idea of who is the Messiah; yet as we see with Yeshua's fulfilment of prophecy, some people will go against it through a lack of study...

So is it ever really possible to actually prove it for sure using careful exegesis or are people to argumentative to really listen?

In my opinion.

We are responsible for one life and one life only and that is our own. It is our responsibility to recognise and follow the Messiah when He comes and to avoid following false Messiahs.

Vinayaka · Oct 7, 2019

adrian009 said:
We are responsible for one life and one life only and that is our own. It is our responsibility to recognise and follow the Messiah when He comes and to avoid following false Messiahs.

Or to not believe in the messiah concept at all. Trust me, that's easier. Far less arguing.

PruePhillip · Oct 7, 2019

blü 2 said:
Hit me with your best shot, the clearest, least ambiguous, most unarguable example of all.

There will be a Messiah.
There will be a Hebrew nation.
The Hebrews will reject their Messiah.
The Hebrews will lose their nation
The Gentiles will believe upon the Messiah
When the Gentiles no longer believe the Hebrews will return to their land
The Messiah will return as King

Trailblazer · Oct 7, 2019

PruePhillip said:
There are plenty of such verses. The whole OT is full of them. Two of my
favorites are:

Isaiah 53
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong.

Zechariah 12
On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem
a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have
pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child

This is the Messiah as both Redeemer and King. Suffering in the flesh
and returning to reign over the nations (the so-called Second Coming)

Why do you think these verses refer to Jesus?
What proof do you have?

The OT is full of verses that refer to the Messiah but most of them do not refer to Jesus...
We know that because we can see that Jesus did not fulfill these prophecies.

What you think that "Jesus will do" when He returns is just a hope, and not based upon anything Jesus ever said He would do.

Dawnofhope · Oct 7, 2019

Vinayaka said:
Or to not believe in the messiah concept at all. Trust me, that's easier. Far less arguing.

That's certainly an option though the presence or absence of a Messiah doesn't necessarily make it easier or result in less arguments.

I like your new avatar btw.

Trailblazer · Oct 7, 2019

Vinayaka said:
Or to not believe in the messiah concept at all. Trust me, that's easier. Far less arguing.

I'll second that.

PruePhillip · Oct 7, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Why do you think these verses refer to Jesus?
What proof do you have?

The OT is full of verses that refer to the Messiah but most of them do not refer to Jesus...
We know that because we can see that Jesus did not fulfill these prophecies.

What you think that "Jesus will do" when He returns is just a hope, and not based upon anything Jesus ever said He would do.

It's certainly an important question.
The power of the Gospel is the first point - no "religion" has this force.
Secondly, the alignment with the Gospel account and the OT prophecies (ie Daniel
says that Messiah will come while the temple still stands, but he will be "cut off" for
his people's sake by the enemy that will destroy Israel. Who else could that be?)

Trailblazer · Oct 7, 2019

PruePhillip said:
It's certainly an important question.
The power of the Gospel is the first point - no "religion" has this force.
Secondly, the alignment with the Gospel account and the OT prophecies (ie Daniel
says that Messiah will come while the temple still stands, but he will be "cut off" for
his people's sake by the enemy that will destroy Israel. Who else could that be?)

Do you know what chapter and verses that is in Daniel?
I was not raised as a Christian so unfortunately I do not know the Bible very well. What I know I have learned during the last seven years posting to Christians and Jews on forums...

I do know about many prophecies, but certainly not all of them. I know certain ones cannot be about Jesus.

For example, regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, but He was esteemed by many men.

Certainly, Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 can apply to Jesus, but Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.

PruePhillip · Oct 7, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Do you know what chapter and verses that is in Daniel?
I was not raised as a Christian so unfortunately I do not know the Bible very well. What I know I have learned during the last seven years posting to Christians and Jews on forums...

I do know about many prophecies, but certainly not all of them. I know certain ones cannot be about Jesus.

For example, regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, but He was esteemed by many men.

Certainly, Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 can apply to Jesus, but Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.

Be wary of religions that base their doctrines upon prophecies. I figure most of these,
even correct ones, are a form of fear mongering (ie Jehovah Witness) But for the most
part there are motives for the church prophetic interpretations. I recall some churches
teaching that the beast with ten horns was the European Union as it had ten members.
But now there's about 25 members in the EU.

Is it Possible to Prove Being the Messiah?

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