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What is reality in Zen Buddhism?

The Sum of Awe

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Is it an expression of The Void? Is The Void conscious in some way?

Does this illusory world exist as a random occurence from Void or does it exist for a reason? Perhaps that's the difference between Zen and Vedanta?
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
The Sum of Awe said:
Is it an expression of The Void? Is The Void conscious in some way?

Does this illusory world exist as a random occurence from Void or does it exist for a reason? Perhaps that's the difference between Zen and Vedanta?
Click to expand...

Not that I'm an expert but Zen to me seems more about being in the moment. The purpose of Zen meditation is to still or quiet the mind so it doesn't interfere with the experience of reality in the moment.

The "void" I heard expressed as empty awareness. The experience of non-mind. So reality being fully experienced without judgement or thoughts/thinking about reality.
 
leov

leov

Well-Known Member
Nakosis said:
Not that I'm an expert but Zen to me seems more about being in the moment. The purpose of Zen meditation is to still or quiet the mind so it doesn't interfere with the experience of reality in the moment.

The "void" I heard expressed as empty awareness. The experience of non-mind. So reality being fully experienced without judgement or thoughts/thinking about reality.
Click to expand...
"Be still, and know that I am God. ..."
 
Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I am no expert on Zen Buddhism, SOA, but I suspect the answer to your question "What is Reality in Zen" will vary somewhat depending on which Zen monk or master you are talking about.

Now having said that, the only Zen master that I myself know anything about when it comes to their notion of what reality is Dogen Kigen. I recall he lived in the first half of the 13th century and was the founder of the Soto school of Zen.

According to Dogen, everything is made of time. That is, time is the basic "substance" or nature of reality. So, for instance, the tree in your yard is made of time. The bird in the tree is made of time. The blue color of the bird is made of time. Even your self is made of time. Even good and evil are made of time.

Hence, for Dogen, all of the things that most of us call "beings" are fundamentally, basically made of time. Dogen thus uses a Japanese word or term for things -- which I don't remember -- that means "being-time". All things -- everything -- are units of being-time.

Now, one of the implications of the fact that everything is made of time is that everything flows. That is, nothing that exists is permanent.

I hope that helps. I don't really know a whole lot about what reality is in Zen.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
leov said:
in Buddhism: Buddhist deities - Wikipedia
when people meditate they enter different world, spirit world, it is inhabited and i expect reflections, as above article in wiki?
Click to expand...

Sure, folks can believe in different deities. Belief in a God is not required for Buddhism however.

Although not all Buddhist sects are the same. Some accept Sunyata as a kind of source of creation. So defacto "God" per some definitions. Siddhartha Gautama supposedly doesn't directly address the question of God's existence in his teachings. God's existence is irrelevant to Buddhist "enlightenment".
 
leov

leov

Well-Known Member
Nakosis said:
Sure, folks can believe in different deities. Belief in a God is not required for Buddhism however.

Although not all Buddhist sects are the same. Some accept Sunyata as a kind of source of creation. So defacto "God" per some definitions. Siddhartha Gautama supposedly doesn't directly address the question of God's existence in his teachings. God's existence is irrelevant to Buddhist "enlightenment".
Click to expand...
i understand there are two side s to Buddhism, a philosophy and a religion. years ago i understood that Gautama did not really addressed existence of God especially knowing about devas, e.t.c.
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
The Sum of Awe said:
Is it an expression of The Void? Is The Void conscious in some way?

Does this illusory world exist as a random occurence from Void or does it exist for a reason? Perhaps that's the difference between Zen and Vedanta?
Click to expand...
The World is not illusory. It's just not substance-based. It's empty of "substance" because you cannot pin it down to any one single factor. (For example, one might posit "all is vibration." However, you cannot have vibration without space, so there are two interacting factors involved there, not one. Reality is composed of aggregates, not a single substance.) Instead, Buddhism focuses on the process-based interdependent co-arising (with space as a requisite factor, vibration may arise.) This is all very much within reason and follows cause and effect.

The Void is really a Taoist concept--not necessarily a Buddhist one. However, there were all sorts of interesting speculations when the Taoists tried to equate the Taoist Void with Buddhist emptiness. (They are not the same. The thing that makes the comparative speculations really interesting is that it gives insight into the workings of the human mind--specifically Jung's transcendent function..)
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Sunstone said:
I am no expert on Zen Buddhism, SOA, but I suspect the answer to your question "What is Reality in Zen" will vary somewhat depending on which Zen monk or master you are talking about.

Now having said that, the only Zen master that I myself know anything about when it comes to their notion of what reality is Dogen Kigen. I recall he lived in the first half of the 13th century and was the founder of the Soto school of Zen.

According to Dogen, everything is made of time. That is, time is the basic "substance" or nature of reality. So, for instance, the tree in your yard is made of time. The bird in the tree is made of time. The blue color of the bird is made of time. Even your self is made of time. Even good and evil are made of time.

Hence, for Dogen, all of the things that most of us call "beings" are fundamentally, basically made of time. Dogen thus uses a Japanese word or term for things -- which I don't remember -- that means "being-time". All things -- everything -- are units of being-time.

Now, one of the implications of the fact that everything is made of time is that everything flows. That is, nothing that exists is permanent.

I hope that helps. I don't really know a whole lot about what reality is in Zen.
Click to expand...
Dogen Zenji, probably the more familiar name in addition to the name Kigen.

I wonder at times why Zen Masters need all those names?
 
The Sum of Awe

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Sunstone said:
I am no expert on Zen Buddhism, SOA, but I suspect the answer to your question "What is Reality in Zen" will vary somewhat depending on which Zen monk or master you are talking about.

Now having said that, the only Zen master that I myself know anything about when it comes to their notion of what reality is Dogen Kigen. I recall he lived in the first half of the 13th century and was the founder of the Soto school of Zen.

According to Dogen, everything is made of time. That is, time is the basic "substance" or nature of reality. So, for instance, the tree in your yard is made of time. The bird in the tree is made of time. The blue color of the bird is made of time. Even your self is made of time. Even good and evil are made of time.

Hence, for Dogen, all of the things that most of us call "beings" are fundamentally, basically made of time. Dogen thus uses a Japanese word or term for things -- which I don't remember -- that means "being-time". All things -- everything -- are units of being-time.

Now, one of the implications of the fact that everything is made of time is that everything flows. That is, nothing that exists is permanent.

I hope that helps. I don't really know a whole lot about what reality is in Zen.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. It's not often you hear someone define existence as a product of time instead of vice versa. Does he mean that we are condensed time in some way, or that we are a representation of time?

crossfire said:
The World is not illusory. It's just not substance-based. It's empty of "substance" because you cannot pin it down to any one single factor. (For example, one might posit "all is vibration." However, you cannot have vibration without space, so there are two interacting factors involved there, not one. Reality is composed of aggregates, not a single substance.) Instead, Buddhism focuses on the process-based interdependent co-arising (with space as a requisite factor, vibration may arise.) This is all very much within reason and follows cause and effect.

The Void is really a Taoist concept--not necessarily a Buddhist one. However, there were all sorts of interesting speculations when the Taoists tried to equate the Taoist Void with Buddhist emptiness. (They are not the same. The thing that makes the comparative speculations really interesting is that it gives insight into the workings of the human mind--specifically Jung's transcendent function..)
Click to expand...

What is the difference in the concepts? I haven't heard of the Taoist Void before, I always thought the Taoist cosmological concept was more like Qi, a form of interconnected life force.
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
leov said:
i understand there are two side s to Buddhism, a philosophy and a religion. years ago i understood that Gautama did not really addressed existence of God especially knowing about devas, e.t.c.
Click to expand...
Buddha Sakyamuni (Gautama) said something similar to that He could not see a Creator God, but that did not mean it is not other Gods, Buddhas, Devas, it means there is no God that sits on top and rules over every tiny aspect of life.
And for human beings, it is more important to look within our self, then look elsewhere to find God. God/Buddha is within us all, we just need to see it.
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
The Sum of Awe said:
What is the difference in the concepts? I haven't heard of the Taoist Void before, I always thought the Taoist cosmological concept was more like Qi, a form of interconnected life force.
Click to expand...
Buddhist Emptiness means empty of Self/empty of substance. The Taoist Void might be likened to Wuji, from which Taiji (Yin yang) emerges.
 
leov

leov

Well-Known Member
Amanaki said:
Buddha Sakyamuni (Gautama) said something similar to that He could not see a Creator God, but that did not mean it is not other Gods, Buddhas, Devas, it means there is no God that sits on top and rules over every tiny aspect of life.
And for human beings, it is more important to look within our self, then look elsewhere to find God. God/Buddha is within us all, we just need to see it.
Click to expand...
Is possible that Buddha realized that the true Sustainer is Unknowable?
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
leov said:
Is possible that Buddha realized that the true Sustainer is Unknowable?
Click to expand...
No :) truth in the way I understand Buddhism is the Dharma itself. there is nothing that created it in the universe we live in now :)
(Dharma means Cosmic Law and order)
 
leov

leov

Well-Known Member
Amanaki said:
No :) truth in the way I understand Buddhism is the Dharma itself. there is nothing that created it in the universe we live in now :)
(Dharma means Cosmic Law and order)
Click to expand...
I understand that Sustainer is beyond Dharma.
 
Aupmanyav

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The Sum of Awe said:
Is it an expression of The Void? Is The Void conscious in some way?

Does this illusory world exist as a random occurence from Void or does it exist for a reason? Perhaps that's the difference between Zen and Vedanta?
Click to expand...
The void is not conscious. It just exists (Brahman in Hinduism) and its very existence is enough to create all illusions.

Vedanta like Hinduism is an umbrella. An umbrella beneath a larger umbrella. There are all sort of views in Vedanta. From duality to 'absolute oneness' (my view). The illusion ('maya') is not random. It is very ordered. For that reason, it is very difficult to recognize it and we are lead in to various deceptions - many deities, one deity, universal consciousness, etc. Vedanta - Wikipedia

There is no reason, as Buddha said - 'codependent origination', 'skandhas'. There is no difference between my Hindu view and that of Buddha. Existence and non-existence are just phases of 'what exists', Brahman, 'physical energy'; and virtual particles arise out of and dissipate in to 'absolute nothing' all the time.
 
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Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
The Sum of Awe said:
That's interesting. It's not often you hear someone define existence as a product of time instead of vice versa. Does he mean that we are condensed time in some way, or that we are a representation of time?
Click to expand...

It's not always easy to translate Japanese concepts into Western concepts. This is especially true, I believe, whenever dealing with anything along the lines of "being". When I speak of time as the nature or substance of all things for Dogen, you might want to think more along the lines of Dogen saying that the properties of time are the fundamental properties of everything. Thus, he does not mean that everything is "condensed time" but that everything on its most fundamental level is "like time". For instance, everything is impermanent just like time is impermanent.

Of course, I am no expert here.
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Sunstone said:
It's not always easy to translate Japanese concepts into Western concepts. This is especially true, I believe, whenever dealing with anything along the lines of "being". When I speak of time as the nature or substance of all things for Dogen, you might want to think more along the lines of Dogen saying that the properties of time are the fundamental properties of everything. Thus, he does not mean that everything is "condensed time" but that everything on its most fundamental level is "like time". For instance, everything is impermanent just like time is impermanent.

Of course, I am no expert here.
Click to expand...
One of the three marks of existence is impermanence. (The others being non-substance based (anatta) and unsatisfactoriness (dukkha.))
 
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