Darkforbid
Well-Known Member
It's a brilliant muti level text, the start of life, Adam's departure from Eden, a rome/Juliet love story and so much more
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Christian Bible context only: God’s laws for sex and marriage
- Thread starter Jim
- Start date
It's a brilliant muti level text, the start of life, Adam's departure from Eden, a rome/Juliet love story and so much more
Jim
Nets of Wonder
Thank you.
What did I say in the OP, that you see conflicting with that? The part about a prohibition against substituting men in the place of women, for joining with a man in a way that resembles the kind of joining that sometimes produces children?
Jim
Nets of Wonder
Another question: Do you think that everything that David and Jonathan do is in accordance with the laws of God, according to Old Testament prophets? If so, what are your reasons for thinking that?
sugnim
Member
I don't see anything that conflicts with what you said. But, I think that the way people have interpreted these two stories can sometimes conflict with each other. The only thing I can think of that would conflict with your original post is the story of Onan, as sometimes interpreted. He withdrew before ejaculating into his deceased brother's wife. Some say this is a prohibition on sexual stimulation without intent to reproduce. I don't see it that way, but some people do, and through such a lens, the story would conflict with your understanding.
As for God's laws according to the prophets, those sometimes contradict themselves. So, I can't say what is in accordance with those laws or not.
In my view, humans have a birth right to use freely their bodies, minds, and hearts to love and connect in any way that brings joy to themselves and their partners without harming others.
Road Less Traveled
Active Member
Jim
Nets of Wonder
I’ve been thinking about that. I’ll post about that later.
Road Less Traveled
Active Member
Jim
Nets of Wonder
It depends on whether or not Jesus is saying that it would be better for human life on this physical world to end with the death of all the people living in His time. If not, then he can’t be saying that it would be better for all people not to marry. All things considered, I don’t think that’s what He means.
Road Less Traveled
Active Member
I understand what you mean by ‘Christian Bible context’ only, however I don’t think the Bible is exclusive to the label ‘Christian.’ That is okay though.
Observing around us today, there are those that have it in them to marry. There are those that have it in them not to. There are those that have it in them to, yet choose not to. In moderation, benefits to each. Each their own. Many marriages are for most of the wrong reasons to begin with, and with vows not kept, all sorts of issues arising. That’s why I’d personally find it only wise to potentially marry if both beings are already each individually united and wholesome inside.
Regarding the positives and/or negatives as to reproducing, that is another subject.
Jim
Nets of Wonder
Moses specifies some rules for husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, sons and daughters. Those are also mentioned by the prophets.
Jim
Nets of Wonder
I specified Christian Bible because sometimes Jews call the Tanakh “the Bible.” Not to exclude Jews from this discussion, but that arguments here need to be from the Christian Bible and not the Tanakh.
Jim
Nets of Wonder
@Road Less Traveled It looks to me like when Jesus and the people questioning Him say “marry,” they’re referring to the first time a man and woman join physically, and not to any other kind of marriage.
Road Less Traveled
Active Member
Hmm... widening the context a little: a single eye (internally united) will lead to much better choices, including physical marriage or the ability to resist physical marriage. A house divided against itself would lead to instability. Ourselves, each our own house. And the expansion of that would be a collection of individuals. That’s at least how I perceive.
I also perceive an ever deeper meaning, or at least practical meaning under the symbolism that has nothing to do with being physical.
Jim
Nets of Wonder
Maybe so, and I’ll be glad for you to say any more about that that you would like to. As I said, I think now that all I was looking for was any examples that anyone could find of Old Testament prophets disagreeing with what I said in the OP. I’ve revised the OP to try to clarify what I was thinking.
The reason I’m asking is because in another thread someone asked what’s wrong with premarital sex. The only kind of sex that I see as strictly prohibited by God is physical union between a person and an animal, physical union between two men. and physical union of a man with a woman who has joined physically with another man and has not been divorced from him. Sex as physical union is impossible between a man and a woman before they are married because the first time they do it, they are married. There is no kind of sex between two women that is strictly prohibited. Sex as physical union between two men is possible before they are married, and prohibited, but not being married has nothing to do with it.
Jim
Nets of Wonder
That does interest me. What deeper meanings do you see in the prohibitions against physical union other than of a man with a woman who is not another man’s wife? What deeper meanings do you see in what Jesus says about eunuchs?
Christian prophets always explain from the law about marriage. Everything is bounced off of that. Marriage is for more than reproduction. Its for happiness, peace, children and also for some other things.
In addition to reproduction there are some other reasons for marriage, some even more important than reproduction (debatable). A new husband stays in town for the first year (Deut 24:5), specifically to make the wife happy. It implies that there is a responsibility to make her happy at other times as well. Is that happiness more important than reproduction? Maybe. I am not in a position to debate about it, but I can see that there could be a debate. This may relate to your questions about same sex but am not sure.
So in addition to reproduction, marriage is about happiness. It can't be just any marriage but should be a happy one. The prophets expand on this.
Marriage is also about non-violence. In the biblical times marriages are arranged, and this is an important matter for bringing people together. In addition it combats violence another way. The laws mention a spirit of jealousy that comes upon men, seemingly for no reason. They get jealous, and their jealousy is violent in nature. Several stories have this violent jealousy in them. Marriage is expected to play a part in damping that violent nature. Its designed to be a peacemaking influence.
Jesus lays a lot of responsibility upon the male to make the marriage work. Someone (above) mentioned Jesus comments about divorce and eunuchs. What's happening there I think is Jesus is saying that even if the wife won't have sex with her husband, maybe he should still not divorce her. The term 'Eunuch' there probably means that if he's married and she won't have sex with him, he's a eunuch unless he divorces. The law specifies the man must be available at least monthly for his wife for sex, but it doesn't specify that she must be available for him (though that might be a provision in marriage contracts). Jesus opinion here is the man should win her back in this case. Those he's speaking to do not like what he's saying and think if he's correct then its better not to marry. Its not clear how they believe marriages ought to operate, but it appears that they do not put as much responsibility upon the husband to keep the marriage happy.
Most of the laws are for Jewish men, and its men who are supposed to know them and teach them to the children. This affects Christianity. Yes, technically the sex of the parent has something to do with who does what in Jewish society. There's a typical mom/dad scenario.
Marriage is also about bringing men to their children to educate those children, father to child and not mother to child. This affects Christianity. Whereas a man tends to want to go off to be alone, let the wife take care of the kids and only sometimes see the children, the laws specify he must teach his children. I think this is indirectly why we read Paul (Christian) saying "I do not allow a woman to teach a man" to Timothy. Its a difficult passage. Paul also says that in Christ there is neither male nor female, so how else to account for this statement about women teachers when there is neither male nor female? We're no longer talking about Jewish scripture, yet the teacher adopts the student into their family. We see, as with the Jewish people, Paul wants the Christians to have men doing the teaching. The next question then is why is he sticking to this family arrangement with the teacher being like a father? I don't know all of the answers.
I imagine a teacher-student relationship is intended to be a much more intimate arrangement than having a lecturer or just being an acquaintance of the teacher. I am not sure exactly how this affects your thoughts on same sex marriage, but in the Christian writers there are recognized differences between the sexes when it comes to teaching. It pays to be aware of it when you are considering questions about same sex relationships and what Christian prophets might have to say about them. They don't say a lot on the subject, but there are clues about what might impact the subject.
Jim
Nets of Wonder
Thank you. That’s very helpful, and it gives me a lot to think about.
Jim
Nets of Wonder
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone saying that Moses or any other Old Testament prophet disagrees with anything I said in the OP. I’m surprised, and a little disappointed. I don’t know if it’s because no one can find anything, or because it doesn’t interest anyone enough to do the search.
Neutral Name
Active Member
This is an interesting article about many in the Old Testament marrying several wives and having concubines. Polygamy was allowable. So, one man and one woman was not the case.
God's Plan For Marriage: Dealing With Old Testament Polygamy
Jim
Nets of Wonder
Thank you.
It looks to me like the law according to Moses prohibits a man from marrying a woman who is another man’s wife, but does not limit how many women a man can marry.