Lies and Phony Caricatures of Christianity

SkepticThinker said:

Bible scholars have done the homework and most agree with what I said. Where do you think I got it from? My own Bible says right in it that the Gospel writers are unknown.

Click to expand...

That's true.. the gospels were anonymous for 200 years and are only called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John out of tradition.

usfan said:

My, my. A lot of pent up hostility, there.. or maybe not so 'pent up!'

Feel better? I don't mind being a scape goat for all the false narratives and caricatures you believe are true. Discussing things like this rationally and evidentiary is no easy task.. all these emotions to deal with..

Click to expand...

Yeah.
I feel a lot better.
Because you could not answer one single point.

You could not answer my point about Paul receiving direct support from your God for slave trade and ownership.

You could not answer my point about Christians being bigoted about Gays.

You could not answer my enquiry for any five hospitals paid for by Christians in the last 20 years.
A deception?

Gotcha! So easy!

I come to think that your opinions could be the unacceptable face of Christianity which has caused so many enemies. I know so many decent Christians, you see....

sojourner said:

You’re forgetting the part about the late dating of the texts and the likelihood that the apostles were illiterate, based on cultural anthropology.

Click to expand...

Matthew was a tax collector so he could probably read. Luke never met Jesus and lived in Antioch so he probably could read and write Greek and Aramaic. Not very likely that the others could read.

Spartan said:

Not necessarily. It could well have been an oral tradition dating from the time of Christ that finally made its way into the Gospel of Mark. Oral traditions were a big thing back then.

Click to expand...

Most reputable scholars — certainly the ones tapped to work on biblical translations — don’t believe so. Most bibles separate the questionable material, including only as “a later addition” and “a shorter ending.” This is because, when the added material is exegeted in context of the rest of Mark’s story, it does not jibe.

sooda said:

Matthew was a tax collector so he could probably read. Luke never met Jesus and lived in Antioch so he probably could read and write Greek and Aramaic. Not very likely that the others could read.

Click to expand...

Maybe. Maybe. But when we do Damone the cultural anthropology, we find that during the time of Jesus, only royal and governmental edicts were permanently written. All other writing — such as might be done by a tax man — we’re done on clay tablets and were not permanent. Even if the apostles were the authors, the stories would likely have been originally oral until someone else wrote them down much later. Stories like that generally were not written, but told.

sojourner said:

Most reputable scholars — certainly the ones tapped to work on biblical translations — don’t believe so. Most bibles separate the questionable material, including only as “a later addition” and “a shorter ending.” This is because, when the added material is exegeted in context of the rest of Mark’s story, it does not jibe.

Click to expand...

Isn't it funny who is always chiming in about "oral traditions"?

sojourner said:

Maybe. Maybe. But when we do Damone the cultural anthropology, we find that during the time of Jesus, only royal and governmental edicts were permanently written. All other writing — such as might be done by a tax man — we’re done on clay tablets and were not permanent. Even if the apostles were the authors, the stories would likely have been originally oral until someone else wrote them down much later. Stories like that generally were not written, but told.

Click to expand...

Why wouldn't the clay tablets have been permanent? They have found thousands of them in Bahrain.. business transactions, inventories and ancient myths.

sooda said:

Why wouldn't the clay tablets have been permanent? They have found thousands of them in Bahrain.. business transactions, inventories and ancient myths.

Click to expand...

Some have certainly survived, but they were never intended to be permanent. The clay was fitted into a wooden frame and was intended to be scraped clean and reused. More like a notepad than a document.

sojourner said:

Some have certainly survived, but they were never intended to be permanent. The clay was fitted into a wooden frame and was intended to be scraped clean and reused. More like a notepad than a document.

Click to expand...

Scraped and reused? I never thought of that. I thought they were still wet when they were inscribed.

sooda said:

Scraped and reused? I never thought of that. I thought they were still wet when they were inscribed.

Click to expand...

They were. A wooden stylus was used. Then, when they were finished, the worked clay could be reset and wiped clean. Permanent writing was done on papyrus or even parchment. Those materials, being very expensive, were reserved, as I said, for official and permanent writings only. Most people were illiterate and so didn’t even use clay.

sojourner said:

They were. A wooden stylus was used. Then, when they were finished, the worked clay could be reset and wiped clean. Permanent writing was done on papyrus or even parchment. Those materials, being very expensive, were reserved, as I said, for official and permanent writings only. Most people were illiterate and so didn’t even use clay.

Click to expand...

I guess so.. I learned something today.

The name Byblos came from the Greek Bublos, meaning papyrus, which was one of the main trading commodities transported from this Mediterranean port... Byblos is very old.. first occupied between 8800 and 7000 BC and continuously inhabited since 5000 BC...

sooda said:

That's true.. the gospels were anonymous for 200 years and are only called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John out of tradition.

Click to expand...

My understanding is that Saul of Tarsus aka Paul got hold of these anonymous documents named them after the disciples to dodge them and imported in them pagan-Christ concepts to make god or son of god out of it. Paul, it is understood, knew that Jesus had gone out of Judea and cannot correct the wrong narratives Paul had made "the sheep" to believe. Right, please?

Regards

sooda said:

I guess so.. I learned something today.

The name Byblos came from the Greek Bublos, meaning papyrus, which was one of the main trading commodities transported from this Mediterranean port... Byblos is very old.. first occupied between 8800 and 7000 BC and continuously inhabited since 5000 BC...

Click to expand...

Cool! Especially since books (Gk: biblio) would have originally been made from papyrus.

sooda said:

Matthew was a tax collector so he could probably read. Luke never met Jesus and lived in Antioch so he probably could read and write Greek and Aramaic. Not very likely that the others could read.

Click to expand...

Matthew was probably a low-order Levite and not a Galilean. Sub-tax officers (publicans) were usually recruited from the ranks of the Levites. A local man in that job would have been disrespected and possibly killed.

Judas could also have previously been a publican. He was good at math and with money, and Celcus wrote (copied by Origen) that there were two tax officers among the twelve disciples. That's interesting because a detractor wrote it. Judas BenSimon must have been a very hard man to have a nickname such as his.

sojourner said:

Cool! Especially since books (Gk: biblio) would have originally been made from papyrus.

Click to expand...

I got to visit Byblos and Baalbek years ago.. They are just amazing.

sojourner said:

Cool! Especially since books (Gk: biblio) would have originally been made from papyrus.

Click to expand...

I liked that post from @sooda as well.

oldbadger said:

Matthew was probably a low-order Levite and not a Galilean. Sub-tax officers (publicans) were usually recruited from the ranks of the Levites. A local man in that job would have been disrespected and possibly killed.

Judas could also have previously been a publican. He was good at math and with money, and Celcus wrote (copied by Origen) that there were two tax officers among the twelve disciples. That's interesting because a detractor wrote it. Judas BenSimon must have been a very hard man to have a nickname such as his.

Click to expand...

I had always read that Matthew was despised because he collected taxes for the Romans.

sooda said:

I had always read that Matthew was despised because he collected taxes for the Romans.

Click to expand...

Yes. Although there were no Roman troops in Galilee because Antipas supplied his own, the senior tax official for an area was Roman, or so I have read. And sub-tax officers (publicans) were recruited from the Levites. This interests me greatly because, of course, Matthew is referred to as Levi; I wonder if in fact Matthew was 'Matthew the Levite'.??

oldbadger said:

Yes. Although there were no Roman troops in Galilee because Antipas supplied his own, the senior tax official for an area was Roman, or so I have read. And sub-tax officers (publicans) were recruited from the Levites. This interests me greatly because, of course, Matthew is referred to as Levi; I wonder if in fact Matthew was 'Matthew the Levite'.??

Click to expand...

Matthew is the Greek name and Levi was the Hebrew name. As a tax collector, Matthew worked for Greek-speaking Romans. He gathered taxes from Hebrew-speaking Jews. We see, as an example, Peter also being called Simon (Matt. 16:16).

https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/was-taxman-named-matthew-or-levi

@usfan ...... you still have not managed to give a meaningful answer to my suggestions. But don't worry because I will collect and list the lot for you to review when I have time.

But for now, why is it that so many US Christians support the death penalty, guns, violence and killing? They do, don't they!

These are the Christian passages that they point to when confronted:-

Matthew {10:34} Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Luke {22:36} Then said he unto them, But now, he that
hath a purse, let him take [it,] and likewise [his] scrip: and
he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

John {2:15} And when he had made a scourge of
small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the
sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money,
and overthrew the tables;

Revelation {1:13} And in the midst of the seven
candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a
garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a
golden girdle. {1:14} His head and [his] hairs [were] white
like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame
of fire; {1:15} And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they
burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many
waters. {1:16} And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength

Revelation {2:16} Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.