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Who will get to heaven?

Jeremiah Ames

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
England my lionheart said:
What about people who lead good lives but have no religion?
Click to expand...

A very worthy question indeed.
I understand it as speaking of ALL people, period.
But I can’t speak for Swedenborg.

Similar to a bar owner saying “all well behaved people are allowed in my bar, regardless of the color of their sombreros”.
I don’t see how this specifically eliminates anyone not wearing a sombrero. It only eliminates people with bad behavior.
 
Jeremiah Ames

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
MJFlores said:
quote-the-nature-of-heaven-is-to-provide-a-place-there-for-all-who-lead-good-lives-no-matter-emanuel-swedenborg-72-96-33.jpg


Do you see the difference?
His quote: ".....all who lead good lives."
The bible: there is no one who does good, not even one

What can I say?
There is no such people.
Not even me or anybody.
Click to expand...

You make continued ad hominem attacks, without any knowledge of the author’s works.

So let me share some statements from Swedenborg, should you take the time to read them:


“[3] We can illustrate this by the Lord's words, "Let your speech be 'Yes, yes; no, no.' Anything beyond this comes from evil" (Matthew 5:37). This is how everyone talks in the third heaven. The people there never try to figure out whether divine things are true or not; they see within themselves, from the Lord, whether they are true or not. This means that the reason people try to figure out whether divine things are true or not is that such thinkers are not seeing them from the Lord. They are trying to see them on their own, and whatever we see on our own is evil.” Divine Providence 219(3)


“[11] It is different with a love of eminence and wealth for the sake of service. This is a heavenly love because it is the same as a love for our neighbor, as just noted.


"Service" means good actions, so performing services means doing good things; and performing services or doing good things means helping others and serving them. Even though the people who are doing this are eminent and wealthy, they still do not regard their eminence and wealth as anything but means to being helpful and therefore means to service and ministry. These are the people meant by the Lord's statement, "Whoever of you wants to be great, must be your servant; whoever of you wants to be first must be your slave" (Matthew 20:26-27). These are also the people whom the Lord entrusts with authority in heaven. For them, authority is a means of helping or doing good, that is, of serving; and when services or good actions are the goals or the loves, then it is not they who are in authority but the Lord, because everything good comes from him. “. Divine Providence 215(11)


I hope you read it all, to the last part “everything good comes from him”
 
Prestor John

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
siti said:
What about Adam? And Eve?
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Adam and Eve were selected from the choicest of God's children to be the Patriarch and Matriarch of the human family.
siti said:
I mean your optimistic statistics could be a bit off if we consider that 3 out of the first 4 humans reported to have existed (Adam, Eve and Cain) all (presumably) had perfect knowledge of God and betrayed him - don't you think.
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Neither Adam nor Eve ever betrayed God.

This idea that Adam and Eve did something wicked when they partook the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is very new, not agreed upon by the whole of Judeo-Christian religions and erroneous according to various books of scripture.

Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit had always been a crucial component of God's plan for His children because it caused them to enter into mortality, where their testing and eternal progression would continue.

We are all destined to become like God and spending time in mortality progresses us toward that goal by giving us experience with having a Knowledge of Good and Evil, just as God Himself said, "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Genesis 3:22) (Bold, italics and underline added)

Cain, on the other hand, openly rejected the greater counsel from God, hearkened to the voice of Satan by forming a covenant with him, murdered his brother and lied to God.
siti said:
On that basis, I reckon the "darkness" could get pretty cramped.
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No. It is a false basis.
siti said:
It would also appear that ignorance is by the far the best protection - wouldn't that suggest that most loving thing for Christians to do would be to immediately cease any preaching and teaching activities and try not to mention anything about God in casual conversation?
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No, the exact opposite is true. It is by faith that we are saved. It is faith, not ignorance, that is our best protection.

No one is saved in ignorance.

In order for any creature to be saved from sin and death, they must come to know the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done for them.

This knowledge can come to them in mortality or afterwards in the spirit world, but it must happen before they receive salvation.

It is always better for the individual to come to this knowledge earlier rather than later, because it gives them more opportunities to exercise their faith and grow spiritually.

We all will die one day. It is the great equalizer. However, we all will leave this world at different levels of spiritual progression.

The knowledge of God and His Christ and experience we gain by using that knowledge will come with us to the next world and the more we possess the better off we will be.

We should be using this time to come to Christ, repent of our sins (which are slowing us down) and do good continually.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Prestor John said:
This idea that Adam and Eve did something wicked when they partook the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is very new, not agreed upon by the whole of Judeo-Christian religions and erroneous according to various books of scripture.
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Well... I'm not sure how new. At the minimum almost two thousand years.
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
KenS said:
Solution?
Click to expand...

Claiming a specific solution is problematic.

I believe in a spiritual evolution of 'good' from the human perspective through Progressive Revelation throughout the history of humanity possibly 300,000 years or more.
 
Jeremiah Ames

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Prestor John said:
Adam and Eve were selected from the choicest of God's children to be the Patriarch and Matriarch of the human family.

Neither Adam nor Eve ever betrayed God.

This idea that Adam and Eve did something wicked when they partook the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is very new, not agreed upon by the whole of Judeo-Christian religions and erroneous according to various books of scripture.

Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit had always been a crucial component of God's plan for His children because it caused them to enter into mortality, where their testing and eternal progression would continue.

We are all destined to become like God and spending time in mortality progresses us toward that goal by giving us experience with having a Knowledge of Good and Evil, just as God Himself said, "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Genesis 3:22) (Bold, italics and underline added)

Cain, on the other hand, openly rejected the greater counsel from God, hearkened to the voice of Satan by forming a covenant with him, murdered his brother and lied to God.

No. It is a false basis.

No, the exact opposite is true. It is by faith that we are saved. It is faith, not ignorance, that is our best protection.

No one is saved in ignorance.

In order for any creature to be saved from sin and death, they must come to know the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done for them.

This knowledge can come to them in mortality or afterwards in the spirit world, but it must happen before they receive salvation.

It is always better for the individual to come to this knowledge earlier rather than later, because it gives them more opportunities to exercise their faith and grow spiritually.

We all will die one day. It is the great equalizer. However, we all will leave this world at different levels of spiritual progression.

The knowledge of God and His Christ and experience we gain by using that knowledge will come with us to the next world and the more we possess the better off we will be.

We should be using this time to come to Christ, repent of our sins (which are slowing us down) and do good continually.
Click to expand...

I cannot disagree with the things you say here.
But my questioning mind does find some things that seem a bit off to me.
 
Jeremiah Ames

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Vinayaka said:
Why not? For me it's because heaven doesn't exist. Swedenborg just assumes it does. Huge assumption.
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Ah. So you haven’t read any Swedenborg. He does not assume it, per his own words. If you don’t believe his words, then so be it. You won’t believe mine either when I tell you I have been to heaven and hell. I have determined from those experiences that I prefer heaven. I’ve been told that others actually prefer hell, but I can’t see how that can be. Except that we’re all different. It is a strange world filled with strange people.
 
Vinayaka

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Gerry said:
Ah. So you haven’t read any Swedenborg. He does not assume it, per his own words. If you don’t believe his words, then so be it. You won’t believe mine either when I tell you I have been to heaven and hell. I have determined from those experiences that I prefer heaven. I’ve been told that others actually prefer hell, but I can’t see how that can be. Except that we’re all different. It is a strange world filled with strange people.
Click to expand...

Belief is just belief. I believe you are free to believe whatever you wish.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
a
shunyadragon said:
Claiming a specific solution is problematic.

I believe in a spiritual evolution of 'good' from the human perspective through Progressive Revelation throughout the history of humanity possibly 300,000 years or more.
Click to expand...

OK... I think Jesus was the ultimate Revelation for humanity, even the image of God. But to each his own. IMV, it would still be "is there further" for man even after 3,000,000 years because we still have the problem of men being the judge.
 
MJFlores

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Gerry said:
I hope you read it all, to the last part “everything good comes from him”
Click to expand...


Wow that was lengthy

Your original post was:

“The nature of heaven is to provide a place there for all who lead good lives, no matter what their religion may be.”
― Emanuel Swedenborg - and you beg the question why no?

Assuming Mr. Swedenborg is correct that people will go to heaven regardless what their religion they may have.
What do you think was the message Jesus Christ spoke about?

upload_2019-5-25_9-47-23.jpeg


Did Mr Swedenborg just countered Jesus like "You don't need Jesus, you can have Mohammad, you can have Vishnu, you can have Buddha, you can have Satan for your religion as long as you live good lives. Religion isn't important in reaching heaven."

images


Every religion leads to heaven as long as people live good lives?
What did Jesus said and should we disregard these?
Mr. Emanuel Swedenborg must know something Jesus doesn't?
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
KenS said:
a


OK... I think Jesus was the ultimate Revelation for humanity, even the image of God. But to each his own. IMV, it would still be "is there further" for man even after 3,000,000 years because we still have the problem of men being the judge.
Click to expand...

This has been obvious sense I have corresponded on this site, and of course we disagree.
Regardless of what you believe the fallible human remains the problem.
 
Vinayaka

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Firemorphic said:
So do you believe it's an endless Samsara without any Moksha? :confused:
Click to expand...
No, but moksha isn't heaven. Moksha is just release from the samsara cycle. No explanation needed or given beyond that. Then, in time, it's a total merger, water to water.
 
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