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John 10:18 Jesus explains the crucifixion & resurrection

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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
John 10:15-18

Often the crucifixion concept is explained in a religious manner, as a sacrifice replacement for a temple sacrifice.
Is that what it seems like, the way Jesus describes it?

Not to me, it doesn't.
 
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sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
Disciple of Jesus said:
John 10:15-18

Often the crucifixion concept is explained in a religious manner, as a sacrifice replacement for a temple sacrifice.
Is that what it seems like, the way Jesus describes it?

Not to me, it doesn't.
Click to expand...

John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.
 
74x12

74x12

Well-Known Member
Disciple of Jesus said:
John 10:15-18

Often the crucifixion concept is explained in a religious manner, as a sacrifice replacement for a temple sacrifice.
Is that what it seems like, the way Jesus describes it?

Not to me, it doesn't.
Click to expand...
Jesus here is presenting one portrait of the crucifixion; but the scriptures present many portraits of the same event. Or in other words they use different perspectives. No one perspective is more true than another. They are all true and correct. So just because here Jesus likens it to a Shepherd dying to save His sheep, yet that doesn't mean the other portrait of a Lamb being slaughtered for atonement is not just as true.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
74x12 said:
Jesus here is presenting one portrait of the crucifixion; but the scriptures present many portraits of the same event. Or in other words they use different perspectives. No one perspective is more true than another. They are all true and correct. So just because here Jesus likens it to a Shepherd dying to save His sheep, yet that doesn't mean the other portrait of a Lamb being slaughtered for atonement is not just as true.
Click to expand...

Blood sacrifice for redemption of sin is a pretty tough belief to accept.
 
74x12

74x12

Well-Known Member
sooda said:
Blood sacrifice for redemption of sin is a pretty tough belief to accept.
Click to expand...
Not tougher for anyone than Jesus Himself.

It's foreshadowed since Genesis 1. Jesus is the Word of Life as John says 1st John chapter 1.

In Genesis, the Spirit of God moves over the darkened water in silence but when He finally speaks it is "Let there be Light"
So As long as Jesus was alive the Word of Life was silent. But, when His body was broken the silence was broken. The Word of Life is the resurrection from the dead. Jesus must die and His blood poured out. As the Life is in the blood. So the Word of Life is in Jesus' blood.

The darkness in Genesis 1:2 is the "shadow of death" that covers all the people. (Isaiah 9:2) In other words it is The sentence of death that covers us all. (genesis 2:17) The waters are the people themselves. (isaiah 17:12, Revelations 17:15) The Light of Genesis 1:3 is Jesus Christ.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
John 10:17
Has been "interpreted". Obviously, because we do interpret inferences to persons, and such, interpretation of meaning, [different languages, is somewhat necessary, since the belief, or more than one belief, is connected to the text. By my estimation, there are three ways of reading this

• Jesus is referring to Himself, as the father, here, [our father

• Jesus is saying that He is able to do this, because His father loves Him

• The way it has been interpreted, in other words, his father loves Him, because He does this, [the crucifixion, and resurrection.

Now, considering the other verses, and the context of them, Jesus is calling Himself a Shepherd, [that is like, He is saying He is our father, and, the fact that Jesus does this, of His own accord, now, which interpretation, makes the most sense, here.
 
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D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
sooda said:
Isn't Jesus the Lamb of God?
Click to expand...
That's pretty vague. Trinitarians call Jesus G- d, for example, Sabellians or Modalists wouldn't have that sort of idea, for Jesus, either, as a replacement temple sacrifice.
sooda said:
Isn't Jesus the Lamb of God?
Click to expand...

John 1:29
Someone calling Jesus, the "lamb of G-d'.

So, does this mean, that Jesus as god, offers Himself as the lamb of god.

Does this mean, that Jesus is being likened to a lamb, by His mannerisms.

In other words, there is actually nothing here, that infers that Jesus is a temple sacrifice, at all.
 
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sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
Disciple of Jesus said:
That's pretty vague. Trinitarians call Jesus G- d, for example, Sabellians or Modalists wouldn't have that sort of idea, for Jesus, either, as a replacement temple sacrifice. Sounds pagan.


John 1:29
Someone calling Jesus, the "lamb of G-d'.

So, does this mean, that Jesus as god, offers Himself as the lamb of god.

Does this mean, that Jesus is being likened to a lamb, by His mannerisms.

In other words, there is actually nothing here, that infers that Jesus is a temple sacrifice, at all.
Click to expand...

I think Lamb indicates innocent blood for the expiation of sin. I have issues about this.. so don't mind me. I find it repulsive.. and I wouldn't say so except on an anonymous forum. I think about Azzazel.. ICK.

And then I wonder about the message of the story about Abraham and Isaac.. It seems to me that the message was NO MORE HUMAN SACRIFICE.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
Disciple of Jesus said:
A literalism of a temple sacrifice, considering the context, John 10:18, and the most sensible way of interpreting John 10:17,
Might be the end, to the temple sacrifices, in the religion of Jesus, or, the religion associated with Jesus. This could be, however this isn't related to religion outside this context, so, the strange parallel that some draw between the temple priests, anti-Jesus, and this sort of Spiritual sacrifice, by Jesus, makes no sense.
Click to expand...

I'm not following you, but its late and I'm pooped. Let's take this up tomorrow. Thanks.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Disciple of Jesus said:
That's pretty vague. Trinitarians call Jesus G- d, for example, Sabellians or Modalists wouldn't have that sort of idea, for Jesus, either, as a replacement temple sacrifice.


John 1:29
Someone calling Jesus, the "lamb of G-d'.

So, does this mean, that Jesus as god, offers Himself as the lamb of god.

Does this mean, that Jesus is being likened to a lamb, by His mannerisms.

In other words, there is actually nothing here, that infers that Jesus is a temple sacrifice, at all.
Click to expand...
By the time John was written temple Judaism was a thing of the past. John represents a high Christology and a high soteriology. My opinion is that John is not talking about a temple sacrifice or substitutionary atonement.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
sooda said:
Wasn't the Gospel of John written before the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD?
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The writing style is different, and beyond that, other things can be considered. When it was written isn't a particular consideration of mine, regarding this.
 
T

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
sooda said:
John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.
Click to expand...

But were they the words of the man Jesus, or the words of our Lord God and savior, 'The Son of Man" (The Most High in the creation) who filled the man Jesus with his spirit/words, who said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18-19; "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and I will put 'MY WORDS' in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear 'MY WORDS,' which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.
 
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