Does God manufacture people to Hell?

Buttercup · Sep 27, 2006

Victor said:
No, but I would want him "seperate" from me. The lake of fire is created by his own deep psychological state.

But, you're skirting the issue I think my friend, Victor.

And I'd rather keep the analogy to the child parent relationship because this is closer to what we have been taught in Christianity.

Victor, you're the boss......your daughter decides she doesn't love you. Do you send her to eternal hell because she doesn't love you?

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

Do you still care about him?

With all I can muster.

Real Sorceror said:
Does he believe in God? Does he know God exists and cares about him? Would he really choose eternal torture?

I guess you can say he's agnostic. It is clear to me that he would chose his own desires above that of God.

cardero · Sep 27, 2006

Buttercup said:
I'm not sure what you're implying, Pat. Care to elaborate?

Though I agree with Victor's opening post and it is what I have come to K(NOW) about GOD, it is the scriptures that do not agree with us. I was wondering if it was possible for us to have it both ways in light of this scriptural information.

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

Buttercup said:
But, you're skirting the issue I think my friend, Victor.

And I'd rather keep the analogy to the child parent relationship because this is closer to what we have been taught in Christianity.

Victor, you're the boss......your daughter decides she doesn't love you. Do you send her to eternal hell because she doesn't love you?

No offense Buttercup, but you are making me play under your terms with your child analogy. That's ok though, I'll play. Even though I did state that ALL relationships eventually become conditional, no?

To answer your question, no I would not. More then likely she wouldn't want to be around me if she didn't love me.

lamplighter · Sep 27, 2006

The whole concept of going to hell for not believing in the judeo-christian god is faulty, because this would have had to be known by every human across the globe since the begining of our species to be valid rule to begin with. Also I've never seen any scripture that we have to do such, just that the non believers will be judged. Now viewing this from a logical light, this means non believers will be sent to hell, pergatory, or heaven based on there actions.

Real Sorceror · Sep 27, 2006

Victor said:
With all I can muster.

Will you miss him 80 thousand years in the future? He'd still be in Hell if its eternal.

I guess

you can say he's agnostic. It is clear to me that he would chose his own desires above that of God.

You said he has lived a sinful life filled with poor choices, but would you ever describe him as "evil" or "wicked"?

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

cardero said:
Though I agree with Victor's opening post and it is what I have come to K(NOW) about GOD, it is the scriptures that do not agree with us. I was wondering if it was possible for us to have it both ways in light of this scriptural information.

I'm not sure how you interpreted God interfering with people's individual will. I do not deny he interferes with situations and events, but He does not intervene with free will.

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

Real Sorceror said:
You said he has lived a sinful life filled with poor choices, but would you ever describe him as "evil" or "wicked"?

Let's just say he's not someone you'd want your daughter to date.

Buttercup · Sep 27, 2006

Victor said:
No offense Buttercup, but you are making me play under your terms with your child analogy. That's ok though, I'll play. Even though I did state that ALL relationships eventually become conditional, no?

We can play under your terms....doesn't matter to me. I used the parent/child analogy because that's the closest relationship of love we have on earth that compares to our relationship with God in love. We are taught that God is our Father and he loves us unconditionally.

To answer your question, no I would not.

You would not send her to a pit because you love her, no matter what. This is love, Victor. Unconditional love. No matter what you daughter does in her life.....you would never, ever send her to eternal torment.

My thinking is that God would never do that to us either.

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

Buttercup said:
We can play under your terms....doesn't matter to me. I used the parent/child analogy because that's the closest relationship of love that we have on earth that compares with our relationship with God in love. We are taught that God is our Father and he loves us unconditionally.

I love my wife unconditionally. Meaning there is nothing she needs to do for me to love her. But our relationship is certainly conditional. I hope you see the difference.

Buttercup said:
You would not send her to a pit because you love her, no matter what. This is love, Victor. Unconditional love. No matter what you daughter does in her life.....you would never, ever send her to eternal torment.

My thinking is that God would never do that to us either.

What do you think He would do? Have us all go to heaven?

cardero · Sep 27, 2006

I have a feeling we may have a disagreement of what exactly free will entails but if we take each scripture and if I was to substitute myself for each scripture I think I may explain my point.

Genesis 22:2
2 And he went on to say: Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and make a trip to the land of Mo·ri´ah and there offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall designate to you.

Now if Issac was my son and I did not feel like offering him up to God would God be respectful of my decision?

Genesis 19:23-26
23 The sun had gone forth over the land when Lot arrived at Zo´ar. 24 Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens, upon Sod´om and upon Go·mor´rah. 25 So he went ahead overthrowing these cities, even the entire District and all the inhabitants of the cities and the plants of the ground. 26 And his wife began to look around from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

If I had wanted to live the lifestyle of the people of Sodom and Gomorah would this be acceptable or detestable to God? How far could I have exercise my free will in the days of Sodom and Gomorah? How far could I exercise this decision today in this lifetime and what consequences would be awaiting me when I died?

Ex22.20:
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

What if I want to make sacrifices to other gods? Though there is a freedom to express religion in the United States how does this sit with God?

Numbers 11:1
1 Now the people became as men having something evil to complain about in the ears of Jehovah. When Jehovah got to hear it, then his anger grew hot, and a fire of Jehovah began to blaze against them and to consume some in the extremity of the camp.

What if I want to feel angry about Jehovah? What if I did not agree with the way Jehovah was handling things? Would I be able to freely express my feelings and my will or would this be something Jehovah would not be tolerant of?

Joshua 1:17
17 As we listened to Moses in everything, so we shall listen to you. Only may Jehovah your God prove to be with you just as he proved to be with Moses. 18 Any man that behaves rebelliously against your order and does not listen to your words in all that you may command him will be put to death. Only be courageous and strong.

Does this scripture leave any room for free will or does it say that I will positively die if you do not follow Gods chosen prophet?

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

cardero said:
I have a feeling we may have a disagreement of what exactly free will entails but if we take each scripture and if I was to substitute myself for each scripture I think I may explain my point.

That certainly could be part of the problem.

cardero said:
Genesis 22:2
2 And he went on to say: Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and make a trip to the land of Mo·ri´ah and there offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall designate to you.

Now if Issac was my son and I did not feel like offering him up to God would God be respectful of my decision?

Probably not, but how exactly does that take your right to turn it down?

cardero said:
Genesis 19:23-26
23 The sun had gone forth over the land when Lot arrived at Zo´ar. 24 Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens, upon Sod´om and upon Go·mor´rah. 25 So he went ahead overthrowing these cities, even the entire District and all the inhabitants of the cities and the plants of the ground. 26 And his wife began to look around from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

If I had wanted to live the lifestyle of the people of Sodom and Gomorah would this be acceptable or detestable to God? How far could I have exercise my free will in the days of Sodom and Gomorah? How far could I exercise this decision today in this lifetime and what consequences would be awaiting me when I died?

As far as you wanted to. Obviously with consequences.

cardero said:
Ex22.20:
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

What if I want to make sacrifices to other gods? Though there is a freedom to express religion in the United States how does this sit with God?

I'm totally not understanding why opposing God's will takes away your will.

cardero said:
Numbers 11:1
1 Now the people became as men having something evil to complain about in the ears of Jehovah. When Jehovah got to hear it, then his anger grew hot, and a fire of Jehovah began to blaze against them and to consume some in the extremity of the camp.

What if I want to feel angry about Jehovah? What if I did not agree with the way Jehovah was handling things? Would I be able to freely express my feelings and my will or would this be something Jehovah would not be tolerant of?

Ditto..

cardero said:
Joshua 1:17
17 As we listened to Moses in everything, so we shall listen to you. Only may Jehovah your God prove to be with you just as he proved to be with Moses. 18 Any man that behaves rebelliously against your order and does not listen to your words in all that you may command him will be put to death. Only be courageous and strong.

Does this scripture leave any room for free will or does it say that I will positively die if you do not follow Gods chosen prophet?

There is always room. The fact that you can ALWAYS oppose God's will shows that free will is there.

Buttercup · Sep 27, 2006

Victor said:
I love my wife unconditionally. Meaning there is nothing she needs to do for me to love her. But our relationship is certainly conditional. I hope you see the difference.

I do see the difference....but that is not unconditional love. Unconditional love has no conditions attached. It is free, no matter what. You dont' love your wife like that....only your children come close.

The way you describe God is of having conditional love.

What do you think He would do? Have us all go to heaven?

Hell yeah!

Hacker · Sep 27, 2006

Victor said:
What do you think He would do? Have us all go to heaven?

Not have us ALL go to heaven for eternity maybe for a while before the next incarnation, our loving God gives us chances, through rebirth...at least that's what I believe. Isn't that fair enough?

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

Buttercup said:
I do see the difference....but that is not unconditional love. Unconditional love has no conditions attached. It is free, no matter what. You dont' love your wife like that....only your children come close.

The way you describe God is of having conditional love.

You really like the child analogy don't you?

If we all stayed as children and never had the potential to grow I'd be more prone to agreeing with you. Truth be told, we do grow, we do have conditions for EVERYBODY.

Tell me, don't you expect your husband to treat you with respect, be faithful, be honest, etc.? Answer yes to any of those and you have yourself a conditional relationship....

Buttercup said:
Hell yeah!

What a heaven that must be...:cover:

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

tlcmel said:
Not have us ALL go to heaven, our loving God gives us chances, through rebirth...at least that's what I believe. Isn't that fair enough?

Yup, I have rebirths almost everyday...

Hacker · Sep 27, 2006

Victor said:
Yup, I have rebirths almost everyday...

Haha!

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

Thank you everyone for being civil and kind even if we disagree...:group:

Buttercup · Sep 27, 2006

Victor said:
You really like the child analogy don't you?

Yep, 'cuz it's the closest we have on earth to the God/Human love relationship.

If we all stayed as children and never had the potential to grow I'd be more prone to agreeing with you. Truth be told, we do grow, we do have conditions for EVERYBODY.

Yes, but we will never have the intellect of God. Nor do we ever have personal, physical manifestations of God. Our children do grow and learn and suffer consequences of their actions. How can we suffer the consequences of Hell when all that we have as proof of God is a book? Does that make sense?

Tell me, don't you expect your husband to treat you with respect, be faithful, be honest, etc.? Answer yes to any of those and you have yourself a conditional relationship....

Yes and I've never said a marriage relationship IS NOT conditional. It is. Only a child/parent relationship comes close to unconditional love.....the kind of love that God supposedly has for us. Unconditional love does not condemn.

You are saying that God's love is conditional right?

Buttercup · Sep 27, 2006

Victor said:
Thank you everyone for being civil and kind even if we disagree...:group:

We're not done are we?

Does God manufacture people to Hell?

Veteran Member

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

Citizen Mod

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

Almighty Tallest

Pirate Hunter

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

Veteran Member

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

Citizen Mod

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

Well-Known Member

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

Veteran Member

Veteran Member