Does God manufacture people to Hell?

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

Taken from post# 59:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39057&page=6

Robtex said:
Actually if you don't mind going a little deeper consider this. There are 5 billion people on the planet right now. 1/3 are Christian and 2/3 are other which is about 3.4 billion in rough numbers that are going to burn. Now the people's population on earth is increasing by a large rate century by century. This means, that if the Christian paradigm is true, and remember God as proposed by Christianty is omnipresent, so he knows the outcome before it happens, God is manufacturing soles specifically to burn in hell.

If x= amount of soles created in all eternity
y= souls going to heaven
z= souls going to hell than,

y= x- z and Z are the surplus he created just for grins that he thought it would be permissible to burn knowning the outcome before he created them.

What this means is he is in constant creation of new souls throwing out the "bad ones" at a rate of 2/3 and increasing producation as he goes along (hence the propostion of pro-creation sex only and birth control as a sin).

Do you believe God creates people to go to Hell?

I do not. I believe God's omniscience respects free will. In essense, God considers every single possibility a person can chose and brings about the greater good for that situation. God only see's the possibilities, but cannot interfere with your free will.

Thoughts?

Toblerone2 · Sep 27, 2006

The concept of Hell is obsolete. We know that the core of the earth is composed mostly of molten iron and other metals. There's no-one "down there". The author of the concept of Hell had no idea of this.....the most we hear of a "place" for Hell is in the old testament as being "a low pit where they threw all the trash." (Sheol or somesuch).

I think this is why most Christians now think of hell as either our life here on earth, or as being "apart from God" in some theoretical way.

Aren't you really asking why Christians can't accept the fact that 2/3 of the world disagrees with them? At least it's not like the Muslim commandment to kill every one who doesnt think as you do. (that should spark a comment or 3..)

MaddLlama · Sep 27, 2006

I think where the problem comes in is the "all-knowingness" of God. The issue seems to be that if God knows a person is going to make a choice in the future to do something that will cause him to go to hell, by not interfering does that mean that God wanted that person to go to hell.

I don't actually have an answer, just making a observation.

Toblerone2 · Sep 27, 2006

Well, the free will argument would mean that God didnt really care whether you chose to go to hell or not, whether you accepted him or not, becuase its up to you to decide your own fate. Which, if you think about it, means that you really didnt need to pray to God to interfere in your life in the first place, doesnt it?

I don't see how you can have a personal relationship with God, and also claim that he has given us free will as to our behavior or beliefs. Seems contradictory to me.

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

Toblerone2 said:
The concept of Hell is obsolete. We know that the core of the earth is composed mostly of molten iron and other metals. There's no-one "down there".

This just made me chuckle...

Toblerone2 said:
The author of the concept of Hell had no idea of this.....the most we hear of a "place" for Hell is in the old testament as being "a low pit where they threw all the trash." (Sheol or somesuch).

I think the word you were looking for was Gehenna. That's actually borrowed from the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, "ge-hin-nom," the valley of hin-nom, which was where King Manasus sacrificed thousands of Israelite children to Molek, a demon god. After that nobody wanted to live in such defiled land, so it became the garbage dump, with fires continually burning. Nobody wanted to get near it because of defilement. It was a haunt of demons.

Toblerone2 said:
I think this is why most Christians now think of hell as either our life here on earth, or as being "apart from God" in some theoretical way.

Such abstract places as Hell are bound to have developments.

Toblerone2 said:
Aren't you really asking why Christians can't accept the fact that 2/3 of the world disagrees with them? At least it's not like the Muslim commandment to kill every one who doesnt think as you do. (that should spark a comment or 3..)

You lost me here...

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

MaddLlama said:
I think where the problem comes in is the "all-knowingness" of God. The issue seems to be that if God knows a person is going to make a choice in the future to do something that will cause him to go to hell, by not interfering does that mean that God wanted that person to go to hell.

I don't actually have an answer, just making a observation.

Wouldn't that mean that God is simply respecting free will, even if that means it's heading the wrong direction?

Real Sorceror · Sep 27, 2006

Heres how I see things: (Remember, I'm a blasephemer)
1) God doesn't know the future *heresy*
2) Not believing in God or being ignorant of God won't earn you a ticket to Hades *shocker*
3) Hell is not on fire. Its not meant as a cosmic torture arena. Such a thing would be evil and without purpose. *noway*

Buttercup · Sep 27, 2006

Victor said:
I do not. I believe God's omniscience respects free will.
Thoughts?

If God respects free will truly, then he would allow us to chose his way or not with no consequences. To offer a prize and then say...."Take this prize or you will be thrown into a pit if you turn it down", wouldn't you say, "That's not much of a prize...it's extortion.". I would.

Victor....God is love right? Above all else we can say God is love.

The greatest example of free, unconditional love that most humans can fathom is the love a parent has for their children. Even love for a partner doesn't come close because it has conditions attached. I would without question die for one of my kids if I had to. And I'm sure you feel the same.

You have three kids, two boys and one girl. I have four kids....three boys and one girl. Can you ever in your wildest dreams imagine saying to your kids, "Love me and follow me or I will throw you in a pit forever and for all eternity".

Would you say that to them?

Hacker · Sep 27, 2006

The only thing I could say is or ask is, Would you send any of your children for disobeying given the fact that they have free will? Wouldn't you punish them in a more logical manner, so that they actually can LEARN from it? ETERNAL punishment is not a very good concept of punishment, how do you learn from it! Yes we have free will, but we are born sinners and in a world with different religions.

Real Sorceror · Sep 27, 2006

tlcmel said:
The only thing I could say is or ask is, Would you send any of your children for disobeying given the fact that they have free will? Wouldn't you punish them in a more logical manner, so that they actually can LEARN from it? ETERNAL punishment is not a very good concept of punishment, how do you learn from it! Yes we have free will, but we are born sinners and in a world with different religions.

Frubals!: hamster :
Hell should have a purpose. Eternal torment is meaningless(among other things). People don't seem to realize just how long eternity actually is. Its forever!
Isn't God good, loving, forgiving, and holy? How can He be these things when His peeps are burning forever?

Hacker · Sep 27, 2006

Ha, I didn't even read your post and I used the same analogy Buttercup...would you EVER throw your OWN child in a firey pit for ETERNITY! I can't believe people actually believe this.

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

Buttercup said:
If God respects free will truly, then he would allow us to chose his way or not with no consequences.

But Buttercup this is true where there is a God or not. Consequences are real, choices are real. How is this any different?

Buttercup said:
To offer a prize and then say...."Take this prize or you will be thrown into a pit if you turn it down", wouldn't you say, "That's not much of a prize...it's extortion.". I would.

A relationship with God is not much of a prize?
It is to me. The alternative is completely one's doing. As I always tell my confirmation students that it's rather difficult to get to Hell.

Buttercup said:
Victor....God is love right? Above all else we can say God is love.

Certainly. And Justice is part of that Love, is it not?

Buttercup said:
The greatest example of free, unconditional love that most humans can fathom is the love a parent has for their children. Even love for a partner doesn't come close because it has conditions attached. I would without question die for one of my kids if I had to. And I'm sure you feel the same.

Absolutely.

Buttercup said:
You have three kids, two boys and one girl. I have four kids....three boys and one girl. Can you ever in your wildest dreams imagine saying to your kids, "Love me and follow me or I will throw you in a pit forever and for all eternity".

Would you say that to them?

I would say that all relationships eventually become conditional. Even with my kids. The closest I can come to at the moment is my younger brother who I have cried for and have done nothing but be there for him. But because of choices he has made in his life it is difficult to have him around my kids.

He has chosen the lake of fire himself. Should I get blamed for it? If not, how is that any different?

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

tlcmel said:
The only thing I could say is or ask is, Would you send any of your children for disobeying given the fact that they have free will? Wouldn't you punish them in a more logical manner, so that they actually can LEARN from it? ETERNAL punishment is not a very good concept of punishment, how do you learn from it! Yes we have free will, but we are born sinners and in a world with different religions.

I answered this question with my post to Buttercup.

Buttercup · Sep 27, 2006

Victor said:
I would say that all relationships eventually become conditional. Even with my kids. The closest I can come to at the moment is my younger brother who I have cried for and have done nothing but be there for him. But because of choices he has made in his life it is difficult to have him around my kids.

He has chosen the lake of fire himself. Should I get blamed for it? If not, how is that any different?

Do you still love your brother? Would you throw him in a lake of fire for not loving you in return?

Hacker · Sep 27, 2006

Let me ask you somthing Victor, do you think God is love?

Hacker · Sep 27, 2006

Victor said:
I answered this question with my post to Buttercup.

I think her and I are posting at the same time, LOL!

cardero · Sep 27, 2006

Victor said:
I do not. I believe God's omniscience respects free will. In essense, God considers every single possibility a person can chose and brings about the greater good for that situation. God only see's the possibilities, but cannot interfere with your free will.

Thoughts?

Scriptures

Genesis 22:2
2 And he went on to say: Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and make a trip to the land of Mo·ri´ah and there offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall designate to you.

Genesis 19:23-26
23 The sun had gone forth over the land when Lot arrived at Zo´ar. 24 Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens, upon Sod´om and upon Go·mor´rah. 25 So he went ahead overthrowing these cities, even the entire District and all the inhabitants of the cities and the plants of the ground. 26 And his wife began to look around from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Genesis 38:7
7 But Er, Judahs firstborn, proved to be bad in the eyes of Jehovah; hence Jehovah put him to death.

Genesis 38:24
24 However, about three months later it happened that it was told to Judah: Ta´mar your daughter-in-law has played the harlot, and here she is also pregnant by her harlotry. At that Judah said: BRING her out and let her be burned.

Exodus 4:24-26
24 Now it came about on the road at the lodging place that Jehovah got to meet him and kept looking for a way to put him to death. 25 Finally Zip·po´rah took a flint and cut off her sons foreskin and caused it to touch his feet and said: It is because you are a bridegroom of blood to me. 26 Consequently he let go of him. At that time she said: A bridegroom of blood, because of the circumcision.

Exodus 12:29
29 And it came about that at midnight Jehovah struck every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Phar´aoh sitting on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the prison hole, and every firstborn of beast.

Ex22.20:
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Numbers 11:1
1 Now the people became as men having something evil to complain about in the ears of Jehovah. When Jehovah got to hear it, then his anger grew hot, and a fire of Jehovah began to blaze against them and to consume some in the extremity of the camp.

Joshua 1:17
17 As we listened to Moses in everything, so we shall listen to you. Only may Jehovah your God prove to be with you just as he proved to be with Moses. 18 Any man that behaves rebelliously against your order and does not listen to your words in all that you may command him will be put to death. Only be courageous and strong.

From the scriptures it seems that God will interfere with our free will and is not very tolerant or respective towards our decisions.

Real Sorceror · Sep 27, 2006

I would say that all relationships eventually become conditional. Even with my kids. The closest I can come to at the moment is my younger brother who I have cried for and have done nothing but be there for him. But because of choices he has made in his life it is difficult to have him around my kids.

Do you still care about him?

He has chosen the lake of fire himself. Should I get blamed for it? If not, how is that any different?

Does he believe in God? Does he know God exists and cares about him? Would he really choose eternal torture?

Buttercup · Sep 27, 2006

I'm not sure what you're implying, Pat. Care to elaborate?

Quiddity · Sep 27, 2006

Buttercup said:
Do you still love your brother? Would you throw him in a lake of fire for not loving you in return?

No, but I would want him "seperate" from me. The lake of fire is created by his own deep psychological state.

Does God manufacture people to Hell?

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