Baha'is and a new form of discrimination?

loverofhumanity said:

The letter states it was a request not by the Baha’is but others named as the family of older covenant breakers.

It has nothing to do with the oneness of humanity but was a formal request to have the remains removed. Bahais would not remove it otherwise and 67 years is proof they respected that.

The fact it was left for 67 years is proof that it was only removed upon request.

I fail to see the connection to the oneness of mankind because

1. Baha’is did not initiate the removal, others did. We left it there for 67 years.

2. He was a Covenant breaker which is a traitor. Having a traitor buried near Baha’u’llah is not appropriate but nevertheless no effort was made to remove the remains until a formal request was made by others.

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Sorry but I find that hard to believe. It's not like that was the first time Baha'is purified their holy places from these humans that they call contamination. They also forced them out of their houses by the help of the Israeli government and even though the contaminants went to an appeal court their lands were still confiscated:

Only a very sick person with a very very sick mind calls their fellow human beings CONTAMINATION and then brags about the oneness of humanity.

Marcion said:

And if there is nothing lacking in the Bahai faith, why do you need to learn anything from other faiths?

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Why say anything at all about another person's faith? Just go with ... 'you do your thing, and I'll do my thing' and leave it at that. Then everyone should be happy.
But they're not. For some faiths (the proselytiing ones) it is an essential part of their faith to comment or interfere with another person's faith. Most of us are totally fine with Baha'i if they kept to themselves. It's only when they start telling us (usually in error) about how much they know about our faith that we get disgruntled.

Vinayaka said:

Why say anything at all about another person's faith? Just go with ... 'you do your thing, and I'll do my thing' and leave it at that. Then everyone should be happy.
But they're not. For some faiths (the proselytiing ones) it is an essential part of their faith to comment or interfere with another person's faith. Most of us are totally fine with Baha'i if they kept to themselves. It's only when they start telling us (usually in error) about how much they know about our faith that we get disgruntled.

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It is the way that it is done.
If you create a new faith like Bahaullah did, then there is nothing wrong in combining the best aspects of other faiths into the new faith and add some new things which were lacking.

But after that has been done, there is no need to learn anything more from older ideologies or indeed to comment on them. It would seem inappropriate to do so also since the members of those faiths hold them dear and have no need nor any use for your advice or comments.

The question of course is how well the best aspects of the older faiths have been absorbed into the new faith. That is a matter of personal opinion.

spirit_of_dawn said:

Sorry but I find that hard to believe. It's not like that was the first time Baha'is purified their holy places from these humans that they call contamination. They also forced them out of their houses by the help of the Israeli government and even though the contaminants went to an appeal court their lands were still confiscated:

“Purification of Ḥaram-i-Aqdas

Announce to Hands and all National Assemblies that following the loss of the appeal to the Supreme Court, the Government expropriation order has been implemented, resulting in the complete evacuation of the remnant of Covenant-breakers and the transfer of all their belongings from the precincts of the Most Holy Shrine, and the purification, after six long decades, of the Ḥaram-i-Aqdas from every trace of their contamination. Measures under way to effect transfer of title deeds of the evacuated property to the triumphant Bahá’í community.”(Shoghi Effendi, Messages to the Bahá’í World: 1950–1957, p. 124)Bahá'í Reference Library - Messages to the Bahá’í World: 1950–1957, Page 124
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Only a very sick person with a very very sick mind calls their fellow human beings CONTAMINATION and then brags about the oneness of humanity.

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This is a legal matter where the law was carried out. It has nothing to do with the oneness of mankind but justice. The Holy Shrines and places are the property of the Bahai Faith not the relatives or descendants of Baha’u’llah. That was clear in the Will of Baha’u’llah. The properties and keys of the shrines were rightfully returned to the officially designated authority in the Will of Abdu’l-Baha which was Shoghi Effendi.

A covenant breaker is a person who pretends to be a believer while at the same time either secretly or openly trying to destroy the Faith from within. They are seen as contaminated precisely because they are traitors and akin to criminals intent upon destroying anything and everything that is pure and good for personal gain.

Unless they change their ways or until they are sincere again they are not granted any Bahai rights but of course if they do change they are welcomed back but our Faith is one worldwide community united because we stop covenant breakers. In other religions they allowed these people to split their religion into thousands of sects resulting in the eventual disappearance of the religion.

Where is Christianity or Islam today? Who speaks for these religions? Which sect is the right one? Covenant breakers have done this to all religions, destroyed their unity so no one can know where to find truth anymore.

You look at any of the major religions and you can’t see a single united one that speaks with one voice except the Baha’is because their unity was destroyed by covenant breakers from within.

The result is a confused world not knowing where to find truth and having to sift through tens of thousands of sects and still no guarantee of finding where the true religions are. This is the work of covenant breakers.

If they change their ways they are welcomed back in but we have the right to protect ourselves from those who would harm us trying to split us into thousands of sects.

When wolves are circling innocent lambs the shepherd is well within his rights to protect his sheep and the wolf here if shown kindness would destroy the entire flock.

Both the House of Justice and Shoghi Effendi have protected us from insidious covenant breakers who seek our demise from within and they are to be commended for being firm and just in this matter.

Covenant breakers are said to be contaminated because they are so intent on splitting the Faith into thousands of sects like all the other Faiths. Thankfully they have never succeeded but the door is always open if they change their ways.

Vinayaka said:

I try to go to satsangs with a mantra/affirmation in the back of my mind ... "Keep your mouth shut, keep your mouth shut," Sometimes it works, sometimes if doesn't. When it doesn't, I'm reminded of Twain's famous quote ... Better to say nothing and let people think you're a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. " Our (Hindu) teachings are more in vibrations than in words. Most certainly not in condescending words.

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Hi Vinayaka. Well said. That's what I love about Hindu teachings. They just feel good. Never condescending

I went many times to satsangs. Tried out everything: shut up, explain what they do is hurtful etc.etc. Totally useless I discovered. Spiritual arrogance, I read in Hindu scripture, is incurable almost. I tried for like 5 years. Now I know Hindu Scripture got it right.

About Twain. I feel it is okay to speak out what is on my heart if they disrespect me. But I was a fool. Donkey never hits a stone twice; I should give a proselytizer one warning only; even better it is to just walk off and never look back. (warning a proselytizer is useless, after countless experiences I now know they will never stop being disrespectful; and I am fed up with disrespectful people).

Vinayaka said:

I try to go to satsangs with a mantra/affirmation in the back of my mind ... "Keep your mouth shut, keep your mouth shut,"

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I tried to keep my mouth shut. Then I discovered "This is absurd, if they are such sick behaving people that I feel I have to shut up, I am a fool to go there in the first place". But still sometimes I like to go to a satsang, but this feeling gets stronger everytime. Sai Baba said "Real Satsang is union with God". And it's very true, when people can't even respect other beliefs it can't be called satsang. There is no "truth" in those places.

stvdv said:

I tried to keep my mouth shut. Then I discovered "This is absurd, if they are such sick behaving people that I feel I have to shut up, I am a fool to go there in the first place". But still sometimes I like to go to a satsang, but this feeling gets stronger everytime. Sai Baba said "Real Satsang is union with God". And it's very true, when people can't even respect other beliefs it can't be called satsang. There is no "truth" in those places.

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There are lots of Sai people here, I've never been to a satsang of theirs, and because of the intermixing of everyone at the Ganesha temple, I wouldn't. Rumours spread so fast in the Tamil gossip grapevine. But I've also learned it only takes a couple of people to spoil it for the rest. There was one Sai devotee here a few years back that couldn't keep quiet about the Sai is God stuff. Fortunately I know many who aren't like that at all so see the big picture. But when they're ALL like that, yes, it would be tough. Amongst yourselves, sure, but not during outreach.

stvdv said:

Here on RF I met some Bahai's who agreed that this spiritual arrogance is not what Bahaullah was teaching.

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spirit_of_dawn said:

Count the number of insults heaped unto non-Baha'is in the following statement and then ask yourself, if "this spiritual arrogance" isn't a Baha'i teaching:
"O friends! Black clouds have shrouded all this earth, and the darkness of hatred and malice, of cruelty and aggression and defilement is spreading far and wide. The people, one and all, live out their lives in a heedless stupor and the chief virtues of man are held to be his rapacity and his thirst for blood. Out of all the mass of humankind God hath chosen the friends, and He hath favoured them with His guidance and boundless grace. His purpose is this, that we, all of us, should strive with our whole hearts to offer ourselves up, guide others to His path, and train the souls of men—until these frenzied beasts change to gazelles in the meadows of oneness, and these wolves to lambs of God, and these brutish creatures to angelic hosts; till the fires of hatred are quenched, and the flame coming out of the sheltered vale of the Holy Shrine doth shed its splendours; till the foul odour of the tyrant’s dunghill is blown away, and yieldeth to the pure, sweet scents that stream from the rosebeds of faith and trust. On that day will the weak of intellect draw on the bounty of the divine, Universal Mind, and they whose life is but abomination will seek out these cleansing, holy breaths." (Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 272)

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I read a few Bahai Books. And saw some discrepancies. So I decided to only read the Book of Bahaullah himself. Your quote is from His son. Within 1 week after my Master died, other people misinterpreted His teachings already big time. Won't be different with Bahaullah, I am sure about that.

loverofhumanity said:

Are we wrong to befriend the Muslim, Hindu, Jew and Christian with love and fellowship?

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It is not wrong as long as you don't see their religion as inferior as Bahai IMO (or hope they finally will come to Bahai faith; last messenger best idea)

loverofhumanity said:

I never see a Baha’i teaching as superior to a Buddhist or Hindu or Christian teaching just beautiful in a different way. I love reading and meditating on the truths of all Faiths and whatever good things and examples people set as we are here to learn and grow and we never know everything.

There is no superior religion not Baha’i or any other religion. We are just normal people not special chosen ones or ‘saved’ but just your equal.(hopefully) And we have so much to learn from you and others so how can we dare say other religions are anything but truth?

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Thanks. Nice to read this. This is what I understood from Bahaullah after reading His Book.

Marcion said:

If another path or religion is not "superior" in knowledge, then what is it exactly that you want to learn from them?
Let me ask it in another way, do you think there is anything lacking in the Bahai faith that other paths or religions can supply you with?

And if there is nothing lacking in the Bahai faith, why do you need to learn anything from other faiths?

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Good question.

Interaction with other gives me a chance to "See Unity in Diversity" .. Stop seeing my religion as better/best. My teachings are sufficient though as are others'

stvdv said:

I read a few Bahai Books. And saw some discrepancies. So I decided to only read the Book of Bahaullah himself. Your quote is from His son. Within 1 week after my Master died, other people misinterpreted His teachings already big time. Won't be different with Bahaullah, I am sure about that.

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Interesting. I have never heard of the Book of Baha'ullah. Can you explain what book you are referring to?

spirit_of_dawn said:

Interesting. I have never heard of the Book of Baha'ullah. Can you explain what book you are referring to?

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What I meant is a book written by Himself and not by His son or others.
The Kitab-I-Iqan: The Book Of Certitude: Baha'u'llah

Has been more than 1 year ago I read a few parts of this book. But now you quoted some dubious texts of Bahai faith I will read again, keeping this in mind. Compared to the Koran I found this very respectful towards other religions, but maybe coincidentally I only read the good parts. I hope not.

Vinayaka said:

There was one Sai devotee here a few years back that couldn't keep quiet about the Sai is God stuff.

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I always wonder why people feel the need to "not keep quiet about Sai is God or Jesus is our Savior stuff"

In the Yoga Vasistha the reader was advised to only read one page a day, because the teaching is quite mind-blowing. Probably if people read too much at once our "system" can't handle it well and that's the reason we need to talk about it, as to feel senang again. Some people say that during sleep we process stuff we could not process in daytime, so maybe "talking about God" is also a kind of processing this "mind-blowing" stuff.

In Indian Scriptures I read it is good to keep spiritual experiences to yourself, at least for quite a while, so they have the chance/time to sink in. That made sense to me, so I made it a thing to not talk about most things for "1 year". But sometimes I could not control and blabbed out too much also.

Now after 30years I do not feel the urge to talk about it much anymore. If people ask it's nice to share, otherwise I rather keep silent to myself. And like you mentioned before "Better to say nothing and let people think you're a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt". Unless you want to learn, then it's a good opportunity to say something, so you give the other person the chance to prove you are a fool, and you can work on that.

Vinayaka said:

There was one Sai devotee here a few years back that couldn't keep quiet about the Sai is God stuff. Fortunately I know many who aren't like that at all so see the big picture. But when they're ALL like that, yes, it would be tough. Amongst yourselves, sure, but not during outreach.

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Just curious. What bothered you about this man talking about "Sai is God stuff".

If a Christian, Muslim, Boeddhist or atheist enthousiastically shares with me, this makes me happy. Enthousiastic people make me happy.

Less intrigued I am when they throw in "Mine is the best religion". Or what happened last sunday in a Baptist Church. A lady asked me "why did you not come for 1 year ... and I heard about a guru....". Then another lady who likes me jumped in to my rescue and said "Yes, yes he has a guru ... and he is very happy with his guru... but after some time he will also recognize that Jesus is the best way".

So I am happy if others share personal experiences. "Sai is God" talk easily changes into "He is the best" this is for me still acceptable (also if a Christian says this). For me the limit is when they imply "other Masters/Gurus/religions are inferior".

And I agree, it's a good practice "Amongst yourselves, sure, but not during outreach". Then at least we don't proselytize. And for some this line is difficult to understand or feel; so then even better to stick to this.

Vinayaka said:

There are lots of Sai people here, I've never been to a satsang of theirs, and because of the intermixing of everyone at the Ganesha temple, I wouldn't. Rumours spread so fast in the Tamil gossip grapevine. But I've also learned it only takes a couple of people to spoil it for the rest. There was one Sai devotee here a few years back that couldn't keep quiet about the Sai is God stuff. Fortunately I know many who aren't like that at all so see the big picture. But when they're ALL like that, yes, it would be tough. Amongst yourselves, sure, but not during outreach.

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I did go to one of their services once out of curiosity.
It felt really Hindu (like at ISKCON with the murti's and the rituals) and afterwards in the office of the caretaker of the temple we got to see some videos of the guru performing magic in India at gatherings there.

stvdv said:

Just curious. What bothered you about this man talking about "Sai is God stuff".

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It was his aggressive incessant nature, the my way is THE WAY for everyone. It got annoying. It's one thing to have a Guru, and be happy with that, but yet another to always be in your face about it. Most people are far more humble. That's about it, yeah. You couldn't have a 'I'm okay with my way too, you know' kind of discussion. But he wasn't that liked by other Sai people either.

stvdv said:

In the Yoga Vasistha the reader was advised to only read one page a day, because the teaching is quite mind-blowing. Probably if people read too much at once our "system" can't handle it well and that's the reason we need to talk about it, as to feel senang again.

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My sampradaya's recommended methodology is one lesson per day for 365 days, and that is the reason. More time to let it really sink in. After all, it's not an intellectual study, but a life-altering one. There is some really deep stuff in a lot of our scriptures, like the Yoga Sutras, or Tirumanthiram. Just reading it wouldn't do it any justice at all.

Marcion said:

I did go to one of their services once out of curiosity.
It felt really Hindu (like at ISKCON with the murti's and the rituals) and afterwards in the office of the caretaker of the temple we got to see some videos of the guru performing magic in India at gatherings there.

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Yes, despite the outer appearances of universalism, the Sai organisation is very Hindu, probably because most people there are Hindu. They do good social work.

Vinayaka said:

Yes, despite the outer appearances of universalism, the Sai organisation is very Hindu, probably because most people there are Hindu. They do good social work.

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Indeed, the social service projects got mentioned too.
The temple complexes in the video looked very Hindu in style.
It doesn't feel universalistic to me, nor does the style of the Bahai.
But I guess the level of universalism should not be judged on appearances (only).