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Why a Satan if God is all powerful?

P

Phillip

Member
Ok, Polythiests welcome, but so we can stay on subject, this thread is about the Judeo-Christian God and Lucifer. Again I repeat, I'd like input from anyone, just not so much about other religions. Thanks.

If God is all knowing, then when He created the angels He knew that Lucifer would betray him and go off and oppose him(fairly successfully). If also he is all powerful then at any point from before the creation on, he could have put a stop to it. In that context, you could assume that anything Lucifer has ever done and will do, is God's will. If then, Lucifer is evil and does evil things, evil things and benevolent things must both be God's will. At that point in the logic, why is there a Lucifer at all? God is all powerful, why not just do good and evil Himself? There's where I get to my point. I don't think there is a Satan. I think that God preserves the balance himself. I do believe in balance, if there was no evil in the world one would never know good.

Ok, your turn now. Thanks.
 
Djamila

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
Very, very interesting question.

The only answer I can come up with is that God is dumbing things down to a level at which we can possibly begin to comprehend. What God is, and what God does, is so abstract that this is the way God's workings are manifested in the human mind?
 
Halcyon

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
I imagine that the concept of a powerful Devil with its own will which was against that of God's originated via influence from dualistic religions, like ancient Zoroastrianism.

In absolute dualism we have two deities, one of good and an equal and opposing force of evil. This does away with the problem of evil posited in your OP as the all good God has nothing to do with the existance or actions of the all evil God.

Having the Satan/Lucifer character as a creation of God gone bad creates insolvable problems like the one you stated.
 
d.

d.

_______
Halcyon said:
Having the Satan/Lucifer character as a creation of God gone bad creates insolvable problems like the one you stated.
Click to expand...

i think the problem is unavoidable even before that - there can't be things an omnipotent god can't control, correct? so if we want a satan/lucifer character he has to be created by god somehow.

but then again, doesn't god work in mysterious ways? apparently, at least when one's reasoning encounters a difficult problem...;)
 
Halcyon

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
divine said:
i think the problem is unavoidable even before that - there can't be things an omnipotent god can't control, correct? so if we want a satan/lucifer character he has to be created by god somehow.

but then again, doesn't god work in mysterious ways? apparently, at least when one's reasoning encounters a difficult problem...;)
Click to expand...
Indeed, well before monotheism there was no one omnipotent God, in a dualistic religion for example, power would have been divided equally between the two forces.

When you try to have a single omnipotent God, but also an omnibenevolent God, problems being to arise, of which Satan/Lucifer is a semi-solution.
 
jewscout

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Phillip said:
Ok, Polythiests welcome, but so we can stay on subject, this thread is about the Judeo-Christian God and Lucifer. Again I repeat, I'd like input from anyone, just not so much about other religions. Thanks.

If God is all knowing, then when He created the angels He knew that Lucifer would betray him and go off and oppose him(fairly successfully). If also he is all powerful then at any point from before the creation on, he could have put a stop to it. In that context, you could assume that anything Lucifer has ever done and will do, is God's will. If then, Lucifer is evil and does evil things, evil things and benevolent things must both be God's will. At that point in the logic, why is there a Lucifer at all? God is all powerful, why not just do good and evil Himself? There's where I get to my point. I don't think there is a Satan. I think that God preserves the balance himself. I do believe in balance, if there was no evil in the world one would never know good.

Ok, your turn now. Thanks.
Click to expand...

well that's one reason why i don't believe in a christian concept of satan...
 
S

Satan Mighty God

New Member
Hello

This is an article made by myself.

Is JHWH a liar?


1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
-JHWH says that adam and eva will die when they touch it or eat from the tree which is in the midst of the garden.
-Satan says that they will not die(when they eat or touch the fruit).

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Here Satans says clearly that adam and eve will be like gods and knowing good and evil . Satan wants us to give knowledge and be like gods!

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

Satan has kept his word! This is what adam and eve wanted to have. Their eyes opened! No more slaves! And they still lived...

22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

JHWH confirms that Satan was right!
Remember Satan said that adam and eve will become like gods and knowing good and evil? JHWH confirms that Satan was right!
Satan is a righteous God
Satan is the path to the tree of life!!!
Guide us Father Satan!!!

Hail Satan
 
Neale

Neale

Debonaire Rationale
God "values" free will. Evil is a an element of free will. Satan is evil. Therefore, God "values" Satan :)

If God wanted to, he could reveal himself to us and obviously destroy Satan/Evil. I suppose since God works in mysterious and breathtakingly inefficient ways, then humans are going to have free will.
 
S

sparkyluv

Member
Satan Mighty God said:
Hello

This is an article made by myself.

Is JHWH a liar?


1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
-JHWH says that adam and eva will die when they touch it or eat from the tree which is in the midst of the garden.
-Satan says that they will not die(when they eat or touch the fruit).

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Here Satans says clearly that adam and eve will be like gods and knowing good and evil . Satan wants us to give knowledge and be like gods!

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

Satan has kept his word! This is what adam and eve wanted to have. Their eyes opened! No more slaves! And they still lived...

22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

JHWH confirms that Satan was right!
Remember Satan said that adam and eve will become like gods and knowing good and evil? JHWH confirms that Satan was right!
Satan is a righteous God
Satan is the path to the tree of life!!!
Guide us Father Satan!!!

Hail Satan
Click to expand...
Genesis 3:19, 22 ----> Satan did lie, they did die. Not right away, but they did die. God never said they wouldn't know good and evil. Satan isn't the path to the tree of LIfe. The Tree of Life was in the Garden of Eden and man doesn't have access to it anymore. If anything, Satan cut off the path to the Tree of Life.

Who knows why God created Lucifer? It's all apart of his plan for whatever reason.
 
Halcyon

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
jmoum said:
You know, in the Bible, more often than not (at least from what I've heard), Satan doesn't actually corrupt people. He more justs tests their faith and steadfastness.
Click to expand...
In the OT, yes that's correct.

jmoum said:
As for the book of Isaiah, where it talks about the fall of Lucifer, aren't they actually talking about the King of Babylon? I'm almost certain. *Sigh* Where are my Bible Scholars when I need them?
Click to expand...
Correct again. Jesus is also called the morning star aka Lucifer a couple of times in the NT too.
The whole Satan/Lucifer/Devil thing is a big mess.
 
jewscout

jewscout

Religious Zionist
jmoum said:
You know, in the Bible, more often than not (at least from what I've heard), Satan doesn't actually corrupt people. He more justs tests their faith and steadfastness.

As for the book of Isaiah, where it talks about the fall of Lucifer, aren't they actually talking about the King of Babylon? I'm almost certain. *Sigh* Where are my Bible Scholars when I need them?

[Edit: By the way, I don't believe in Satan. I'm just half heartedly trying to approach this from a scholary viewpoint.]
Click to expand...

yes Isaiah is talking about the king of babylon, not any sort of angelic being or whatever...Lucifer was added much later
 
jewscout

jewscout

Religious Zionist
i've always sort of envisioned satan as being Tommy from "Goodfellas"
tommydevito.jpg

and G-d's like Paulie
paulie1.jpg
 
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Halcyon

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
jewscout said:
i've always sort of envisioned satan as being Tommy from "Goodfellas"

and G-d's like Paulie
Click to expand...
Really? Well based on looks :sarcastic i'd say it was the other way around.
 
Jerrell

Jerrell

Active Member
I Answer as a Minster of Christ,

When God created you, he knew you would sin, yet he created you anyway.

When God created Hitler he knew what Hitler would do, yet he created him anyway.

God created Geroge Washington, he knew what he would do, yet he created him anyway.

God created Rev. Martin L. King Jr., he knew what he would do, yet he created him anyway.

God has a plan and a reason for everyone, and though he created everyone to be perfect including angels and human beings, we as humans always fall short of the glory of God. Angels, yes, even Angels have a Free Moral Choice, to either Serve god, or to serve themselves. Lucifer was created to serve God, and he made his own Choice to serve himself. Now if God did not create those who would betray him, not one living being would be alive today...we all fall short, even Satan, the diffrence is, that we can be saved by the Blood of Jesus.
 
Draka

Draka

Wonder Woman
Nah...come on, we all know that the great and wise creators of South Park:bow: have revealed the truth:



 
Real Sorceror

Real Sorceror

Pirate Hunter
Phillip said:
If God is all knowing, then when He created the angels He knew that Lucifer would betray him and go off and oppose him(fairly successfully). If also he is all powerful then at any point from before the creation on, he could have put a stop to it.
Click to expand...
You're assuming that God knows the future. Does "all-knowing" include things that cannot be known? If God does not know the future, then He created Lucifer thinking that he would be normal and Good.
In that context, you could assume that anything Lucifer has ever done and will do, is God's will. If then, Lucifer is evil and does evil things, evil things and benevolent things must both be God's will.
Click to expand...
God gave Lucifer free-will. It was a gift. Just becuase people choose to abuse this gift does not mean that God approves of their actions.
At that point in the logic, why is there a Lucifer at all? God is all powerful, why not just do good and evil Himself?
Click to expand...
Niether Lucifer or God are responsible for the evil in the world. Evil is the neccassary drawback of free-will. People are evil becuase they choose to be, not becuase of any actions taken by God or the Devil.
There's where I get to my point. I don't think there is a Satan. I think that God preserves the balance himself. I do believe in balance, if there was no evil in the world one would never know good.
Click to expand...
And really it doesn't matter if there is or isn't a Devil. Lucifir does not have some supernatural control over the evil that we do. It could be said that we are the ultimate evil.
 
P

Phillip

Member
Ok, this leads me to my point, I think that there is no Satan at all. I find Duothiesm confusing as you have to wonder "Why only 2?". Polythiesm I understand, but going on the fact that I want to keep it simple and I only see a need for 1Good, and 2Evil, let's go with Monothiesm. I think that God being all powerful and all knowing, could have 2 distinct lines of thought at once, and be both completely benevolent, and tempting and merciless.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
 
Jerrell

Jerrell

Active Member
Please do not get the Anti-Christ (The Beast) confused with Satan. The Beast is not Satan, but he is heavilly influenced by Satan. Satan is not a human being, and does not have flesh and blood, but he may take form as a human through the spirit, influencing their actions.


Also Satan does corrupt people, he corrupted Judas, but Judas allowed him to do so (John 13:27).

Satan goes by many names: Belial, Zues, The Dark One, Lucifer, Lord of Flies, Osiris, Hades...Satan takes on many forms, he is a liar, so I am not surprised many dont beleive in him, they probably just don't see him at work...he has a tendency of fooling people.
 
Jerrell

Jerrell

Active Member
What is GOd's WIll? Does God want evil to be done? Why do we blame what others do on God? If you go and murder someome is that God's Will? or your own will? Satan is an influencer, and so is God, wether you beleive they exist or not Satan represents all that is Bad and evil and foul. God represents all that is good, righteous, and perfect. I choose God, and i will serve him as long as I live, he has been good to me.
 
Halcyon

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Jerrell said:
Satan goes by many names: Belial, Zues, The Dark One, Lucifer, Lord of Flies, Osiris, Hades...Satan takes on many forms, he is a liar, so I am not surprised many dont beleive in him, they probably just don't see him at work...he has a tendency of fooling people.
Click to expand...
Zeus and Osiris are Satan? What do you base that on?
 
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