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Why learn about other faiths?

How valuable is it to learn about other Faiths?


  • Total voters
    47

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, lots of people claim they aren't insulted when they are. By the tone of your words, you certainly sound insulted.
Saying that I sound insulted is just your impression so that is okay, but if I say I was not insulted and you say I was insulted that is contradicting me and it is like calling me a liar.

People should NEVER speak for other people and (a) how they feel or (b) what they think, because they cannot know either. This is disrespectful. If someone wants to know what someone is thinking or feeling they should ask. That is respectful.
A few days back a non-Baha'i came on and presented an alternative story, and got reported for being insulting. So who knows really?
It certainly was not me. Are you implying that it was me? I do not even read that smut.
I like alternative stories. You learn a lot more.
You do not learn anything about the “real” Baha’i Faith by reading lies that are posted by detractors.

That is akin to saying you learn a lot more about Christianity from Buddhists who do not even believe in Jesus than you learn from Christians. When I want to learn about Christianity I post to Christians. I might not agree with what they believe, but that is an entirely separate matter.

Of course, if your “goal” is to confirm what you already believe and/or want to believe about the Baha’i Faith, then reading what the detractors say makes a lot of sense. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Some older religions were considered totally wrong and false by the God of Israel, and God had his chosen people kill those people and/or their prophets. So some religions of some cultures are false.

And, when does a religion get outdated? Christianity had beliefs considered wrong by Baha'is early on. So, I've asked this before, when did Christianity ever have it right?
When I say religion, I mean the original scriptures or as close as we can get to them. I do not mean the doctrines that Christians created from misinterpreting the Bible.

I do not know the history of Christianity, but Christianity might have had it right in the very beginning, but it went south soon after that after the Councils such as Nicaea.

As Shoghi Effendi said in that long passage in the other post I just answered, the spiritual verities of the revealed religions never get outdated as they are eternal. Only the social teachings and laws get outdated and the message gets outdated when it is no longer needed in a successive age.

The first part of the Religion of God which refers to spiritual truth is the same in every religion. The second part of the Religion of God which refers to material things is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.

In the following passage, the Law of God refers to the divinely revealed religion of God. The spiritual message (spiritual virtues and divine qualities) are the same in all the great world religions:

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......
These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world,and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48
In addition to these two parts of the Religion of God, we have the primary mission of each Messenger, which changes from age to age; and it is progressive, each mission building upon the previous one. Jesus focused on a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Muhammad focused on nation building, and Baha’u’llah focused on world unity and the oneness of mankind. Each one of these was a necessary building block that enabled the next one to take place. Mankind’s spiritual evolution develops gradually, proceeding step by step, and that is why God reveals religious Truth in various stages over time, called Progressive Revelation.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
You do not learn anything about the “real” Baha’i Faith by reading lies that are posted by detractors.

But often they are not detractors. Many are just ordinary folks that grew beyond the Baha'i dogma, or just discovered it didn't work for them. Gut-wrenching decisions by real people who did a lot of soul searching. Some left after many years.

Bahai's claim that people are free to leave, and then when someone does, they are labelled detractors? Massive overgeneralisation, in my view. But it definitely supports, the 'Either you're with us, or against us' mindset so common in fundamentalism.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But often they are not detractors. Many are just ordinary folks that grew beyond the Baha'i dogma, or just discovered it didn't work for them. Gut-wrenching decisions by real people who did a lot of soul searching. Some left after many years.
"I discovered it did not work for me" tells it all. If they became a Baha'i for any reasons other than believing that Baha'u'llah was the Manifestation of God for this age then they will leave as soon as they are not getting "what they want" from the religion. Religion is not about what people want, it is about Truth. If someone really believes in Baha'u'llah, they will put aside what they want for what God wants for them, as revealed by Baha'u'llah. They might not like some of the Laws but they will at least try to adhere to them and admit in principle that Baha'u'llah cannot be wrong since he speaks for God. Thus it is the ego that gets in the way -- " I know more than God about what is right," but to say that is illogical since God is All-Knowing and All-Wise.
Bahai's claim that people are free to leave, and then when someone does, they are labelled detractors? Massive overgeneralisation, in my view. But it definitely supports, the 'Either you're with us, or against us' mindset so common in fundamentalism.
I never said that people who drop out of the Bahai Faith are detractors. Those are just ex-Baha'is. The detractors normally never become Baha'is.

Sorry, but the mindset you are speaking is 'Either you're with us, or against us' is a gross misconception about the Baha'i Faith. There are lots of those misconceptions floating around. I just received this article last night that explains why that is a misconception:

Do You Have to Be a Baha’i to Be Part of the Baha’i Community?

How many Christians do you think work with people who are not Christians and welcome them into their community?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Sorry, but the mindset you are speaking is 'Either you're with us, or against us' is a gross misconception about the Baha'i Faith. There are lots of those misconceptions floating around. I just received this article last night that explains why that is a misconception:

And yet you seem to be able to keep the mindset going quite well by not listening to arguments at all.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Learning about other religions helps to bring down religious prejudices and a judgemental attitude because of conditioning and ignorance.

There is an interesting saying by Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, " The 'other' is always a threat. But with multi-religious and multi-cultural value-based education, the threat can disappear. Ultimately, the thought process changes when perception changes, opening the door for cooperation and peace. "

“The only way to get rid of fanaticism in the world is through education that is broad-based, multi-cultural and multi-religious, so that a child growing up does not think that only the Bible or only the Koran holds the truth.”
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member

“The only way to get rid of fanaticism in the world is through education that is broad-based, multi-cultural and multi-religious, so that a child growing up does not think that only the Bible or only the Koran holds the truth.”

Sometimes learning ab out other religions exposes them for what they are. ... i.e. ... that they believe their truth is the only truth.

So do we learn to not tolerate the intolerant? Or we do we learn to tolerate the intolerant, despite the fact they may well be dangerous to to the very existence of our faith?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Saying that I sound insulted is just your impression so that is okay, but if I say I was not insulted and you say I was insulted that is contradicting me and it is like calling me a liar

Trailer. Actually, this is the heart of your conversation with everyone.

We are not calling you a liar or referring to you as a lier (I hope) just because your belief says a christians faith is outdated.

Thats an insult in and of itself. It has nothing to do with you as a person. It specifically has to do with your religion.

So, if you are angry, insulted, or fustrated or ignore (over) people because they tell you, you insult them they are just expressing their belief, just as you. And probably, just as you, they think you telling them they area lier because of it.

It works both ways.

We each have differing opinions. No one is lying. Catholics claim they love LGBT but want to fix us in the middle of that love. People have very funky ways of defining peace, salvation, and love. But thats just you guys religion.

It has nothing to do with you as a person. You are not lying just we are both, on both sides, perceving it that way when we feel our opinions are not heard and addressed.

Its basic psychology. Even the word -you are, you this, you that-provokes feelings because it makes you automatically assume we are referring to you as a person.

We are not. Just RF gives us the freedom to challenge your logic and beliefs. It gets hot but only when we take it that way. Others, like myself, are eating a lemon pie, watching the clouds, and wondering what why the heck people think the way they do.

Anyway, whether you read this or not is not my deal. When you do charity or speak peace it has no strings attached. So, I hope this gives you something. It did me so Im smiling. Take it our leave it.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Sometimes learning ab out other religions exposes them for what they are. ... i.e. ... that they believe their truth is the only truth.

My study of the bible and sufism only increased my faith in Advaita, and understanding of it.

An example being of Jesus stating 'I and my Father are one' ( John 10:30) , Mansur Al Hallaj stating, "Ana 'l-Ḥaqq - I am the Truth" , all which corresponds to the Upanishadic verse , ' Aham Brahmasmi - I am He'.



So do we learn to not tolerate the intolerant? Or we do we learn to tolerate the intolerant, despite the fact they may well be dangerous to to the very existence of our faith?

I consider that the greatest danger to the existence of the faith, would be pseudo-scholars who misinterpret teachings to suit their theories and fantasies.

This happens in all religions as well.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
My study of the bible and sufism only increased my faith in Advaita, and understanding of it.

An example being of Jesus stating 'I and my Father are one' ( John 10:30) , Mansur Al Hallaj stating, "Ana 'l-Ḥaqq - I am the Truth" , all which corresponds to the Upanishadic verse , ' Aham Brahmasmi - I am He'.

I consider that the greatest danger to the existence of the faith, would be pseudo-scholars who misinterpret teachings to suit their theories and fantasies.

This happens in all religions as well.

Actually, I see no real danger to our faith. Some minor stuff, sure, but we've lasted some 6000 years, so I don't see any real immanent danger. In fact, if anything, there is revival.

The quote you got from the other religion is cherry picking. You've interpreted it to be advaitic in nature, which is just confirmation bias. I prefer not to interpret other folks' scriptures at all. I think that's more fair to them. It happens ion the opposite way as well, with Christian 'scholars' (the Reverend Pope comes to mind) seeing our Vedic scriptures through Christian eyes, so much commentary just compares it to something in Christianity.

All this is fine, just not my cup of tea.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Actually, I see no real danger to our faith. Some minor stuff, sure, but we've lasted some 6000 years, so I don't see any real immanent danger. In fact, if anything, there is revival.

You are privileged to have your opinions.


The quote you got from the other religion is cherry picking. You've interpreted it to be advaitic in nature, which is just confirmation bias. I prefer not to interpret other folks' scriptures at all. I think that's more fair to them. It happens ion the opposite way as well, with Christian 'scholars' (the Reverend Pope comes to mind) seeing our Vedic scriptures through Christian eyes, so much commentary just compares it to something in Christianity.

All this is fine, just not my cup of tea.

See, you have admitted many times that you are not a scholar honestly, and so obviously do not have a precise knowlege of the subject. This is especially true of advaita, which is a difficult philosophy to comprehend. When distorted versions of advaita was stated in the hinduism forum by some, you did not have any idea that it is wrong and just passively accepted what came along due to superficial understanding of Advaita.

I just happen to have been with enlightened masters and had a good grasp of the subject. So this is why I highlighted the similarities.

If the pope or imam also makes such similarities between these religions, it will definitely help in inter-religious understanding as well.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
You are privileged to have your opinions.




See, you have admitted many times that you are not a scholar honestly, and so obviously do not have a precise knowlege of the subject. This is especially true of advaita, which is a difficult philosophy to comprehend. When distorted versions of advaita was stated in the hinduism forum by some, you did not have any idea that it is wrong and just passively accepted what came along due to superficial understanding of Advaita.

I just happen to have been with enlightened masters and had a good grasp of the subject. So this is why I highlighted the similarities.

If the pope or imam also makes such similarities between these religions, it will definitely help in inter-religious understanding as well.

You're right, I'm not an advaitin.

For some reason, universalists believe we can't have respect without finding similarities. I've always found that peculiar, because for me, I can totally respect any person on this planet despite vast differences. The differences are what makes the person interesting. All the major religions hold their own independently, without much common ground in philosophy. In virtues day to day, sure. You'd think people couldn't possible work together, if they have philosophical differences. In my experience, quite the opposite is true. Interfaith councils are an example.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
You're right, I'm not an advaitin.

This does not require much convincing. :D


For some reason, universalists believe we can't have respect without finding similarities. I've always found that peculiar, because for me, I can totally respect any person on this planet despite vast differences. The differences are what makes the person interesting.

The differences are superficial and exist on the surface. In the bottom you will find the core of the same simple truths in all religions. It takes much time, intuition and maturity to understand this fact.


All the major religions hold their own independently, without much common ground in philosophy. In virtues day to day, sure. You'd think people couldn't possible work together, if they have philosophical differences. In my experience, quite the opposite is true. Interfaith councils are an example.

Philosophical differences are not the same as philosophical distortions.

You are right in that interfaith councils are possible due to similarities in virtues and other points.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
This does not require much convincing. :D

The differences are superficial and exist on the surface. In the bottom you will find the core of the same simple truths in all religions. It takes much time, intuition and maturity to understand this fact.

Fact?????
This is not a fact. It is your belief. Please don't conflate your beliefs with facts. You're entitled to your beliefs.

Lots of people have done as much study on religions, and arrived at opposite conclusions. That also is their belief.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And yet you seem to be able to keep the mindset going quite well by not listening to arguments at all.
How do you know what I listen to?

What mindset? What arguments?

I asked you some questions before but you never answered them. Apparently when you are called out your style is to ignore my questions. It is called hit and run.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The differences are superficial and exist on the surface. In the bottom you will find the core of the same simple truths in all religions. It takes much time, intuition and maturity to understand this fact.

Yes, I fully agree. It is a fact. That is what my religion teaches:

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.”Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Question: Why do you think “certain people” on this forum talk about me so much? What benefit do you think they derive from that?

Answer: Looking at me is a lot easier than looking at themselves. This is psych 101 stuff.

I have a wonderful dialogue going on with a Christian on this forum and even though we completely disagree about beliefs. She never said she felt insulted by my beliefs and she knows exactly what they are. She never criticizes me or even my beliefs and I extend her the same respect... I wonder why that is?

Sheesh, maybe it is because she is a Christian:

Matthew 7:1-5 Do not judge, or you will be judged. For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while there is still a beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

As for certain people on this forum who “think” they have me pegged they are not only highly arrogant but they are also wrong. Oh no, it is not about me as a person. Just look at how many times the words “you” and “your” was used. :rolleyes:

The entire post below was referring to me as a person.

Unveiled Artist said:

“Trailer. Actually, this is the heart of your conversation with everyone.

We are not calling you a liar or referring to you as a lier (I hope) just because your belief says a christians faith is outdated.

Thats an insult in and of itself. It has nothing to do with you as a person. It specifically has to do with your religion.

So, if you are angry, insulted, or fustrated or ignore (over) people because they tell you, you insult them they are just expressing their belief, just as you. And probably, just as you, they think you telling them they area lier because of it.

It works both ways.

We each have differing opinions. No one is lying. Catholics claim they love LGBT but want to fix us in the middle of that love. People have very funky ways of defining peace, salvation, and love. But thats just you guys religion.”


Then after talking about ME as a person, we have this...

Unveiled Artist said:

“It has nothing to do with you as a person. You are not lying just we are both, on both sides, perceiving it that way when we feel our opinions are not heard and addressed.

Its basic psychology. Even the word -you are, you this, you that-provokes feelings because it makes you automatically assume we are referring to you as a person.

We are not. Just RF gives us the freedom to challenge your logic and beliefs. It gets hot but only when we take it that way. Others, like myself, are eating a lemon pie, watching the clouds, and wondering what why the heck people think the way they do.

Anyway, whether you read this or not is not my deal. When you do charity or speak peace it has no strings attached. So, I hope this gives you something. It did me so Im smiling. Take it our leave it.”


Clearly, this entire post was about ME as a person just like all the previous posts posted by this poster during the last two days. It just does not stop. NONE of this post or the others were about my beliefs. They were all about ME an how I insulted people for believing what I believe.

I do not care if people challenge my beliefs, but clearly that is not what this post above or the others were about. Do you see anything about my beliefs in this post? No, all we see are the words you, you, you, repeated over and over again. The question is why people can’t mind their own business and look at their own behavior.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.”
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

No, it is no big deal if I read it. The mission of humiliating me on a public forum has been accomplished, not that I care because people who criticize other people only humiliate themselves.

This is what happens when people lack self-awareness, but I do not CARE if people are aware of what they are doing or not. They are still responsible for their behavior. Probably the worst thing is how they do it with subterfuge, hoping nobody will spot how critical they are, but most people are not that dumb.

Oh, thank God I am a Baha’i and I have some “Guidance” about Justice. That is the only reason I called this behavior out.

2: O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4

What some people on forums do not like about me is that I am honest. I will not pussyfoot around and lie about what the Baha’i Faith teaches just so people won’t be uncomfortable. If they want to come to a religious forum they are going to read things they do not like or agree with. The most important thing is how they handle that, with grace as most Christians handle it, not with criticism.
 
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Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
What some people on forums do not like about me is that I am honest. I will not pussyfoot around and lie about what the Baha’i Faith teaches just so people won’t be uncomfortable. If they want to come to a religious forum they are going to read things they do not like or agree with. The most important thing is how they handle that, with grace as most Christians handle it, not with criticism
A Dutch proverb goes something like this: 'If you bounce a ball you can expect it to bounce back to you'.
If you criticize someone's faith even through the teachings of your own faith you can expect some nastiness back.
Take it as a human and don't moan about it too much.;)
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
How do you know what I listen to?

What mindset? What arguments?

I asked you some questions before but you never answered them. Apparently when you are called out your style is to ignore my questions. It is called hit and run.

Why the bold letters?
 
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