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Why does God not talk to us?

BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Bob the Unbeliever said:
Nope. That's not how it works. The bible is assumed to be false-- unless you can prove otherwise with non-bible sources. So far? Fail-- the bible remains false (it's the claim, and cannot be proof of itself).



I'm sure you think you did not-- but, in fact, that's the sum of your counter-"argument". You 100% ignore the content of my criticism, as you continue to do here-- instead focusing on personal attacks.



I'm certain you believe that. But I've yet to see substantive counter-argument to my criticism-- in fact, you don't mention my criticisms at all-- those, you ignore, and LASER-in on attacking my credibility/integrety instead.

Not good.


A) Why? Why is sin so horrible? Is not your god capable of making a better way? No?

And why such brutality? Why not simply forgive, instead? Instead of this R-rated gratuitous display of torture-porn....

B) An immortal being cannot actually *die*, can it? Nope-- it specifically shows Jesus did not actually die.

Thus? No sacrifice of any sort-- humans have been tortured far worse, and for far longer than an hour or so in the afternoon. Jesus, being Immortal, was at worst, mildly inconvenienced. To an IMMORTAL? Less bothersome than an itchy mosquito bite...

You seem to continue to ignore this glaring failure in your narrative. Why is that?



What? This non-sequitur makes absolutely no sense, here, in this narrative....

In any case? Are humans created by your god or NOT? Why did your god deliberatetely create such fatally flawed beings in the first place? No-- Free Will doesn't excuse this near-absolute FAILURE on the part of your creator-god!

Every person ending up in hell? Is 100% the fault of your creator-god's failure to have created superior beings in the first place!

The fact your bible clearly states that something like 90% will end up in hell? That's 90% FAIL on your god's part...!

Either your god IS all-knowing, or it isn't. If it IS? Hell was deliberate and with malicious intent.




Yadda-yadda-yadda-yadda. That in no way excuses the deliberate, malicious use of brutal torture/murder...

Does it?


You've never been stung by a bee? Or pecked by a Blue-Jay? Or smelled the utter stench that wafts around buzzards? Or watched the delightful trickery of crows and black birds?

That's a mighty .... "interesting" use of the word ... "utopia" you got there... methinks you didn't think this through very deeply...


Except for Immortal Beings-- who, by definition, cannot actually die. So it looks like: NOT REALLY.



Well, all life is meaningless, if placed against the 15 billion year age, and 15 billion light-year size of the visible universe...

... or? Life is as Meaningful as you DECIDE it is. That's the beauty of being self-aware: We can easily choose Life's Meanings to be whatever we want. No need to invoke unproven Magic Beings.


Once again? Your bible MUST rise to at least the level of modern morality and ethics.

It does not do so, in may important ways. Humans have improved both since the bible was first written down, some 1720 years ago (Council of Nicea). We Got Better at this thing called Civilization.

We are Better People than the ancient bronze-age goat herders who inspired the bible's words-- alas, they did not even understand where the sun went at night, so we should probably give them a bit of an excuse.

Alas, the same cannot be said for modern people who still cling to a book that describes the best way to buy slaves, why it's ethical to sell your children into slavery to eliminate debt and other depravities...



So? Immortal Being. No big deal for such a being, barely qualifies as a "scratch".



Your bible vehemently disagrees with you, sadly. In this instance? You are MORE MORAL than your bible! Good!


You are wrong, for you fail to recognize the obvious: Morality exists because Humans have Decided it exists. Same goes for Ethics. Collectively, humans as a species, have come up with both concepts, and continually improve them over the hundreds of passing decades. This is why ancient books of Superstition (wherein slaves are legal, etc) are no longer Applicable in the Modern Age.

We humans are BETTER than the ugly bible's ancient morality and ethics-- YOU EVEN ADMIT THIS, when you so casually tossed out all the bible verses describing infinite torment...


LMAO! Dude! I do not for a New York Second, believe there are ANY gods behind the bible! It's simply too evil!

If there actually were? Such gods would have surely wiped us all out AGAIN-- it's obvious the bible's god has an UNCONTROLLABLE TEMPER. Story after story, where bible-god loses his collective sh--- and commands, "KILL THEM ALL-- LEAVE NO ONE UN-KILLED. EVEN THE CHILDREN"

If I was worried about such an evil being? I'd not be an atheist, now would I?

Here: I Challenge the Bible God to Smite Me Down. This will be the ... what? 1943d such challenge I've issued since roughly 2005. Still here. No smiting.

It seems that the bible's god isn't in the Smiting Business any longer-- now that we have Scientific Methodology working for us.....

.... Coincidence?


No-no- you mis-characterize what I said. The bible's principle narrative? Is that people are EVIL and will always do BAD, and other horrible things.

That whole "Are You Saved" or "Are You Redeemed" or other ugly language, that sends the priciple message: "YOU ARE WORTHLESS. YOU ARE BORN EVIL. YOU ARE POND-SCUM-- NO-- LESS THAN POND SCUM. NO WONDER GOD HATES YOU ENOUGH TO CREATE INFINITE TORTURE IF YOU DON'T LOVE HIM BACK"

A more horrific message I cannot think, to teach to a small child....


Oh, I am so sorry if you took me to be ... offended! Far from it. I enjoyed stretching my theological "legs" a bit-- you made me re-consider exactly how to write in such a way to get my criticisms across a very formidable barrier. You likely grew up with all the ugly language of the bible, and don't see it as anything other than "normal".

I was like you, you know, not all that long ago-- barely over a decade, in fact. It took a strong, re-examination of the bible, before I realized how ugly, how abusive it's core messages really are.

I had to go through a mental cleaning process, to get rid of my "it's always been this way" that had been brainwashed into me from birth. Not easy to do-- not everyone can re-examine the assumptions they were taught as little children... and I'm certain *I* haven't completed my process! I'm quite sure I have assumptions from a child, that are quite wrong...

It's part of being human: We cannot truly "step outside of ourselves"...
Click to expand...

Based on my understanding of the scriptures, I believe there will be many more people in Heaven than Hell. The 90% stuff you wrote concerns me, and sounds like you went to a toxic church, for which I apologize.

I will speak the truth in love and refrain from personal attacks, as I've done before, I do now.

I've been stung by bees but I don't see how instinctual behavior keeps one from utopia. I do see that intentional sin--I choose to go against the promptings of conscience to hurt another willfully, despite the knowledge that it's wrong to do so--would keep one from utopia. I also see utopia as a place of continual learning and growth and these things require some pain (bee stings) but not bad people (liars, murderers, the unfaithful excluded).

I've considered before why God couldn't forgive without the Christ being killed, I think it's a valid question that you have. My responses:

1) Sin is really bad and prevalent (paedophilia, rape, murder) and Jesus died for those folks, too

2) The NT says Jesus is a demonstration, a propitiation and an example

3) Getting hit by a bus is graphic and bloody, too, but Jesus stepped in front of a bus for me, I appreciate and do not despise Him for doing so

4) The Bible says Jesus received humility, exaltation and glorification for what He suffered--I'm not sure a snap of the Heavenly fingers deserves thousands of hymns and prayers, to be honest

5) Are you making another form of "God did X His way, not my way, so God and not me is wrong"?
 
Bob the Unbeliever

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
BilliardsBall said:
Based on my understanding of the scriptures, I believe there will be many more people in Heaven than Hell. The 90% stuff you wrote concerns me, and sounds like you went to a toxic church, for which I apologize..
Click to expand...

The 90% is from the bible. That whole "the gates to hell is wide, the gates to heaven is narrow-- many enter the gates to hell, but few enter into heaven". You may wish to look it up, as I no longer remember the exact reference. But it's a very common theme. I am utterly baffled where you get the idea that most folk make it into heaven-- it's certainly not biblical...

Okay, I had thought it was in Revelations (a truly depraved work of literature, ought to be rated NC-17 at least). But it was from Matthew 7:13-23.

BilliardsBall said:
I will speak the truth in love and refrain from personal attacks, as I've done before, I do now..
Click to expand...

I realize that was your intent. Alas, that's not the message that is received from someone looking in, from the outside. And I was once on the inside as you are now, so I understand how you are blinded to the real messages you are sending out (however unintentional).

It's kinda like this: A parent wishes to raise a good child. So, when the parent sees the child doing something wrong/bad/harmful, the parent strikes the child, and tells him "bad! don't do that!"

The parent's intent is to raise a good child. But the message the child receives is "I get hit anytime I make a mistake. Hitting is a valid response to mistakes, therefore *I* will hit others too"

BilliardsBall said:
I've been stung by bees but I don't see how instinctual behavior keeps one from utopia. I do see that intentional sin--I choose to go against the promptings of conscience to hurt another willfully, despite the knowledge that it's wrong to do so--would keep one from utopia. I also see utopia as a place of continual learning and growth and these things require some pain (bee stings) but not bad people (liars, murderers, the unfaithful excluded)..
Click to expand...

The bee is simply being a bee. Humans are simply being human-- if a wee bit more complicated.

Why does your god get mad at humans for being exactly as they were created to be?

This absolutely makes no sense of any kind!

BilliardsBall said:
I've considered before why God couldn't forgive without the Christ being killed, I think it's a valid question that you have. My responses:

1) Sin is really bad and prevalent (paedophilia, rape, murder) and Jesus died for those folks, too.
Click to expand...

People are doing as they were created to do. It's not complicated, really. Can a Perfect Being create an Imperfect Creation? Only deliberately!

BilliardsBall said:
2) The NT says Jesus is a demonstration, a propitiation and an example.
Click to expand...

Why? Why such a horrific example? It's brutality in the worst sense.

"Here! I 'love' you! Let me murder this person as PROOF and bring you his bloody, still-beating heart as PROOF of how much I 'love' you! "

Hideous.
BilliardsBall said:
3) Getting hit by a bus is graphic and bloody, too, but Jesus stepped in front of a bus for me, I appreciate and do not despise Him for doing so.
Click to expand...

See above.
BilliardsBall said:
4) The Bible says Jesus received humility, exaltation and glorification for what He suffered--I'm not sure a snap of the Heavenly fingers deserves thousands of hymns and prayers, to be honest.
Click to expand...

"suffered"? Really? An immortal, perfect being.... ? I'm so not buying it any more than Superman can "suffer" from being slapped by Lois Lane... !
BilliardsBall said:
5) Are you making another form of "God did X His way, not my way, so God and not me is wrong"?
Click to expand...

Your argument, for #5, is Might Makes Right: you are excusing your god's grossly immoral behavior as "God Can Do Whatever God Wants". Which is true, for Omnipowerful

But it's not automagically Moral. I expect Gods to be at least as moral as mere mortal humans...!

The bible's god simply fails that test, over and over....

Here, let me spell it out a bit more graphically:

A child is brutally assaulted in the worst way, and then dies.

The theist says, "God was watching, and snatched that poor victimized child directly to heaven"

An moral person would ask, "Why didn't god intervene?" and then go on to observe, "If I became aware that a child was about to be assaulted and possibly murdered, I'd do everything within my power, to stop that, and save the child's life"

And just like that? The moral person is more moral that god, in this case. By a lot, actually.

"But-but-but---- free will!" WHAT ABOUT THE FREE WILL OF THE VICTIMIZED CHILD? Hmmm?

Is god so incapable, that it couldn't figure out SOME way to prevent this brutal happening, without usurping the free will of the perp? Oh, I dunno-- say making his car battery dead in the morning of the assault, such that the perp fails to leave his own house? And the two paths never cross in the first place?

This Isn't Rocket Science...
 
G

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
I believe in naked mole rats because I've seen the horrid little things on TV. I don't believe in unicorns, because I've never seen one and no-one has ever shown me a video or a photograph. Surely our religious beliefs should be based on experience too?
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Bob the Unbeliever said:
Not buying it. You haven't shown that a Magical Soul-thingy is real.
Used to keep gullible people in line, and to keep filling the coffers of religion through guilt.
Click to expand...

I find Adam did Not have a magical soul-thingy.
Please notice Genesis 2:7 because it says Adam ' came to be ' a living person or soul.
No where does it say Adam ' came to have ' a soul, or that Adam 'possessed ' a soul.
Rather, Adam was a soul or was a person.
Mortal Adam went from non-life ( clay ), to life, and returned back to non-life as per Genesis 3:19.
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
Mortal Adam started from the dust and ' returned ' back to the dust of the ground.
There was No post-mortem penalty for Adam and there is No post-death penalty for us.
For 'the dead know nothing' as per Ecclesiastes 9:5. Nothing but un-conscious sleep - John 11:11-14; Psalms 146:4.
So, there is NO magical soul-thingy, but we are living souls as long as we have the ' breath of life '.

You are so right, but it is false clergy who have often used scare tactics to ($) fleece the flock of God.
It is false clergy and Not Scripture. False clergy teach their religious traditional teachings as Scripture although Not being Scripture. That does Not make Genesis 2:7 as wrong, but makes false religious teachings as wrong.
 
Danny1988

Danny1988

Member
SerenelyBlue said:
Why does God act as if he is non existent?
Click to expand...
God is speaking all the time, but the problem is people like you refuse to listen. God has spoken out 66 Books filled with His message to mankind.

The Holy Bible contains Gods spoken Word to mankind, you should study His Word and find out what He is saying. You can find His complete message in the Bible, His message is the same for people in every generation. People are exactly the same today as they were 6000 years ago, so the message remains the same to every single person.

If you ignore Gods message, you will be held accountable for the way you lived every single minute of your life and you will pay for every single sin in hell. So the most important thing to know about life is Gods message, His message is the best news a person could ever hope to hear but it's the worst message for ignorant people.
 
Bob the Unbeliever

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Danny1988 said:
God is speaking all the time, but the problem is people like you refuse to listen. God has spoken out 66 Books filled with His message to mankind.
Click to expand...

How do you know this is accurate? You cannot point back to the bible itself, as this is your claim, and you cannot use the claim to "prove" itself.

That is known as bootstrapping, or circular reasoning. A Logical Fallacy.
 
Bob the Unbeliever

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Danny1988 said:
God is speaking all the time, but the problem is people like you refuse to listen. God has spoken out 66 Books filled with His message to mankind.
Click to expand...

Here's another problem I have with the above.

Why did god apparently wait something like 40,000 years before speaking to mankind?

We have ample evidences of ancient humans living and creating artifacts, dating back at least 50,000 years.

But most biblical scholars place the oldest bits of the bible only 10,000 at the most-- and in truth, the more reliable (respected) scholars put the majority no older than 2500 BCE and later. That makes the bible around 4500 years old, for the oldest, and the bulk are much younger.

So why did god wait so very long to begin to speak to humans?

And? Why did got STOP? Why are there no modern bibles? No modern books held in the same esteem as the bible? Why?

This seems to me, that god is either on an extended vacation? Or....???
 
Danny1988

Danny1988

Member
Bob the Unbeliever said:
How do you know this is accurate? You cannot point back to the bible itself, as this is your claim, and you cannot use the claim to "prove" itself.

That is known as bootstrapping, or circular reasoning. A Logical Fallacy.
Click to expand...
You kind are known as the willfully ignorant, the Bible is 100% accurate from cover to cover. No person has ever discovered a single error in it so you are without excuse, you will be judged by the thing written in the Bible and you ignorance will not be accepted ans an excuse for living in willful sin.

You will have to pay for every single sin you ever committed, the cost of one sin is eternity in hell
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Danny1988 said:
You kind are known as the willfully ignorant, the Bible is 100% accurate from cover to cover. No person has ever discovered a single error in it so you are without excuse, you will be judged by the thing written in the Bible and you ignorance will not be accepted ans an excuse for living in willful sin.

You will have to pay for every single sin you ever committed, the cost of one sin is eternity in hell
Click to expand...

Can you answer the question?

We know we are going to hell; but, thats not the point.
 
Bob the Unbeliever

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Danny1988 said:
You kind are known as the willfully ignorant, the Bible is 100% accurate from cover to cover..
Click to expand...

LMAO! Even the parts that command you to sell your daughter into slavery to pay off a credit card?

Even the parts that tell you how to beat your bible-approved slaves?

Even the parts that command you to NOT wear cotton-polyester clothing?

LMAO! "perfect" You crack me up!

BUT YOU DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION.
 
Danny1988

Danny1988

Member
DavidMcCann said:
Would that include the Flood (no archeological evidence), the Exodus (no archeological evidence), or the Sun standing still over Gibeon?
Click to expand...
There is plenty of evidence, but ignorant fools can't see it because they are too dumb to recognize in your face evidence and they have been brainwashed to reject facts and swallow only lies.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Bob the Unbeliever said:
The 90% is from the bible. That whole "the gates to hell is wide, the gates to heaven is narrow-- many enter the gates to hell, but few enter into heaven". You may wish to look it up, as I no longer remember the exact reference. But it's a very common theme. I am utterly baffled where you get the idea that most folk make it into heaven-- it's certainly not biblical...

Okay, I had thought it was in Revelations (a truly depraved work of literature, ought to be rated NC-17 at least). But it was from Matthew 7:13-23.



I realize that was your intent. Alas, that's not the message that is received from someone looking in, from the outside. And I was once on the inside as you are now, so I understand how you are blinded to the real messages you are sending out (however unintentional).

It's kinda like this: A parent wishes to raise a good child. So, when the parent sees the child doing something wrong/bad/harmful, the parent strikes the child, and tells him "bad! don't do that!"

The parent's intent is to raise a good child. But the message the child receives is "I get hit anytime I make a mistake. Hitting is a valid response to mistakes, therefore *I* will hit others too"



The bee is simply being a bee. Humans are simply being human-- if a wee bit more complicated.

Why does your god get mad at humans for being exactly as they were created to be?

This absolutely makes no sense of any kind!



People are doing as they were created to do. It's not complicated, really. Can a Perfect Being create an Imperfect Creation? Only deliberately!



Why? Why such a horrific example? It's brutality in the worst sense.

"Here! I 'love' you! Let me murder this person as PROOF and bring you his bloody, still-beating heart as PROOF of how much I 'love' you! "

Hideous.


See above.


"suffered"? Really? An immortal, perfect being.... ? I'm so not buying it any more than Superman can "suffer" from being slapped by Lois Lane... !


Your argument, for #5, is Might Makes Right: you are excusing your god's grossly immoral behavior as "God Can Do Whatever God Wants". Which is true, for Omnipowerful

But it's not automagically Moral. I expect Gods to be at least as moral as mere mortal humans...!

The bible's god simply fails that test, over and over....

Here, let me spell it out a bit more graphically:

A child is brutally assaulted in the worst way, and then dies.

The theist says, "God was watching, and snatched that poor victimized child directly to heaven"

An moral person would ask, "Why didn't god intervene?" and then go on to observe, "If I became aware that a child was about to be assaulted and possibly murdered, I'd do everything within my power, to stop that, and save the child's life"

And just like that? The moral person is more moral that god, in this case. By a lot, actually.

"But-but-but---- free will!" WHAT ABOUT THE FREE WILL OF THE VICTIMIZED CHILD? Hmmm?

Is god so incapable, that it couldn't figure out SOME way to prevent this brutal happening, without usurping the free will of the perp? Oh, I dunno-- say making his car battery dead in the morning of the assault, such that the perp fails to leave his own house? And the two paths never cross in the first place?

This Isn't Rocket Science...
Click to expand...

I believe the "narrow road" is clarifying the narrow option--Jesus's cross--versus the wide variety of devices people use for salvation and transformation like philosophy, law keeping, moral behavior etc. and is not proscriptive or descriptive of how many will get to Heaven. I find that miscarried and aborted children--a number about half of live births or more--are going to Heaven, as are all persons who rely upon/trust God for salvation--most live people I've met as well. This aligns with OT proverbs like "God made man right, but he seeks out many devices," then again, most of the NT echoes the OT or restates its premises.

Otherwise, you have some "half full glass" statements above, for example, righteous concern for victimized children but no praise to the Creator for healthy, happy children. And I don't think you wish me to respond, otherwise you wouldn't include rhetorical answers to your questions, like "Buh-buh-but free will!" I would sum much of what you wrote as "God doesn't do things the way I think they should be done, so God must be wrong." That is the closed-minded nature of inquiry that Christians often accuse skeptics of, so please rise above this and let's be open-minded and inquire together?

That is not a personal attack, by the way, but your invitation to ask me open questions without assuming what you think my answers will become.
 
Bob the Unbeliever

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
BilliardsBall said:
I believe the "narrow road" is clarifying the narrow option--Jesus's cross--versus the wide variety of devices people use for salvation and transformation like philosophy, law keeping, moral behavior etc. and is not proscriptive or descriptive of how many will get to Heaven. I find that miscarried and aborted children--a number about half of live births or more--are going to Heaven, as are all persons who rely upon/trust God for salvation--most live people I've met as well. This aligns with OT proverbs like "God made man right, but he seeks out many devices," then again, most of the NT echoes the OT or restates its premises..
Click to expand...

Interesting perspective. I, for the life of me, cannot fathom how on earth you got that out of those verses though-- as there was absolutely zero mention of the "alternative salvation" you listed... not even implied.... In fact, there are several verses that imply there are valid alternative salvation methods; it's only in the heretical book Revelations of John, that you find statements to the exclusivity of the Jesus road... which I always found Interesting with an I. If Jesus was exclusive? Why did Jesus himself never bother a mention-- indeed, he said otherwise on at least two occasions, when his followers were questioning the activities of others who were repeating the ideas Jesus was promoting, but were not members of the "exclusive Jesus club of 12"....

BilliardsBall said:
Otherwise, you have some "half full glass" statements above, for example, righteous concern for victimized children but no praise to the Creator for healthy, happy children. And I don't think you wish me to respond, otherwise you wouldn't include rhetorical answers to your questions, like "Buh-buh-but free will!" I would sum much of what you wrote as "God doesn't do things the way I think they should be done, so God must be wrong." That is the closed-minded nature of inquiry that Christians often accuse skeptics of, so please rise above this and let's be open-minded and inquire together?.
Click to expand...

Again, with the Might Makes Right failed non-argument. "Gawd Can Do What Gawd Likes Because Gawd"

This absolutely ignores the fact that humans-- mere humans-- act MORE MORALLY than bible's god... !

BilliardsBall said:
That is not a personal attack, by the way, but your invitation to ask me open questions without assuming what you think my answers will become.
Click to expand...

I'm learning -- and I seldom take offense (in reality) but I do love to pounce on perceived insults. :)

Obviously, the perception can be on either party's part, yes? :D
 
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