that which comes into being and disappears from being, isn't real anymore.
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Was Jesus a Heretic
- Thread starter Fool
- Start date
that which comes into being and disappears from being, isn't real anymore.
why is it important that he did/didn't exist? does that diminish the moral principles?
so why did he say that he left their house desolate?
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
No! Absolutely not.
Jesus was for the old laws to be replaced, supporting the Jewish people's needs and deserves against their leaders, the priesthood.
{QUOTE]would jesus be for/against today's christianity?[/QUOTE]
Against....... Christianity was not his goal, he didn't promote it, and stood for the rights of his own folks, the ordinary Jewish people.
Those were different sects of Judaism. There wasn't just one form of it at that time.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
He was at odds with the priesthood because the vast majority were a bunch of greedy, deceiving, careless, irresponsible hypocrites who had ignored important Jewish laws in favour of their own comfort and greed, and Jesus wanted the old laws fulfilled, including the poor laws.
He was set against the whole Temple fiasco......... so they set out to get him done away with.
Which Judeism? Weren't there competing sects, just as there are in Christianity or Islam?
Didn't He say something about not changing anything even a jot or tittle?
-- and what is a tittle, anyway?
Jesus (if he existed) was a Jew, probably an apocalyptic preacher. If alive today he wouldn't understand how his teachings became Christianity.
outlawState
Deism is dead
Jesus was deemed a heretic by the Jews because he was not perceived as fulfilling the requirements of the Jewish messiah, which anticipated physical deliverance of the Jews from their Roman oppressors.
He was also deemed a heretic because, although the Jewish Messiah was anticipated to be a human, in some sense he became identified with what might be termed, a Jewish version of Arianism, or the prospect of a too-human or fallible Messiah, i.e. never able to rise above the weaknesses inherent in man's human nature.
For Jesus lacked any political power, being unable or unwilling to subdue even his perceived enemies, the Pharisees and the Sadduccees. The lack of exercise of divine judgement upon perceived enemies of the Jews combined with his overt hostility to the hypocrisy of the Jewish political classes affirmed to them that he had insufficient approval or union with God, and was a charlatan.
In Trinitarian terms, Jesus is almost certainly an Arian heretic just by acknowledging the Father as his God, and by asserting the Father as greater than himself.
He was also deemed a heretic because, although the Jewish Messiah was anticipated to be a human, in some sense he became identified with what might be termed, a Jewish version of Arianism, or the prospect of a too-human or fallible Messiah, i.e. never able to rise above the weaknesses inherent in man's human nature.
For Jesus lacked any political power, being unable or unwilling to subdue even his perceived enemies, the Pharisees and the Sadduccees. The lack of exercise of divine judgement upon perceived enemies of the Jews combined with his overt hostility to the hypocrisy of the Jewish political classes affirmed to them that he had insufficient approval or union with God, and was a charlatan.
In Trinitarian terms, Jesus is almost certainly an Arian heretic just by acknowledging the Father as his God, and by asserting the Father as greater than himself.
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There were different groups following Judaism, each with different takes on the faith. Rather like the groupings in abrahasmic religions today
First, to agree or disagree with Judaism of the time does not determine if one is a heretic. There were several of different schools of belief competing beliefs within Judaism at the time.
Second, to be considered a heretic you would have to make a claim like being an incarnate God, or worship graven images or idols to be considered a heretic.
Pharisees, Sadducees, and Levites/Lawyers (Sanhedrin) are not Judaism, they're sects that were to be cut off (Zechariah 11:8)...
Modern day Rabbinic Judaism was originated in Babylon, and is a conglomeration of the three worthless shepherds (Zechariah 11:15-17).
Yeshua was accepted by Essenes, Ebionites, and the real Jews of the time (Zechariah 11:11).
Judah divorced the Lord, by paying 30 pieces of silver for him (Zechariah 11:12-13).
Yeshua's hand was out stretched, they rejected him, and the prophets.
Christianity was established by the Pharisees John, Paul, and Simon in Antioch (Acts 11:26)...
It is diametrically opposed to the teachings of Yeshua.
No he was the Arch Angel YHVH coming to correct the faults of his own religious Laws...
The heretics are Rabbinic Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Baha'i.
In my opinion.
I do not believe these claims would make Jesus a heretic. Making these or similar claims of fulfillment of prophesy would get you executed by the Romans or stoned to death by Jews, but it is not a heresy.
I believe that these claims were not necessarily made by Jesus were necessarily made by Jesus during his life.
I think the point of his resurrection is that he didn't disappear.
Trackdayguy
Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
Interesting post with some great comments. My 2 cents as an X charismatic fundamentalist christian is its irrelevant whether he existed or not.
Surely the real issue is the message. Like they say once you see it there's no denial. It appears to me that religious people are infatuated with whether things are truth. Isn't it the message that we connect with. If I read a quote written by who ever and it brings transformation to my life and family what does it matter if the person who was supposed to have made the quote was real of not, it wasn't him that changed me it was me responding to the message NOT the person.
In the end whats more important the change that happened in my life due to embracing the message or that the guy who wrote was real.
So was he a heretic ? In my opinion the question is irreverent, because its the message NOT the person. I guess that why John Spong calls literalism a gentile heresy. Literalism has got the masses running around asking the wrong questions.
Surely the real issue is the message. Like they say once you see it there's no denial. It appears to me that religious people are infatuated with whether things are truth. Isn't it the message that we connect with. If I read a quote written by who ever and it brings transformation to my life and family what does it matter if the person who was supposed to have made the quote was real of not, it wasn't him that changed me it was me responding to the message NOT the person.
In the end whats more important the change that happened in my life due to embracing the message or that the guy who wrote was real.
So was he a heretic ? In my opinion the question is irreverent, because its the message NOT the person. I guess that why John Spong calls literalism a gentile heresy. Literalism has got the masses running around asking the wrong questions.
I agree with @Trackdayguy that the Jesus of the Bible need not be a historical figure as pictured in the writing of scripture, but it helps me to believe him as a real person because only a real person can bring the message up from rhetoric to real life possibilities.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Judaism is an ancient, monotheistic, Abrahamic religion with the Torah as its foundational text. It encompasses the religion, philosophy and culture of the Jewish people.
Matthew 5:17-18 New International Version (NIV)
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
With regards to the Law or the Prophets, I would say Jesus came to fulfill them not to abolish them. However we have to distinguish the Law and the Prophets with Judaism, the latter which no longer the true worship to God because it was corrupted by philosophy [doctrines of men] and traditions, on this Jesus is bent on opposing.
Matthew 15:1-9 New International Version (NIV)
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’”
On the last question: "would jesus be for/against today's christianity?"
What is today's Christianity?
Catholic Church – 1.285 billion
Protestantism – 920 million
Eastern Orthodox Church – 270 million
Oriental Orthodoxy – 86 million
Restorationism and Nontrinitarianism – 35 million
Independent Catholicism – 18 million
Minor branches – 1 million
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 New International Version (NIV)
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Today's so called Christianity is divided. These churches do not agree with one another in what each say. The Bible says it shouldn't be the way. It is the truth that Christ built his church as he mentioned this on:
Matthew 16:18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
So I tell you, you are Peter. And I will build my church on this rock. The power of death will not be able to defeat my church.
The common thing about all of these churches is they acknowledge Jesus as Lord, but this isn't enough.
Matthew 7:21-23 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
“Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God’s kingdom. The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants. On that last Day many will call me Lord. They will say, ‘Lord, Lord, by the power of your name we spoke for God. And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.’ Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’
It would be a piecemeal answer for today's Christianity. On many Christians, Jesus Christ would say ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' and on those who did what his Father in heaven wants, the Lord Jesus would give them eternal life.
George Lamsa Translation of the Pe****ta
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore to yourselves and to all the flock, over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, to feed the church of Christ which he has purchased with his blood.
outlawState
Deism is dead
I tend to concur that "heresy" is perhaps not the right word in Judaism, just because there was never any well developed "orthodox" Jewish philosophy in the 1st century, like there is in Trinitarianism.
Jesus was put to death from a conspiracy between various Jewish elements, who ordinarily did not agree with each other, and did not agree with Rome either, with whom they entered into alliance respecting Jesus's death & execution. I merely listed the common reasons why the Jews might have disagreed with Jesus' theological claims; although doubtless it was the estimation of what was best for their own reputations that predominated.
I believe that Jesus was primarily crucified by Rome for claiming to be the King of the Jews. Jews opposed Jesus for the same reason, but I do not believe Rome acted on Jewish authority.
there was the pharisees and sadducees