To Christians

Ody · Aug 27, 2006

Ezzedean said:
So as a follower of judaism do you believe in reincarnation?

I haven't read enough on it to make a clear decision personally, its a controversial stand indeed but it does have some text to back it up.

Ody · Aug 27, 2006

Ezzedean said:
but I dont think it's a common belief that we will come back as an animal, a tree or a plant is it?

I haven't seen any evidence that the Zohar and other forms of Jewish mysticism teach that we will come back as lower species.

Genna · Aug 27, 2006

Katzpur said:
Let me ask you a question, Genna. Without an answer to this question, I can't answer yours.

If God were to prove His existence to you in this life, would you still reject Him? Or do you simply reject Him now because you don't see any evidence that He exists?

If God can prove His existence to me, then yes I would turn my life over to Him. But apparently the only means of proof Christians can provide is the word "faith," and that isn't good enough for me.

Genna · Aug 27, 2006

dawny0826 said:
Well, not all Christians have the same concept of hell. I'm only speaking from personal belief.

And I'm sorry, but it's my belief that if one is sent to hell, whatever hell is...they would deserve it.

It doesn't matter how many or how little sins one commits in their life time. Any sin makes us unclean. And we cannot go before the Father unclean. BUT...He worked out all the kinks for us. He made a plan so that we could be saved from our uncleanliness. Christ shed His blood, which covers sin.

He's already paid the price...I don't remember if I posted this in my last post or not, if I did, please forgive me. But...I liken it to someone purchasing you a ticket. The price has already been paid but you have to actually reach out and accept the ticket.

God full of mercy for each and every one of us. He loves us all. And He wants for us to be reconciled with Him...which is why He made a way for us to come to Him. But we must come to Him on our own free will. We were given free will...the ability to choose.

Eternity is the real deal. This life is over in the blink of an eye. What we do know...determines where we spend eternity.

God is willing to forgive us for ANY sin...but I believe that we are required to repent NOW.

How do you define ignorance here? I wouldn't consider a person ignorant of God if they're aware that God or at least the concept of God exists. If one has heard the gospel and rejects it...they're certainly not ignorant of God...they've simply chosen to reject God.

I'm a Christian and I sin. I'm not perfect at all...that's why I need Christ in my life.

Warm wishes to you. I'm not in any way, shape or form in the position to judge another's heart.

God knows us better than we know ourself and He loves us regardless.

I still don't understand how God can send me to hell, lets say if perhaps I commit fornication once. According to Christianity, I will be spending eternity being tortured in a burning lake of fire. This sounds deserving to you?

Ezzedean · Aug 27, 2006

Âlãn said:
The Zohar is part of the Oral Torah... from my perspective, most likely not for a Reform Jew or Conservative Jew
In the 'bible' itself Re-incarnation is intimated
Deut25:5-10 Deut 33:6 Isaiah 22:44 65:6

I suggest you look up a work called Arizal's "Shaar HaGilgulim"

Honestly Alan I don't doubt you.... I will check it out though. I was just wondering if that's what you believe, because it said in that quote that it wasn't in the Torah, but now I guess it's in The Zohar. I actually have a meeting with a Rabbi for a documentary I am filming so I will be sure to bring that up. Thanks for the info.

From what I knew about Judaism and all Abrahamic beliefs was that we didn't believe in reincarnation in the way that Idle faiths do. The ressurection to me was always something different than reincarnation, since we're coming back as our same selves only to be judged.... but I guess you learn something new everyday. So do you believe in reincarnation? I asked twice already. I will speak with the Rabbi and see what he has to say and bring it back to everyone here.

From what I got in that quote you left me was that there was a lot of conflict over the concept, and people weren't too sure of it. Seems like that is what I was talking about before with the Quran filling in holes and question marks left within the Bible... which would be no reincarnation, a ressurection but no reincarnation. Again, that's my belief and it's not necessarily the right one, but their is one true belief somewhere... and someone or a lot of people are following it.

Peace

Genna · Aug 27, 2006

Ezzedean said:
Sorry for the late response Genna.. went out and watched the Liddell v.s Babalu fight. I understand where you're coming from, and I see what you're saying. I'll try and say a few things that deal with post I've quoted above. First and foremost the different denominations within Islam and muslims is all mostly political.. I'm asuming you mean the Shiats and the Sunnis. The whole seperation between the two doesn't even have to do with the religion itself, it has to do with who one side felt should be a leader in Islam and another side didn't, this caused a seperation. We both see the Quran as the word of God. We both fast during Ramadan, believe in one God and believe in Muhammed as his final messanger, perform the five daily prayers, and believe in the Day of Judgment. As for the Muslims you say that believe there will be some who never receive paradise, I don't doubt it. There are some extreme muslims out there who refuse to believe that an "infidel" will receive paradise. There may be some people who receive a punishment which felt like forever, but eventually their time will come.

Now, you make mention to the love and respect we have for Jesus. This is true, and yes we do quote Jesus at times and marvel at his words. God made it clear within the text of the Quran the Injeel (Bible) was inspired by Him, but isn't His exact word. We are told to take from the Bible what doesn't contradict with the Quran. Now that's probobly an obvious tactic to you... of course we can believe in what goes hand in hand with the Quran, and of course we're gonna say what doesn't go with the Quran is wrong, but let me try and explain the situation.

You had Moses, who received word from God. He taught that word. He led his people and did amazing things, and freed them from the pharoah. He prophecised about things to come and tried to make clear to everyone what the path should be, and he also set out a law. Now, the people at the time of Moses didn't choose to gather all that information and compile it until long after Moses. Not only did they wait too long, the leaders at the time came together and decided amongst themselves what to keep and what not to keep in this book (Old Testament). This book was put together through stories past on from generation to generation. They wrote the Old testament to fit the needs of society, then comes along Jesus. Jesus claims to teach the exact same word of God in which Moses was teaching, but the teachings of Jesus were going against the Old Testament. How could the same teachings of God contradict one another? It seemed as if Jesus was teaching something different than Moses only becuase the information they had of the teachings of Moses at the time were twisted, hence why it didn't go hand in hand with what Jesus was saying, but Jesus was from God and so was Moses... and they definately taught the same thing. What happened after Jesus? Well they decide to write the New Testament 65-100 years after the death of Christ, the same mistake they made with the Old Testament. So try to imagine the fact that there were Christians for almost a hundred years who lived as Christians WITHOUT the New Testament, and now today in this day and age Christians live by the New Testament. When they came together to make the New Testament they kept things out to fit their desires. So in comes Muhammed. Who claims the EXACT same thing in which Moses and Jesus claimed, which was to be speaking the word of God. Only this time his purpose was to conceal that word and spread it throughout the world. God made a promise to the Muslims and to the world, which was to preserve that book (The Quran) forever. No man will take from it, and no man will add to it.

God taught that you cannot be a muslim without believing in Jesus, but not to believe in Jesus as the Son of God or as God, because considering to the Old Testament and the Quran that can't be. There are also many statements made by Jesus himself within the text of the New Testament which contradict the theory of Jesus being God or even the 'actual' Son of God. This can be discussed in another thread at another time but maybe you can see why the Muslims follow the Quran completely and aat the same time quote bits and pieces from the Bible, because bits and pieces of the Bible are true ( Probobly over 70 percent, which is more than bits and pieces).

Now it can be asked by many, "How do you know the Quran is the perfect word of God?"... Well, I believe it is. I see no error in it. I see no contradiction (even in answeringislam.com). Now this is MY belief. I understand that many wont have this belief, and that many dislike my beliefs, but that's fine with me. It just seems to me that The Quran fills in all the holes and question marks I encountered when reading the Bible.

You mention reincarantion. No Abrahamic faith believes in reincarnation, but it is an interesting theory and I can definately see how people believe in it. I personally don't believe in it.... for obvious reasons.

Sorry for such a long reply, but you make some interesting points and seem to be curious... so I think you deserve nothing less than what I just posted above. BTW, I noticed that you believed in the Devil, may I ask how you believe in the Devil but not in God? It's getting late though and I'm pretty tired, so I'm gonna head to bed. If you respond to this post I will see it eventually, but I don't know when.

Peace and Blessings
Ezzedean

Ooh, I love Chuch Liddell!But anyways, Christians point to a verse where Jesus says that He is the only path to God, how do you decide if these are his words and not altered? if you believe that these are truly Jesus' words, wouldn't this posit a contradiction to the islamic faith? I have co-workers who are Christians and they tell me that in the Old Testament sins were forgiven by shedding blood and that without shedding blood their is no forgiveness. Islam believes that the OT was inspired by God, so why doesn't Islam believe that shedding blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sins? You see, I am trying to reconcile the two faiths? please explain!

dawny0826 · Aug 27, 2006

Genna said:
I still don't understand how God can send me to hell, lets say if perhaps I commit fornication once. According to Christianity, I will be spending eternity being tortured in a burning lake of fire. This sounds deserving to you?

All sin is forgiveable. And to be forgiven for ANY sin, big or small...you need only to sincerely ASK for forgiveness...whether that sin is fornication or whatever.

God's really made it pretty simple for us. We're the ones who make it difficult.

God is love. God forgives. God wants us to be reconciled with Him...period. He's made a way for all of us, if we choose to, to spend eternity with Him.

As I've said...I truly believe, if one doesn't make it to heaven, to a great degree, they've chosen their destiny. God doesn't want you to suffer but as in this life...there are consequences for our actions.

Still, think of it this way...whether you believe that Christ WAS God or just God's son...God sacrificed someone incredibly Precious for you. Someone died for you...and not only died in agony but carried all your sin along with Him...so that you wouldn't have to carry blemishes when face to face with Christ on judgement day.

And not that I expect you or anyone to agree with me here...Satan loves to place the blinders on us....to place fear inside our minds and hearts.

God isn't the author of confusion and turmoil. The other guy is...just for the record. It's not God who would want to see you punished for eternity. So, if you're going to be angry for the way the system works...place blame where blame is due. On human beings for giving into SATAN and to Satan for being the ultimate creep that he is.

For God so LOVED the world, He sent His only begotten son and whoever believes in HIM, shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Hacker · Aug 27, 2006

Super Universe said:
We are now veiled, we cannot feel God. It is understood that we are confused about God and the universe. This is intentional so we can develop an understanding of ourselves, the kind of being we are, and what we are truly capable of when put in situations where we feel our backs are up against a wall.

God is not worried in the least. The moment your spirit leaves the earth it will remember who it really is and feel God's presence once again. You will be astonished that you spent so much of your time here worrying about material things that matter not to the universe.

Very true, I think that many people don't realize that there is NO happiness in seeking material things, no matter how much one has, it's finding peace and comfort with your spirit in essence, finding peace with God. And to the OP, I do NOT believe in hell fire, I believe that God is and always was a loving God and the ones who reject him go into this area of darkness, where there soul mourns and then continues on with their cycles of life, they are given chances, I mean, as a parent don't we give our children chances to learn and grow? Punishing ANYONE for eternity is disgustingly foolish....do you see all of the good Muslims on this website? I'm worried about them and other "Non Christians." I wonder if the Christians worry about them too! And obviously the "Non Christians" don't seem like they buy into this or they are fully dedicated to their belief system which obviously seems like they are not turing back, and are very comfortable with thier belief. How can anyone say their right? How do we know? How do they know?

Especially between all of the different subdivisions that support Christianity and Muslim. Do you think God is going to send them to hell? Or vice versa? It just irks me that people really believe this!

Super Universe said:
In the afterlife you go to the level that you've earned.

Selfish people go to a level where other selfish beings battle for power and control. God is not in this place. It truly is hell but those who love competition may actually fit in quite well here. But how will they ever get out?

Those who have dedicated their lives to helping others go to a level where there is a great deal of help and instruction, and beautiful gardens but this is not heaven. We have so much to learn before we make it all the way there.

God does not send you anywhere. You are making the choice for yourself now.

Virtually all religions are correct. The reason is because Christ, God's Son, has not set the rules so tightly as religions have.

We all have the same chance, the same mercy, and the same amount of forgiveness (an endless amount). All can eventually find heaven. How long it takes us to get there depends on the individual.

But that does not mean that we do not have a price to pay for wrongs committed here on the earth. God and His Son forgive us for sin but in the afterlife we must find and apoligize to the individual's we harmed. They must forgive us for us to truly fix our karma and continue on.

How many are you going to have to find in the afterlife?

I have to say Universe, our beliefs are very similar. Every time you post something it's a reflection of my belief. I never looked into the religion you follow, I'll be sure to do that tonight.

Ezzedean · Aug 27, 2006

Âlãn said:
I haven't read enough on it to make a clear decision personally, its a controversial stand indeed but it does have some text to back it up.

Sorry Alan I didn't see that post. I understand your stand on that and it is a difficult decision. I look forward to reading the text. Take care man.

Peace

Ezzedean · Aug 27, 2006

Genna said:
Ooh, I love Chuch Liddell!But anyways, Christians point to a verse where Jesus says that He is the only path to God, how do you decide if these are his words and not altered? if you believe that these are truly Jesus' words, wouldn't this posit a contradiction to the islamic faith? I have co-workers who are Christians and they tell me that in the Old Testament sins were forgiven by shedding blood and that without shedding blood their is no forgiveness. Islam believes that the OT was inspired by God, so why doesn't Islam believe that shedding blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sins? You see, I am trying to reconcile the two faiths? please explain!

I told you in a previous post that in Islam we can't believe in Muhammed withouth believing in Jesus. We also can't believe in Muhammed if we don't believe in Moses, because they are all a part of God. So yes, technically Jesus is a path to God just as much as Muhammed and Moses are. The same thing works with Jesus, how can you believe in Jesus without believing in Moses? You can't, it's impossible.... their
prophets of God, and believing in them is the only path to God. You have to remember, Jesus is telling this to his discilpes. So he is telling them if they believe in any other way than the way he is teaching it's not the way, and we Muslims believe that we have the true teachings of Jesus and Moses within the text of the Quran.. instead of it being in the Bible which we believe is altered. I can understand how people might be offended by my comments and not like what I have to say, but it's what I believe after finding out how much longer those books were written after the Prophets. I've read the Bible and finished reading it with a lot of confusion and questions that couldn't be answered by followers of the book... I was just told to have faith. That's when I knew Islam was for me. As for what is good for you? I don't know. I believe in one true path, and I don't believe that everyone can be right, but I can't say what that path is... but I'm sure you know what I believe it is.

Peace and Blessings Genna

Ezzedean

shema · Aug 27, 2006

Genna said:
How can such a loving God send someone to burn in hell forever for rejecting him? In other words, how can God send a finite person who is only capable of committing finite amount of sins in their life to an eternity in hell? This is justice?

God is Love and does not send anyone to hell, Hell was meant for satan and his followers...Although it is not God's will for anyone go to hell,we have a choice whether or not to go to perish or live forever. How can a person who is caplable of being sinless (God said be ye perfect for I am perfect..Be ye holy for I am holy) choose to burn in hell forever?

Booko · Aug 27, 2006

Genna said:
But anyways, Christians point to a verse where Jesus says that He is the only path to God, how do you decide if these are his words and not altered?

Even if you assume the words are true (I happen to), why assume there is only one possible understanding of them?

shema · Aug 27, 2006

Genna said:
How can such a loving God send someone to burn in hell forever for rejecting him? In other words, how can God send a finite person who is only capable of committing finite amount of sins in their life to an eternity in hell? This is justice?

God doesnt send anyone to hell.. Hell was made for satan and his followers. It is not Gods will that anyone go to hell, but some humans will go of their own free will..

Genna · Aug 28, 2006

shema said:
God is Love and does not send anyone to hell, Hell was meant for satan and his followers...Although it is not God's will for anyone go to hell,we have a choice whether or not to go to perish or live forever. How can a person who is caplable of being sinless (God said be ye perfect for I am perfect..Be ye holy for I am holy) choose to burn in hell forever?

Then thats impossible, I can't be sinless! then there is no hope for me. :sad4:

Genna · Aug 28, 2006

Booko said:
Even if you assume the words are true (I happen to), why assume there is only one possible understanding of them?

How else would you interpret what Jesus said beside how Christians interpret it?

Snowbear · Aug 29, 2006

Genna said:
Then thats impossible, I can't be sinless!

Bingo!

Genna said:
...then there is no hope for me. :sad4:

Yes there is. That's the beauty of the Gospel.... there IS Hope!
See... that's the crux of what most of us Christians believe.... Jesus' sacrifice allows us to be so completely forgiven of our sin that God see's us as if the sin never even happened!! :tigger:

Bishka · Aug 29, 2006

Genna said:
How else would you interpret what Jesus said beside how Christians interpret it?

Why would God send you to hell?

He doesn't is the answer.

retrorich · Aug 29, 2006

Genna said:
How can such a loving God send someone to burn in hell forever for rejecting him? In other words, how can God send a finite person who is only capable of committing finite amount of sins in their life to an eternity in hell? This is justice?

I've asked that question many times in these forums, and have yet to receive an answer that makes sense.

sojourner · Aug 29, 2006

Your first mistake is in thinking that all Christians regard the Bible as infallible, inerrent, or the literal words of God. Some do, some don't. Those that do tend to be more judgment oriented. Those that do not tend to weigh the scriptures more in favor of love and forbearance.

Once you get past this misunderstanding, and you begin to see the message of love, hope and forgiveness that come from a non-literalistic approach, you can begin to see the Christian message in a whole different light.

Your second mistake is in assuming that the Bible is the whole of God's message to us. The Bible reveals God to us, but God speaks to us in ways others than through the words of the Bible.

Once you get past this misunderstanding, you might attend a church that is loving and accepting and see God at work through the lives and actions of people devoted to loving their neighbor as themselves. Doing that might give you a whole different spin on 1) Who God is, 2) How much God loves you, 3) How desperately God desires the pleasure of your company, 4) how God runs to find and meet God's lost children (see Luke 15:4).

Jesus didn't come to scare us into belief. Jesus came to draw all people to himself in love. Bear in mind that, to Jesus, love is way more important than justice.

doppelganger · Aug 29, 2006

Genna said:
I still don't understand how God can send me to hell, lets say if perhaps I commit fornication once. According to Christianity, I will be spending eternity being tortured in a burning lake of fire. This sounds deserving to you?

It's for the pleasure of those who gave up such sinful temptations that they might look down upon your suffering and torment for all eternity from heaven and thereby more fully appreciate the precious gift "God" has given them.

At least, that's what some say:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/509403.htm

the doppleganger

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