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2 questions...

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Two questions I can't answer:
  1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
  2. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.

Surprise!

"I form the light, and I create darkness. I make peace, and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things." --Isaiah 45:7

The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.

It was all created in the first moment--there's no need for any further intermediation or meddling.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Two questions I can't answer:
  1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
God is neither good nor evil, because God is God. Good and evil are human value judgments.

  1. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.

Too anthropomorphic with an active imagination.

Careful how you use randomness here. Certain properties of Quantum Mechanics have been observed as possibly random from the limited human perspective. Randomness has no known causative purpose in randomness observed here. It simply is a consistent observed property.
 
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sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Two questions I can't answer:
  1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
  2. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.
"What ye sow, so shall ye reap" or in Eastern terms "karma". The only system that makes sense to me has this as a part along with reincarnation which is needed for sowing and reaping to be balanced.
 

socharlie

Active Member
Two questions I can't answer:
  1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
  2. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.
When Adam was kicked out of Eden he was promised death, toil, pain and taxes.
I think there is no micro- management but natural laws govern the system.
 

Cary Cook

Member
Two questions I can't answer:
  1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
  2. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.
1. It is scriptural and fashionable to say God is good, but it doesn't mean much. If good means beneficial to created beings who feel pain and have emotion, then the God who created this world does not appear to be good. Assuming a Supreme Being, then he is necessarily the arbiter of what is good, and is necessarily good, regardless of what he does. But in that case, what does good even mean? If it means doing what God does, then creating suffering is among things that are good. If it means doing what God wants one to do, that makes sense, but determining what God wants one to do is the next question. Some have tried to obey this maxim and given us Crusades, Inquisition, Taliban, 9-11, etc.
Even if the Supreme Being is necessarily good, the God to whom we are accountable may be a different Being, and possibly not good.

2. Again assuming theism, why not (3) God is a designer, creator, and manager, but not a micro-manager. He may leave some things subject to random chance.
 

JoshuaTree

Flowers are red?
Surprise!

"I form the light, and I create darkness. I make peace, and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things." --Isaiah 45:7



It was all created in the first moment--there's no need for any further intermediation or meddling.

Your last statement seems to agree with my perception that God's imagination is our reality and our soul is God's memory of us.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Two questions I can't answer:
  1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
  2. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.
both at once....
Man was made to be a learning device
self propelled and self replicating

pain is needed for this form to be self aware of injury and disease
it will then seek remedy and learn while doing so

all the 'superficial' items......religion, government, economy, military
are on the shoulders of Man
God gave Man dominion
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
It is scriptural and fashionable to say God is good, but it doesn't mean much. If good means beneficial to created beings who feel pain and have emotion, then the God who created this world does not appear to be good.
I assume God created everything, and that he should not be considered good if he created anything causing pain, suffering, or evil. Yet somehow there is pain, suffering, and evil. This is what I am pondering.

One solution is that a created free will creature (Lucifer) who rebelled against God. But this would mean he created the universe with its limited resources, the need for creatures to eat each other, and etc. This is more than Christians say about Lucifer. They think it is more satisfying to blame it all on Adam's sin, but this implies rapid evolution so that animals will become carnivores (for example), and a radical change to the natural laws to make the universe like it is today.

I'm stumped.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Assuming a Supreme Being, then he is necessarily the arbiter of what is good, and is necessarily good, regardless of what he does. But in that case, what does good even mean?
This seems problematic to me. It's like the Christian view that it's good when God commands the Israelites to commit genocide on the inhabitants of Jericho.

I see what you are saying though. If God is good (because he is God who must be good) then everything he does is by definition good. Even bad things...
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Even if the Supreme Being is necessarily good, the God to whom we are accountable may be a different Being, and possibly not good.
This assumes, I think, there is a supreme God who is good, but a subordinate god who is not good. Sounds like paganism to me (I don't mean this in a bad way, perhaps I should be using a different term) with it's multiple gods and perhaps a supreme God above them all.

But the question is, if there is one God (monotheism) as I believe, how did any of the subordinate gods come to have to power to corrupt things and to be able to create a bad universe?
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
He may leave some things subject to random chance.
I doubt that evolution can occur by random chance. I've not found any scientists claiming it's possible; they seem to merely assume it's possible because, well, because here we are. Not a very convincing argument.

The only time they discuss probabilities is in refuting bad calculations by critics of evolution. They never provide their own calculations.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
both at once....
Man was made to be a learning device
self propelled and self replicating

pain is needed for this form to be self aware of injury and disease
it will then seek remedy and learn while doing so

all the 'superficial' items......religion, government, economy, military
are on the shoulders of Man
God gave Man dominion
An interesting perspective I have never considered.

A side effect is that it treats us as mere unfeeling machines, without regard for the effects of pain, suffering, and evil, except for its positive benefits (for those who survive the pain and suffering and evil, those for whom it is not fatal).
 

Cary Cook

Member
I doubt that evolution can occur by random chance. I've not found any scientists claiming it's possible; they seem to merely assume it's possible because, well, because here we are. Not a very convincing argument.

The only time they discuss probabilities is in refuting bad calculations by critics of evolution. They never provide their own calculations.
I agree that increased complexity doesn't happen by random chance. But once a species is created, it can mutate and devolve by random chance.
 

Cary Cook

Member
This assumes, I think, there is a supreme God who is good, but a subordinate god who is not good. Sounds like paganism to me (I don't mean this in a bad way, perhaps I should be using a different term) with it's multiple gods and perhaps a supreme God above them all.

But the question is, if there is one God (monotheism) as I believe, how did any of the subordinate gods come to have to power to corrupt things and to be able to create a bad universe?
By monotheism, I mean the belief that either:
1. A Supreme Being created the first created thing, and he doesn't have any competition, but he may create any number of things including sub-deities.
or
2. There is only one God with whom we have to deal.

Any religious group is likely to call any other religious group pagan. I couldn't care less if somebody calls me one.

Assuming #1, The Supreme Being may have created a free will being who created another fwb, etc. ... who created this universe. The being who created this universe may or may not be subordinated to the SB.
 
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Cary Cook

Member
This seems problematic to me. It's like the Christian view that it's good when God commands the Israelites to commit genocide on the inhabitants of Jericho.

I see what you are saying though. If God is good (because he is God who must be good) then everything he does is by definition good. Even bad things...
I think you get it.
 

Cary Cook

Member
I assume God created everything, and that he should not be considered good if he created anything causing pain, suffering, or evil. Yet somehow there is pain, suffering, and evil. This is what I am pondering.

One solution is that a created free will creature (Lucifer) who rebelled against God. But this would mean he created the universe with its limited resources, the need for creatures to eat each other, and etc. This is more than Christians say about Lucifer. They think it is more satisfying to blame it all on Adam's sin, but this implies rapid evolution so that animals will become carnivores (for example), and a radical change to the natural laws to make the universe like it is today.

I'm stumped.
Basically good means that which is liked. It's purely subjective. Spinach tastes good to some people and bad to others. Behavior is good to somebody who likes it, and bad to somebody who dislikes it. But if we want to call some particular behavior objectively good (i.e. moral) we need an objective goodness evaluator. Theists say the only possible candidate for that position is a Supreme Being. So if the SB creates suffering, it's automatically good - when he creates it. Atheist have an alternative, but they haven't figured it out. I don't want to get into that with you.

If the SB is the arbiter of good, he certainly wouldn't judge himself to be bad. So either the SB is good by definition, or above good vs. bad. A problem arises when a created being calls some particular behavior objectively good (or bad). He is either claiming to know what the SB likes, or he has another criterion for objective goodness (human survival, welfare, happiness, whatever).

Unfortunately, all created free-will beings who live in community must either:
1. claim to know what the objective evaluator likes or what the objective goodness criterion is.
or
2. assume might makes right. i.e. Whoever has the power to enforce his will on the community gets to define morality any way he wants.
or
3. assume moral nihilism. i.e. There is no objective morality.

Most people prefer #1, and either claim to know what the SB likes because of some particular scripture package, or claim to know what is good by some common sense definition, which is unfortunately yet to be articulated.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
An interesting perspective I have never considered.

A side effect is that it treats us as mere unfeeling machines, without regard for the effects of pain, suffering, and evil, except for its positive benefits (for those who survive the pain and suffering and evil, those for whom it is not fatal).
and I compare Day Six of Genesis to evolution
and Chapter Two as a separate event

we were indeed that animal with no more feeling than snatching what we needed
from anything or anyone

and killing was not out of the question.....
we didn't seem to think it was all that bad
natural really

and God resting through the Seventh Day could see......
Man would overrun the earth and resources BEFORE the spirit within could gel
a correction had to be made

Chapter Two.........................
 
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