Angelogical/Demonological Fallacies

zombieharlot said:

Are Satan and Lucifer, in fact, the same being?

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It's not clearly understood if you ask me.

Rejected said:

Im sorry.

I just relized that I was about to start an argument that demands proof and reason.

I'll stop.

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I have plenty of that, but I'm just really not interested in arguing because there's no point in it. I've learned the hard way that there's no sense in trying to convince anyone of anything they aren't ready or willing to accept. People believe what they want to believe and if their hearts and minds are open to the truth, great. If not, oh well.

Fair enough. I guess I feel the same way, only onthe other side of the argument.
I try not to go on the offensive but sometimes my mouth (or hands) get started before my head does.
I agree, there is no point in it. Its like hammering your head against the wall, and I get sick of it after a while. I guess we just have differeing views of the "truth."

Anyway, nice to have you on the forums.

Rejected said:

This implies that God does not love everyone but is selective in whom he lets into heaven, kind of like a six year old trying to decide who to invite to a birthday party.

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I definitely see where you are coming from. I'll try to explain this to the best of my knowledge.

It all boils down to free will and God honoring your decisions. Heaven is for people who want to be with God and enjoy a relationship with him (which does not entail joining a church and buying into dogmas). Hell is for people who hate God and want nothing to do with him. God lets you decide what you want to do and honors your decision. Thus why we have Hell.

Numbers don't matter. Those who want to go with God will and those that don't will not. The motive for Satan is to show God that people don't need him to find fufillment and happiness.

God doesn't need us for anything. God does not need us to praise him. But he desires it. He gave us the gift of life. And just like when you give someone a gift you appreciate and enjoy the gratitude even though you don't need the gratitude and you gave the gift with no strings attatched. Whether or not you want to keep the gift is up to you.

MidnightBlue said:

How does he focus his attention on all those people at once?

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Please don't twist my words to say something I neither said nor intended to say.

MidnightBlue said:

Is he omniscient and omnipresent?

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No.

Sasa said:

One major thing I've learned about God and the Spiritual War is that there's no sitting on the fence. Either you're on God's side or you're on Satan's side.

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I'm guessing we will probably be in disagreement as to where that fence lies.

Mister_T said:

I'm guessing we will probably be in disagreement as to where that fence lies.

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I'm not sure what you mean by that. Could you expand a little?

Sasa said:

What I mean is that I'm not wrong. Satan most certainly is Lucifer (The Dragon, The Serpent, etc.) and his given name was Dawn which is the same as "Morning Star". You're believing in myths and misinterpretations not truth.

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I'm not understanding your position.

Revelation of Jesus Christ 22:16 said:

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

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Please, if you will be so kind, explain the myth i am believing in here?

Book of Job 1:12 said:

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

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Here we see Satan being given a command by God, to go forth and test Job. And God also gives Satan another command, not to harm Job himself, which Satan obeys without question. Again Minister, please explain to me the false myth i am reading here.

Also, this war of yours; how many angels does Satan have and how many God?

How are we involved in this war?

What happens if Satan wins?

Mister_T said:

I definitely see where you are coming from. I'll try to explain this to the best of my knowledge.

It all boils down to free will and God honoring your decisions. Heaven is for people who want to be with God and enjoy a relationship with him (which does not entail joining a church and buying into dogmas). Hell is for people who hate God and want nothing to do with him. God lets you decide what you want to do and honors your decision. Thus why we have Hell.

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You're making it sound like trying to decise in which neighborhood you want to but a house. If thats the difference between heaven and hell then whats the big deal? I don't like picking up pine cones all the time so I don't buy the house wth pine trees in the front yard.

But there is a difference for the Christian mythos. Hell is just that, Hell. Its not simply a different section of astral real esate. It is unbearable pain and suffering, despair, and gnashing of teeth. Isn't that right?

God lets me choose and honors my descision, but if I make the wrong one I will live in eternal torment? Thats not very fair, is it?

If I live a good, moral life, I don't break the law, I do good works, I love those around me to the best of my abilities, but I reject the notion of a God and I go to Hell? It justs seems a little juvenile; like a spoiled child who gets angry when someone does not shower him with attention.

These are characteistics that I will not attribute to God.

Mister_T said:

Numbers don't matter. Those who want to go with God will and those that don't will not. The motive for Satan is to show God that people don't need him to find fufillment and happiness.

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Doesn't sound like such an awful motive to me. Self-sufficiency was something I was taught to strive for.

Mister_T said:

God doesn't need us for anything. God does not need us to praise him. But he desires it. He gave us the gift of life. And just like when you give someone a gift you appreciate and enjoy the gratitude even though you don't need the gratitude and you gave the gift with no strings attatched. Whether or not you want to keep the gift is up to you.

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But desire denotes some sort of deficiency, something that is less than whole. Again, imperfect, for if God were perfect then he would desire nothing, he would need nothing.

Halcyon said:

What happens if Satan wins?

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He won't.

Sasa said:

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Could you expand a little?

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I thought you were trying to get at something with that post. Feel free to disregard as it was my own imagination

Halcyon said:

Also, this war of yours; how many angels does Satan have and how many God?

How are we involved in this war?

What happens if Satan wins?

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I'll answer those questions of yours that aren't leading in nature since I've already stated that I'm not going to argue.

First of all, this war isn't "my war". I don't know the exact number of how many angels are on each side. All I know is that there are millions upon millions on both sides.

How are we involved? The answer is that not everyone is. The Spiritual War has four rungs - like rungs of a ladder. Mankind is on the fourth rung. The majority of mankind is caught in the middle of a war being fought from the Spirit Realm. The Holy sides's first three parts of the ladder assist Christ's servants from each rung. As their ministers (such as myself and other ministers of our ministry) spread the Gospel's Truth concerning the Truth of the Kingdom, they are centered on by Satan and his forces. But all the way up the ladder to God, they are closely watched over as they pursue their ministries.

If Satan were to win it would mean that what God decreed to us as truth in the outcome of this Spiritual War, is a lie. God would not accept that. Heaven and earth would pass away. I'll end this by saying that everything in the Scriptures points to Satan losing the war and I have absolutely no reason to believe that he would win.

Sasa said:

I'll answer those questions of yours that aren't leading in nature since I've already stated that I'm not going to argue.

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Leading? How were my questions leading? All i did was quote scripture and asked why my understanding was wrong?

Sasa said:

How are we involved? The answer is that not everyone is. The Spiritual War has four rungs - like rungs of a ladder. Mankind is on the fourth rung. The majority of mankind is caught in the middle of a war being fought from the Spirit Realm. The Holy sides's first three parts of the ladder assist Christ's servants from each rung. As their ministers (such as myself and other ministers of our ministry) spread the Gospel's Truth concerning the Truth of the Kingdom, they are centered on by Satan and his forces. But all the way up the ladder to God, they are closely watched over as they pursue their ministries.

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And how do you know all this?

Rejected said:

You're making it sound like trying to decise in which neighborhood you want to but a house. If thats the difference between heaven and hell then whats the big deal? I don't like picking up pine cones all the time so I don't buy the house wth pine trees in the front yard.

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The big deal is that you have to live in the house that you pick. God can only tell you which house is the best. He's not going to make you live there.

Rejected said:

But there is a difference for the Christian mythos. Hell is just that, Hell. Its not simply a different section of astral real esate. It is unbearable pain and suffering, despair, and gnashing of teeth. Isn't that right?

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For some it could be eternal torment and suffering. For whom that is reserved for I don't know. There is no way for anyone of us to know/decide who goes where and what they ultimatley deserve.

Rejected said:

God lets me choose and honors my descision, but if I make the wrong one I will live in eternal torment? Thats not very fair, is it?

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Who says that you're making the wrong one? What exactley is the wrong one?

Rejected said:

If I live a good, moral life, I don't break the law, I do good works, I love those around me to the best of my abilities, but I reject the notion of a God and I go to Hell? It justs seems a little juvenile; like a spoiled child who gets angry when someone does not shower him with attention.

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I agree 100%.

That's not the way God works. You're buying into religious dogma about God.

Those things you mentioned; loving others, doing good works; that's what God is all about.

You don't get into Heaven soley on confession of belief. That concept is not at all biblical.

Rejected said:

These are characteistics that I will not attribute to God.

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Good. You shouldn't.

Rejected said:

Doesn't sound like such an awful motive to me. Self-sufficiency was something I was taught to strive for

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Nothing wrong with self suffinciency. It's when "self" takes precedence over everything else. Even if it's at the expense of others. Which is what Satan is all about: "Who cares if I do bad things and hurt others in the process. As long as I get my needs and pleasures fulfilled, I don't care." Me, me, me.

When you lead a life based only on self-pleasure and you only care about yourself, you become your own God. That is all you love. That's not what God's kingdom is about.

Rejected said:

But desire denotes some sort of deficiency, something that is less than whole. Again, imperfect, for if God were perfect then he would desire nothing, he would need nothing

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You're confusing need and desire. They are 2 completley different things. God doesn't need anything from us.

If you crazy in love with someone wouldn't that bring a smile to your face if they appriciated you and loved you back? Prove to me how such a trait is imperfect.

To have no feeling at all would be amoral. God is all about love.

Besides, how can imperfect beings such as ourselves, possibly know what is perfect?

rejected said:

Ok.

1) Satan is a renegade angel.

Is he trying to turn people away from god out of Spite? What are the motives here for both sides? What happens if Satan gets a higher score at the end of the game? Does God just want more people to make it into heaven to adore a glorify him? If God needs humans to praise him and keep him company then he would not be perfect, for a perfect being would need nothing.

2) Satan is a servant of god acting to "test" the faithful. (In law enforcement this is called “entrapment.”)

This implies that God does not love everyone but is selective in whom he lets into heaven, kind of like a six year old trying to decide who to invite to a birthday party.

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Sasa said:

Wow... you're so way off base I'm not even touching that one.

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That's unfortunate, because I was assuming rejected had made some errors and was looking forward to reading whatever corrections you had to offer.

Booko said:

That's unfortunate, because I was assuming rejected had made some errors and was looking forward to reading whatever corrections you had to offer.

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I'm sorry to dissappoint, but I've been instructed that it's not my job to convince or twist arms; only to share the Truth. All I can do is pray for those who are unaccepting of the truth that their eyes and hearts will be opened to it.

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town." Matthew 10:14

"If they do not welcome you, when you leave that town, shake off the dust from your feet as a testimony against them." Luke 9:5

Jesus didn't try to convince or twist arms. In fact, he did the opposite. He said what he had to say and if people rejected what he said, he shook the dust from his feet as a testament against them and moved on. When they accused him of being with Satan, when they tossed him out of Temples, towns and cities, he didn't fight back. He let everyone decide for themselves and that is what I try to do as well.

In our positions in the Spiritual War, the other ministers and I are being watched very closely and we must follow Christ's teachings and walk in his footsteps to set an example for others if we have have any hope of making it to Christ's Kingdom ouselves.

Sasa, how exactly is psychic channeling congruent with Christianity? Isn't it the same thing as communicating with demons?

this thread reminds me of that guy who posted and said he was an angel and could remember being in heaven

PureX said:

And in most stories and myths involving "satan" he is not allowed to lie to us, but instead can only conveniently leave out specific information that we don't ask for and that allows us to draw the conclusion that we desired to draw all along.

Stories about people being "decieved by satan" are meant to teach us about how we have decieved ourselves. "Satan" is us. "Satan" is that part of us that wants to do what we know is wrong, and so we trick ourselves into imagining that we were tricked by someone else: by some external spirit called "satan". But in truth the "spirit" is our own. It's WE who desire to do the evil deed. And it's we who will "trick" ourselves into believing that it's OK to do so.

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I agree with you to an extent, though I believe demons exist. But if you look at the first sin, the serpent did not lie. He simply told Eve she would be like God if she ate of the tree. And she was. Like God, she was then able to see good AND evil.