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Is the bible historically accurate?

noob

Member
To Midnight Blue:

and equally disinclined to play the game of proof and counterproof, which always ends up with some Christian "proving" the gospels by suggesting that Peter betrayed Jesus not three times but six

You have no arguement if you cannot cite your own references.
I do not suggest that Peter betrayed Jesus six times.
Your lack of willingness to cite, only reveals the weakness of your own arguement.

most of which make unconvincing attempt to show that the discrepancies and contradictions can be reconciled

You should also cite these unconvincing attempts..
And if they are unconvincing that would be opinionated by your own bias. Not factual.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
MidnightBlue said:
Those who forged the pseudo-Pauline epistles and the pseudo-Petrine epistles can hardly be said to have done so "honestly."

The authors of the gospels and Acts may have had more honest intentions, but that supposition doesn't do anything to add to their credibility as historical sources.

You forget that plagiarism, as we know it today, is a very different animal from what the Biblical writers were doing. In that time, when someone wrote under the name of another, he was a student or close colleague of the namesake. It was common practice then to use the names of well-known teachers, so that their work could continue. The practice was not meant to deceive, but to ascribe validity to what was being written. It was an honorable, not a dishonorable act.

They're the best we've got, though. And it's no better scholarship to assume that they were not credible...
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
JerryL said:
A wild-***-guess on my part:

Peter was a pacifist / reformer who created a sect of Judaism. In order to grant validity to the new order, he claimed it was from God; and in order to avoid being stoned for herecy he claimed to be repeating his (convineiently dead) teacher's lessons.

John was either a cohort or an early and opinionated deciple.

Paul comes along signifigantly later and takes over. He has his own opinions about how the church should run (why he has Timothy write his own version of the gospel).

I suspect that Peter drey from many sources in writing Jesus. Certainly some of the gospel accounts are almost word-for-word from Ezekiel. The story of walking on the water is unusually similar to Jonah, the character is surprisingly similar to an earlier Yeshua (who was hung from a tree, as psalms accidently says about Jesus). And the general resurrection myth was common at the time.

Certainly, it would not have been a change from how the bulk of what is now the BIble was written. The Jews likely came from the Hittites, and the Bible has them destroied by order of God and the Jews coming from Egypt. When the Persians conquer the Babylonians and the Zoroastrian dualists start visiting, the Jews suddenly have Shatan (he who opposes) in the form of a serpent, patron symbol of Babyon.

Neither of these has been established as an author of any Biblical text.

I Thessalonians was written ca. 50 c.e. -- less than 20 years after the crucifixion. I don't find that to be significantly" later. Why should "his own opinion" be treated as dishonest?

Again, please show how the writers' intentions were anything less than honest.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
MidnightBlue said:
How likely is it that a mythological brother was created for James during James' own lifetime, without any of his contemporaries catching on?

Daddy said:
About 50/50

MidnightBlue said:

Because early Christianity was fairly widespread, they spoke of eachother using familial terms like "brother" and "father." A person constantly refered to as a brother could be mistaken for an actual family member. Many names were fairly common. On top of this, many churches may not have known about one another, making it difficult for some churches to actually verify information.

Take a common name of an actual person reffered to as a "brother" of James who is of high status in the community. Viola - a mythological spiritual authority.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
noob said:
You have no arguement if you cannot cite your own references.
I do not suggest that Peter betrayed Jesus six times.
Your lack of willingness to cite, only reveals the weakness of your own arguement.

Midnight is simply reviewing logical consistency in an argument and does not need further evidence.

There is nothing for him to cite.:rolleyes:
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
sojourner said:
You forget that plagiarism, as we know it today, is a very different animal from what the Biblical writers were doing. In that time, when someone wrote under the name of another, he was a student or close colleague of the namesake. It was common practice then to use the names of well-known teachers, so that their work could continue. The practice was not meant to deceive, but to ascribe validity to what was being written. It was an honorable, not a dishonorable act.

They're the best we've got, though. And it's no better scholarship to assume that they were not credible...

Dude, I am colorblind.

Are you writing in white?
 

may

Well-Known Member
i like the way that the bible gives us the genealogy of Jesus right back to the first man Adam.
The Biblical record of Jesus’ genealogy remains in the Bible as part of the foundation of our faith and as a testimony to the sureness of the word and promises of God.
None of Jesus’ enemies among the Jews ever challenged his descent from David, either on the side of his mother or of his foster-father.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
may said:
i like the way that the bible gives us the geanelogy of Jesus right back to the first man Adam.

More than that - the Bible gives two genealogies of Jesus. What more can we ask for than two different genealogies.:rolleyes:

That's not good evidence for reliable historicity.:p
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
TEXT WHICH CHANGES BETWEEN (BAD) COLORS RANDOMLY IS EVEN MORE ANNOYING THAN ALL-CAPS IN A LARGE FONT. PLEASE STOP THAT!

Neither of these has been established as an author of any Biblical text.
1) I mentioned Peter, John, and Paul. "Three" and "Neither" seems to be ratehr poor grammer. Since I doubt this was a typo, I am confused by it.


2) I did not say that they wrote gospels, though I am discussing the influences of the writers in direct response to a question given.

3) My uderstanding is that John was written by John (or a close follower), Mark was written by a deciple of Peter and repeated his teachings, and Luke wwas written by Timothy, author of Acts and deciple of Paul.

I Thessalonians was written ca. 50 c.e. -- less than 20 years after the crucifixion. I don't find that to be significantly" later. Why should "his own opinion" be treated as dishonest?
So Brittney spears does not appear on the scene "signifigantly later" than Jimmy Hendrix?


Again, please show how the writers' intentions were anything less than honest.
Show how they were determined honest.

Seriously: Do you know what "guess" means?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
JerryL said:
TEXT WHICH CHANGES BETWEEN (BAD) COLORS RANDOMLY IS EVEN MORE ANNOYING THAN ALL-CAPS IN A LARGE FONT. PLEASE STOP THAT!


An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

So Brittney spears does not appear on the scene "signifigantly later" than Jimmy Hendrix?


:eek:
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
and Acts -- indisputably from the hand of a Pauline Christian -- takes great pains to portray Paul as submissive to James

Yet, scholars think it unlikely that that the author of Luke-Acts was an intimate of Paul.

Paul is anti-sex, where the other gospels are not. Paul is anti-marriage where the other gospels are not.

That's because Paul believes in an imminent parousia -- there would be no reason for the followers to "waste time" getting married, when the end is so near. They should be spending their time and energy preaching the good news.

[QUOTEI agree with the general tennor here, that Paul was the outsider that came in to make a revised version of Christanity with himself at it's head. Rather like King Henry with the Anglican church, or John Smith and Mormonism.[/QUOTE]

Paul had been a Pharisaical Jew. That places him in the mainstream of Judaism of the time. He did champion the cause of Gentile inclusion in the new movement, in opposition to the Church in Jerusalem, who held that one must be a Jew before one could be a Christian. That championing in no way indicates that Paul was undermining Xy, or that he was "revising" Xy, or that he in any way usurped the authority of the other apostles.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
That's because Paul believes in an imminent parousia -- there would be no reason for the followers to "waste time" getting married, when the end is so near. They should be spending their time and energy preaching the good news.

But he taught people to marry.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
angellous_evangellous said:
That's because Paul believes in an imminent parousia -- there would be no reason for the followers to "waste time" getting married, when the end is so near. They should be spending their time and energy preaching the good news.

But he taught people to marry.

Yes, if they felt they must. But he said it is better for them to remain celebate.
 

Smoke

Done here.
noob said:
You have no arguement if you cannot cite your own references.
I'd think anybody who was at all familiar with the Bible would be aware of some of the discrepancies, and anybody who wants to pursue this has plenty of opportunity to read about it. This issue ought to be well-known to everybody who has any interest in it.

However, while I'm not about to write a book -- which would be the result if I tried to cover everything -- I can give a couple examples.

First we can look at the genealogies of Jesus. Anybody who has even a passing familiarity with the gospels knows that Matthew and Luke offer two different genealogies of Jesus, both traced through Joseph. We'll lay aside the question of whether Joseph's ancestry has any relevance, since both of these authors say Jesus was born of a virgin. Here's a chart showing Joseph's male-line descent from Abraham, according to each author. It's not a nice chart, but I don't plan to spend all day on this.

View attachment jesusgen.jpg

The discrepancies are obvious. Now, any Bible student worth his salt has read at least one or two explanations of these discrepancies; the most popular of which is that Luke is actually giving Mary's genealogy -- never mind that the "explanation" flatly contradicts Luke. Other explanations propose symbolic readings or levirate marriages, but the obvious fact remains that one or both genealogies must be inaccurate.

Then there are Matthew's "generations:"
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
There are at least two problems with this: (1) There are not, in fact, forty-two generations listed in Matthew's genealogy, and (2) Matthew drops several generations that are listed in the Old Testament. Here's a chart showing those discrepancies -- and this time I haven't bothered to make my own, but have lifted the chart from The Skeptic's Annotated Bible.

View attachment jesusgen2.jpg

There are other problems with the genealogies, but let's let it go at that. Apologists, of course, have come up with all kinds of explanations for the discrepancies, some of them rather ingenious, but none of them very convincing. But let's just say that some of these explanations are actually true. They certainly can't be proven to be true; there's no evidence that they're true, but let's say for the sake of argument that they're true. That would mean that in order to have an accurate understanding of the genealogy of Joseph, we would have to have Matthew plus Luke plus the contrived explanations. Nobody could possibly have an accurate understanding if all he had was a copy of Matthew, or a copy of Luke, so each account, as written, is useless and/or misleading. If you were to write a biography of Bill Clinton, and insert a genealogy claiming, without further explanation, that Bill Clinton was the son of Roger Clinton, who was the son of Al Clinton, who was the son of James Clinton, "explanations" could be offered, but genealogists and historians alike would still denounce you as incompetent or dishonest.

For our second example, let's look at Peter's betrayal of Jesus.

In the synoptics, Jesus makes a prediction that Peter will deny him three times, either before the **** crows (Matthew & Luke) or before the **** crows twice (Mark). John doesn't mention a prediction. Each gospel lists three denials of Jesus by Peter.

Matthew:
Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee. Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the **** crew. And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.​
Mark:
And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest: And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth. But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the **** crew. And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them. And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto. But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak. And the second time the **** crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the **** crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.​
Luke:
And when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the hall, and were set down together, Peter sat down among them. But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him. And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not. And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not. And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean. And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the **** crew. And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.
John:
Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not. [...]
And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am not. One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him? Peter then denied again: and immediately the **** crew.
The gist of these accounts is the same, but the details can't be reconciled. No big deal. But rather than just admit that, biblical inerrantists feel the need to explain away the discrepancies to preserve the notion that the Bible is accurate in all its details. It's pointless and it's intellectually dishonest.

Literally hundreds of discrepancies could be listed, and whole books could be (and have been) written on the subject. And that's just the discrepancies between the canonical accounts, without mentioning other inaccuracies like this arrant nonsense:
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) to be taxed [...]​
 

may

Well-Known Member
How do we know that the record of Jesus’ line of descent is accurate? Because those records that appear in Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38 agreed with (and were likely taken from) the official public registers of that day, which were open to all to examine. This explains why the learned men of the Jews, the scribes and Pharisees and the Sadducees, who bitterly opposed Jesus, never uttered one breath of challenge of this genealogy.
 

Smoke

Done here.
sojourner said:
You forget that plagiarism, as we know it today, is a very different animal from what the Biblical writers were doing. In that time, when someone wrote under the name of another, he was a student or close colleague of the namesake. It was common practice then to use the names of well-known teachers, so that their work could continue. The practice was not meant to deceive, but to ascribe validity to what was being written. It was an honorable, not a dishonorable act.
Forgery, not plagiarism -- but anyway, that's a common misconception. I don't have time for a lengthy reply, but briefly:

1) Forgery was common in ancient times, but the ancients were concerned about forgery, and denounced forgeries when they were aware of them. See Burton Mack, Who Wrote the New Testament?: The Making of the Christian Myth.

2) One of the criteria used when the canon was established was the apostolic origin of each book. The epistles of Peter and Paul were included in the canon precisely because they were thought to have been written by Peter and Paul, and not because they were thought to "continue the work" of Peter and Paul. The Petrine epistles and the pseudo-Pauline epistles, then, were admitted to the canon on false pretenses.
 

Smoke

Done here.
may said:
How do we know that the record of Jesus’ line of descent is accurate? Because those records that appear in Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38 agreed with (and were likely taken from) the official public registers of that day, which were open to all to examine. This explains why the learned men of the Jews, the scribes and Pharisees and the Sadducees, who bitterly opposed Jesus, never uttered one breath of challenge of this genealogy.
What's your basis for saying so? Can you document that such official public registers existed and were open to all to examine?

Even if you could, the fact remains that the discrepancies are there. It doesn't matter whether the authors were unreliable themselves, or relied on unreliable sources.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Genelogies for Christ are absurd also from the viewpoint that he supposedly was born of a virgin, which means he didn't come thru the line of Joesph.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
logician said:
Genelogies for Christ are absurd also from the viewpoint that he supposedly was born of a virgin, which means he didn't come thru the line of Joesph.

You know if you have nothing of use to contribute to the conversation, then don't.

Yes, the Bible may be historically inaccurate at parts, but that does not mean it is of no worth. The Bible is mainly a spiritual guid, not a history book.
 
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