Is life easier for Psychopaths?

There is something psychopathic about our culture and society.

Think about it. When we go to watch a film, the subject matter includes a hefty amount of violence, criminality, extreme-risk taking, deception and physical or sexual abuse. We have a celebrity culture based on the ability of people to outrage or shock us to get attention, often resulting in self-destructive behaviour involving drugs, alcohol or sexual abuse, or else huge levels of exploitation by the media and society to turn people into objects of fascination with no respect for personal integrity or boundaries. We have an economic and political system that's build on the assumption of amoral selfishness, treating violating standards of "normal" behaviour or even the law as a cost-benefit analysis of "can I get away with it?". Elections are won or lost based, not on principle or ability, but on charisma and personality, or "superficial charm". Advertising is based on making a degree of deception an integral part of our culture based on emotionally manipulating people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. People's personal information is harvested in order to find out the things they won't tell you to better understand and manipulate them to behave in ways that suit the interests of elites to increase their money and power over us. We are obsessed with money and wanting more and are actively encouraged to treat consumption as a highly prized valued in its own right, irrespective of its effect on people or the environment. Our understanding of freedom increasingly verges on the libertine as we lay waste to conservative morals, traditions and institutions out of a desire to make money and pursue happiness, more often than not as instant gratification than as the more profound enduring happiness most of us seek. On an everyday basis, our morality works, but when you look at the big picture- the anomalies add up. We are alot less sane than we'd like to think we are.

There are occasional moments when I almost envy the level of dis-inhibition people can show. In small doses, a little bit of psychopathy means you can take risks and seize opportunities rather than putting other people first. It makes life look a lot easier not having to feel conflicted, worried about consequences, or offending people [though the reality may be much more complicated.] It can be quite fun to not feel held back by all the restrictions we face and its well known that a big dose of "confidence" (or narcassism) can be attractive and sexy- at least until the morning after when they've got out the bedroom and you realise they used you.

So I'm left with roughly three possibilities.

One. Maybe I'm just imagining things. its just me and its the depression talking. I'd like my life to be a bit more fulfilling and I'm a bit envious that "successful" people seem to put a lot less thought into the consequences of their actions than I do and get rewarded for it. maybe I just overthink. there's room for improvement if I let go a bit more but I don't need to shut down my empathy entirely.

Two. Psychopathy is genuinely an advantage in our society and make up a disproportionate fraction of the ruling class. We reward people for taking risks, having high levels of dis-inhibition, and out-right lying to people with money, power, fame, etc. They get the fast car, sink the luxury yacht to claim the insurance, break the law and have an army of lawyers to cover their ***. We really don't have to spend time feeling awkward with work colleagues at the office party, or with distant family members at Christmas who you wish would just die and could get their inheritance. its not an obligation- screw them all. Nice guys finish last and bad boys get the girl. Over. and Over. Again.

Three. Psychopaths don't have an advantage but we've created an expectation that they would because our media and morality are so out of sync with reality. We live in a fantasy world where we are told any dream is possible (like a psychopath) but the reality is much more frustrating and limiting. Criminals go to jail. They are forced to pay for their crimes. But we are fascinated by it and attracted to it because we have a system that values material gain over morality or even our sanity. Are we really all that frustrated with our own personal lives that we'd idealise dangerous people?

Can you relate to this? Are there moments when wish you could just switch off your empathy, lie in order to have sex with that really attractive person who you're never going to see again, or just hit that ******* that really deserves a trip to hospital?

Basically- Why does doing the "right" thing make us so miserable?

Help me out here.

Can you explain the connection you are making between amoral and psychopathic?

Tumah said:

Can you explain the connection you are making between amoral and psychopathic?

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Psychopaths have a higher than average predisposition to "amorality" than the rest of us as they lack the capacity for empathy and dis-inhibition. psychopathy itself makes people "amoral" rather than "immoral" though. it isn't automatic that a psychopath is necessarily dangerous or criminal.

I used to be a psychopath. I tortured and killed small animals and wanted to be a serial killer. I had only hatred and delighted in others suffering. Now I'm deeply compassionate and want to relieve suffering in our world. Miracles happen.

No, being a psychopath was a living hell and full of torment!

This is a really cool topic. One of my favorite bands wrote a song about it. I will spoil the lyrics in case they're offensive. It basically says we use violence and such on TV as a means of living something from a safe distance.


I don't think people realize that some of us can't even really handle violence or tragedy. Reminds me I was watching a cooking show and a girl almost bawling at cooking a lobster. I'm not that bad and I can handle fiction gore and blood and guts but when I was reading a story today about a family getting lost in the flood waters of Harvey I couldn't really handle the story. I think over time perhaps we can get desensitized, maybe we get jaded, life becomes too much and we start becoming bitter and cynical. I totally agree with your assessment on psychopaths not having feelings. I do feel envious sometimes because I worry about people and the world to no avail. It doesn't bother me most of the time though but it is empathy that does allow us to live vicariously like the song I mentioned which we probably all do to some extent whether it's through movies or video games. There is an entertainment value to being able to feel various experiences from a good safe distance but we don't have the same levels of empathy apparently. Some people, for example can lie a lot more easily without feeling any sort of guilt or remorse which can easily be used to take advantage of any system. Our system is even built on foundations of trust, we rely on people to tell the absolute truth, so help them god, in court which is sorta laughable when considering the realities. I don't know if society is psycho but it's certainly not afraid to be self deluded and that's some of my biggest peeves willful ignorance and purposeful misinformation.

PopeADope said:

I used to be a psychopath. I tortured and killed small animals and wanted to be a serial killer. I had only hatred and delighted in others suffering. Now I'm deeply compassionate and want to relieve suffering in our world. Miracles happen.

No, being a psychopath was a living hell and full of torment!

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As far as this thread is concerned, that's pretty definitive. I'll take your word for it.

idav said:

I don't think people realize that some of us can't even really handle violence or tragedy. Reminds me I was watching a cooking show and a girl almost bawling at cooking a lobster. I'm not that bad and I can handle fiction gore and blood and guts but when I was reading a story today about a family getting lost in the flood waters of Harvey I couldn't really handle the story. I think over time perhaps we can get desensitized, maybe we get jaded, life becomes too much and we start becoming bitter and cynical. I totally agree with your assessment on psychopaths not having feelings. I do feel envious sometimes because I worry about people and the world to no avail. It doesn't bother me most of the time though but it is empathy that does allow us to live vicariously like the song I mentioned which we probably all do to some extent whether it's through movies or video games. There is an entertainment value to being able to feel various experiences from a good safe distance but we don't have the same levels of empathy apparently. Some people, for example can lie a lot more easily without feeling any sort of guilt or remorse which can easily be used to take advantage of any system. Our system is even built on foundations of trust, we rely on people to tell the absolute truth, so help them god, in court which is sorta laughable when considering the realities. I don't know if society is psycho but it's certainly not afraid to be self deluded and that's some of my biggest peeves willful ignorance and purposeful misinformation.

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Yeah. I'm with you on the caring too much about people getting hurt. its such a downer. there aren't obvious ways to deal with it.

You are correct @Laika, the world is indeed the way you describe it.
For people like myself it is what I call high contrast.
I am opposed to every aspect of what is considered by most as normal.
It is also a great opportunity to grow.
This is the hardest thing for me to learn.

Laika said:

There is something psychopathic about our culture and society.

Think about it. When we go to watch a film, the subject matter includes a hefty amount of violence, criminality, extreme-risk taking, deception and physical or sexual abuse. We have a celebrity culture based on the ability of people to outrage or shock us to get attention, often resulting in self-destructive behaviour involving drugs, alcohol or sexual abuse, or else huge levels of exploitation by the media and society to turn people into objects of fascination with no respect for personal integrity or boundaries. We have an economic and political system that's build on the assumption of amoral selfishness, treating violating standards of "normal" behaviour or even the law as a cost-benefit analysis of "can I get away with it?". Elections are won or lost based, not on principle or ability, but on charisma and personality, or "superficial charm". Advertising is based on making a degree of deception an integral part of our culture based on emotionally manipulating people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. People's personal information is harvested in order to find out the things they won't tell you to better understand and manipulate them to behave in ways that suit the interests of elites to increase their money and power over us. We are obsessed with money and wanting more and are actively encouraged to treat consumption as a highly prized valued in its own right, irrespective of its effect on people or the environment. Our understanding of freedom increasingly verges on the libertine as we lay waste to conservative morals, traditions and institutions out of a desire to make money and pursue happiness, more often than not as instant gratification than as the more profound enduring happiness most of us seek. On an everyday basis, our morality works, but when you look at the big picture- the anomalies add up. We are alot less sane than we'd like to think we are.

There are occasional moments when I almost envy the level of dis-inhibition people can show. In small doses, a little bit of psychopathy means you can take risks and seize opportunities rather than putting other people first. It makes life look a lot easier not having to feel conflicted, worried about consequences, or offending people [though the reality may be much more complicated.] It can be quite fun to not feel held back by all the restrictions we face and its well known that a big dose of "confidence" (or narcassism) can be attractive and sexy- at least until the morning after when they've got out the bedroom and you realise they used you.

So I'm left with roughly three possibilities.

One. Maybe I'm just imagining things. its just me and its the depression talking. I'd like my life to be a bit more fulfilling and I'm a bit envious that "successful" people seem to put a lot less thought into the consequences of their actions than I do and get rewarded for it. maybe I just overthink. there's room for improvement if I let go a bit more but I don't need to shut down my empathy entirely.

Two. Psychopathy is genuinely an advantage in our society and make up a disproportionate fraction of the ruling class. We reward people for taking risks, having high levels of dis-inhibition, and out-right lying to people with money, power, fame, etc. They get the fast car, sink the luxury yacht to claim the insurance, break the law and have an army of lawyers to cover their ***. We really don't have to spend time feeling awkward with work colleagues at the office party, or with distant family members at Christmas who you wish would just die and could get their inheritance. its not an obligation- screw them all. Nice guys finish last and bad boys get the girl. Over. and Over. Again.

Three. Psychopaths don't have an advantage but we've created an expectation that they would because our media and morality are so out of sync with reality. We live in a fantasy world where we are told any dream is possible (like a psychopath) but the reality is much more frustrating and limiting. Criminals go to jail. They are forced to pay for their crimes. But we are fascinated by it and attracted to it because we have a system that values material gain over morality or even our sanity. Are we really all that frustrated with our own personal lives that we'd idealise dangerous people?

Can you relate to this? Are there moments when wish you could just switch off your empathy, lie in order to have sex with that really attractive person who you're never going to see again, or just hit that ******* that really deserves a trip to hospital?

Basically- Why does doing the "right" thing make us so miserable?

Help me out here.

Click to expand...

I hear ya, Laika. I understand what you're getting at. I look back on my own life, my own experiences, people I've met, behaviors I've observed - as well as my study of society as a whole and our history. Oftentimes, humans do seem pretty crazy, dangerous, and psychopathic. And it's also true that very often, the bad guys do win.

But that's different from what we are often taught, raised, and conditioned to believe: "The good guys always win. Good will always prevail over evil." Religion teaches that, and it's been a recurring theme in our culture for centuries. So, when the opposite seems to happen, where evil appears to prevail over good, then it may produce some sort of jolt to the system where we respond: "Hey wait, that's not supposed to happen!"

On the other hand, despite what we're initially taught, we sometimes want to rebel and allow ourselves to be "seduced by the dark side." Some people become fascinated with gang culture or organized crime - and such themes are enormously popular in TV, movies - both fiction and non-fiction. I used to date someone who was a psychology major, and she had a real morbid fascination with serial killers. I always thought that was kind of weird.

For me, I've gotten to the point where the only person I really need to answer to is myself. I don't worry so much about what other people do. It doesn't mean I don't care, but I don't worry about it, since there's nothing I can really do.

For whatever reason, there are some people who take greater risks, turning off their empathy or "conscience" or whatever one wants to call it - and is able to get away with it or even profit by it. Many others are more risk-averse and try to take the safer path of following the rules, obeying the law, and conforming to the customs and traditions of "civilized" society. If you take a risk, you're rolling the dice, and you have to accept that you might sometimes roll craps.

That may be what is also frustrating, since so many people take all these risks and then cry foul if they're told they have to accept the consequences of their actions.

Stevicus said:

I hear ya, Laika. I understand what you're getting at. I look back on my own life, my own experiences, people I've met, behaviors I've observed - as well as my study of society as a whole and our history. Oftentimes, humans do seem pretty crazy, dangerous, and psychopathic. And it's also true that very often, the bad guys do win.

But that's different from what we are often taught, raised, and conditioned to believe: "The good guys always win. Good will always prevail over evil." Religion teaches that, and it's been a recurring theme in our culture for centuries. So, when the opposite seems to happen, where evil appears to prevail over good, then it may produce some sort of jolt to the system where we respond: "Hey wait, that's not supposed to happen!"

On the other hand, despite what we're initially taught, we sometimes want to rebel and allow ourselves to be "seduced by the dark side." Some people become fascinated with gang culture or organized crime - and such themes are enormously popular in TV, movies - both fiction and non-fiction. I used to date someone who was a psychology major, and she had a real morbid fascination with serial killers. I always thought that was kind of weird.

For me, I've gotten to the point where the only person I really need to answer to is myself. I don't worry so much about what other people do. It doesn't mean I don't care, but I don't worry about it, since there's nothing I can really do.

For whatever reason, there are some people who take greater risks, turning off their empathy or "conscience" or whatever one wants to call it - and is able to get away with it or even profit by it. Many others are more risk-averse and try to take the safer path of following the rules, obeying the law, and conforming to the customs and traditions of "civilized" society. If you take a risk, you're rolling the dice, and you have to accept that you might sometimes roll craps.

That may be what is also frustrating, since so many people take all these risks and then cry foul if they're told they have to accept the consequences of their actions.

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This is a great post. I have a comment regarding conscience and risk taking. Sometimes a person may want to cheat on test because they don't want to risk the failure. So an honest person, may bite the bullet and accept consequences that they should have studied for 6 months. Yeah we were always taught good guys will prevail, but they actually may be the one taking even greater risks by being honest about their failings, especially those who care more about honesty than winning

I see it differently, and I'm not a psychopath. I do not think that our culture has gone 'Psychotic'. It is being introspective.

I think that occasionally society can go into what I would a post-Victorian phase. That is, a generation appears that does not understand some very rigid values and cultural choices that previous generations have made. I think the baby boomers are a post-Victorian group. As a result they have to rediscover the purpose for which their parents embraced those values. There is a cultural revolution as a result. I think war can cause this.

My limited view is that 1960's television explores violence, nudity etc as if for the first time. It isn't the medium of Television but the culture that demands these things. Since that time television has shifted away from whatever is shocking towards other poles. Now people are becoming sophisticated and want drama and emotion. They want to hear gentle music. Anything with violence in it contains a moral against violence.

I think our culture is still changing and deciding.

Laika,
It's your perspective that's off.

Risk-taking and success:
Risk taking either leads to success ... or it leads to failure. So the psychopaths' risky behavior is going to end up leading them to the top -or- the bottom. But you tend not to notice all the psychopaths who bankrupted themselves through risky behavior. You just notice the ones who are doing really well.

Suffering the consequences of their behavior, or not:
Socially, psychopaths are more likely to incur consequences for their behavior. They're more likely to do things that appall, disgust, offend and alienate their friends, and they will lose more friends (and with greater frequency) because of it. On the other hand, they're less likely to care about losing friends.

Legally, psychopaths are five times as likely to end up in prison than non-psychopaths are. I haven't been able to determine whether being imprisoned bothers them less / more than it does non-psychopaths.

Regardless of whether the psychopaths are bothered by the consequences that they suffer, it seems likely that you would be bothered by those same consequences.

Defining success:
Many of the measures of success that you mention in your post (celebrity, wealth, luxury goods, status symbols, sexual relationships, power) are fairly shallow goals.

Laika said:

Nice guys finish last and bad boys get the girl. Over. and Over. Again.

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Nice guys / bad boys:
When it comes to dating, being nice / bad is irrelevant. It's the confident guys who do well with women, regardless of whether they're nice or not.

This is a personal pet peeve. The self-professed "nice guys" are actually being more deceptive (and self-deceptive) than the guys they claim are "bad".

For example, if one of these "nice guys" wants to date a woman, he'll spend weeks or months befriending her, with the ulterior motive of getting a date. A confident guy will go up to the woman he wants to date, make some small talk and flirt with the woman, get her phone number, and then ask her out on a date. If the confident guy befriends a woman, it's because he actually wants to be friends with her, not as a pretense because it's a pathway into a romantic relationship.

Laika said:

its well known that a big dose of "confidence" (or narcassism) can be attractive and sexy- at least until the morning after when they've got out the bedroom and you realise they used you.

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It seems quite significant (to me) that you're putting "confidence" in quotes, and that you're equating it with narcissism.

If I wanted a date with a woman (and it seemed reasonably likely that she was attracted to me), I asked her out on a date. Either she would say yes, or she would say no. It was the fastest, clearest way to discover whether she wanted to date me. What part of that is narcissistic?

When one woman explicitly told me that she wasn't interested in a serious relationship, but strongly hinted that she'd be amenable to a short-term fling, and we ended up having sex a few days later, why should I claim that she "used" me? Why should she claim that I "used" her? Why would someone in a similar situation "realize" the casual nature of the relationship after sex, rather than before sex?

Laika said:

Are there moments when wish you could just switch off your empathy, lie in order to have sex with that really attractive person who you're never going to see again

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Why is lying necessary?

Back when I was much younger (and a bit promiscuous), I would tell women, "I'm not interested in having a monogamous relationship with anyone. I'm just having non-monogamous relationships with women who want the same thing." I had a number of sex partners who wanted precisely that kind of relationship.

If you believe lying is going to increase your chances of getting the attractive person in bed, it's because you haven't tried using honesty often enough.