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Graphics and Maps of the Exodus and Tabernacle. Moses Bible Study
Jethro Father in Law of Moses pbuh Jethro of Midian
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Pagan influence on Christianity
- Thread starter Muslim-UK
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This may help you:
Graphics and Maps of the Exodus and Tabernacle. Moses Bible Study
Jethro Father in Law of Moses pbuh Jethro of Midian
I disagree (although you are correct that many did have a problem with Jesus being the Messiah). This is a short list of Jews that believed:
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:47 PraisingGod, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.(not including wives and children)
Acts 5:14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
Acts 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied,
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.... ...14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Acts 9:42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.
And THAT is a short list of Jews. No small number.
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Do you understand what the word "probable" means?
Ummm... no. Absalon wasn't even a man yet.
Magus
Active Member
Midian and Sinai where named cos they where assumed to be the Biblical Midian & Sinai ( not the other way around) , the original name of Sinai was 'Mafkat' , the Romans named it 'Arabia Petraea' .
This is true for the 'Red Sea', in matter of fact, there is no Red Sea in the Book of Exodus at all, the Hebrew is 'Yam Cuph' ( Sea of Reeds) ( West / Sea - Marsh / Reeds),
I actually believe they crossed the Euphrates River, which was diverted in the 5th Century BCE by King Cyrus allowing his people to cross over, in Herodotus, Euphrates is described with the Greek 'Alos', the same word used in the Septuagint for the Hebrew 'Cuph'
This event is referenced in Isaiah
Isaiah 44:27
That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers
Since according to the Book of Joshua, the Red Sea was not split into two, but 'dried up', Seas don't dry up, but Rivers do.
This is true for the 'Red Sea', in matter of fact, there is no Red Sea in the Book of Exodus at all, the Hebrew is 'Yam Cuph' ( Sea of Reeds) ( West / Sea - Marsh / Reeds),
I actually believe they crossed the Euphrates River, which was diverted in the 5th Century BCE by King Cyrus allowing his people to cross over, in Herodotus, Euphrates is described with the Greek 'Alos', the same word used in the Septuagint for the Hebrew 'Cuph'
This event is referenced in Isaiah
Isaiah 44:27
That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers
Since according to the Book of Joshua, the Red Sea was not split into two, but 'dried up', Seas don't dry up, but Rivers do.
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Ok well you give a definitive timeline with evidences and we can take it from there. How old was the Absalon when he was killed by Joab, was he not of fighting age?
It is pretty much in chronological order...
The Ark came to Jerusalem in II Sam 6. The revolt of Absalom didn't come about until II Sam 15 MANY years later.
So Moses pbuh fled Egypt and went were exactly before receiving the 10 Commandments?
Ok so the Ark was moved from Kirjath-jearim to Jerusalem before Absalom was born. Then David flees to the wilderness to escape the army looking for him, later he returns and wants to build a Temple, but God tells him not to. So where is the Temple found in the valley of Bekkah then?
Unlike Arabia, Jerusalem has a long documented History going back Thousands of years. There have been many Historians and learned men from that region. Why can't you just find an old map and show me the valley of Bekkah is in Jerusalem?
Magus
Active Member
That would be the root from Babylon to Jerusalem, along the Euphrates, to Syria, then down into Judea and this mirrors
the story of Abraham, whom started in Chaldea, to Syria then journeyed south.
Chaldea is a term referring to the Babylonian Empire of Nebuchadnezzar II
Again.. you make many assumptions...
1) It very clearly said "City of David" is where they took it (Jerusalem). Ps 84 specifically talks about the "house" and the "courts" of the Lord"!
If there is no "valley" in the City of David, then your interpretation is wrong and you are back to a square peg in a round hole.
This does not reference the belief of Jews, It represents those who believed at the time of Paul before the New Testament even existed. The actual belief of these early Christians concerning Original Sin and the Fall' is unknown,
I am waiting for references as to what the Jews of the time actually believed.
Still waiting . . .
This may help you:
Graphics and Maps of the Exodus and Tabernacle. Moses Bible Study
Jethro Father in Law of Moses pbuh Jethro of Midian
The picture illustrated is simply a naturally eroded rock formation common all over the world particularly in the arid regions of western USA, What a hokus, bogus dishonest reference.
The erosion around the rock is the same as found in the whole region and many arid regions as natural erosion of the climate at that location over tens of thousands of years at least,
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Ok I understand that. Where did Moses pbuh go when he fled Egypt? Where was he when he received the Stone Tablets?
You are so wrong... These represented Jews that believed in as much as the Jews had not yet understood that Gentiles were also part of the gift that was purchased through the cross.
And they very clearly understood that sin separated one from God and the originator of sin was Adam. They had a whole system based on repentance along with a sacrifice for the covering of sin.
The concept of Sin separating man from God is indeed a concept in Judaism, but this is not 'Original Sin and the Fall,' which you have failed to document that Jews ever believed,
Still waiting . . .
Why is that important? (To this day they aren't sure where biblical Mount Sinai is as well as no site was constructed for worship there)
It is still right there in Genesis 3. Can't help it if you can't see it. Written by Jews.
Tumah
Veteran Member
I hope not, but I wouldn't be surprised...
And there it is...
You must have missed the first few words where it says "I lay in Zion... a stone". I don't know if you're familiar with Zion, but its a nickname of Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. Last ן checked, Mecca was not within the borders of any of those.
Onward to your Jewish "scholar".
How cute. If only this "scholar" knew that Judaism already comes with its own cubes: the inner and outer altars.
Two cube in the Temple. One of the cubes was circled 7 times over the course of one of the 7 day holidays. Both cubes had four raised corners. They were used for daily Temple service.
Two cubes on the body. The straps on one of the cubes circles the arm seven times. Both cubes have four passages inserted in them. They're used during daily prayer service.
Incidentally, there are 3 right angels on phylacteries. Its not just a cube, but a square (upper box) surrounded by a square (middle square sewn onto base) etched onto a square (base).
I wonder if this bears any relation to the altar which was a square (upper area) on a square (larger base) with a square (shown as a bold black line on the base) etched into it...
(Sorry for the Hebrew, couldn't find a good one in English. Also bear in mind, there was actually a space between the ramp and the altar, so its actually two connected structures.)
But no I mean, let's just go with them being closely related to the Kaaba instead. Because.
There is no evidence that Jethro was a priest of the Kaaba, or that the Ka'aba even existed 1300 BCE when Jethro was around. Some suggest that there was more than one kaaba at one point.
Nowhere is there indication that Moses studied under Jethro. It does say that he was his shepherd. Shepherds usually spend their time out in the fields, not studying under the priests in the city. It also says that he spoke to G-d on Mt. Horeb, another name for Mt. Sinai. The Kaaba is in a valley and [assuming it even existed at this time] was a place for idol worship in pre-Islamic times. Wherever Mt. Horeb/Sinai actually was, it clearly wasn't where Jethro served as priest since Jethro has to travel there in Ex. 18:5. So even assuming Jethro was a priest of the kaaba (again, so far no evidence of that), that was not where the Jews went when they went to the desert.
There is no evidence that one of the signs Moses told the Jews in Egypt that they were moving from the pyramid to the cube. The square requirement of the phylacteries is mentioned nowhere in the Torah and is part of the Oral Tradition we have of things that Moses told us when he came down from Mt. Sinai. This was over a month after having left Egypt.
Circumambulation is present in a number of world religions. Whether or not pre-Islamic Arabs circled the ka'aba, the fact that Muslims do so today does not indicate that Jews wind our phylactery straps seven times because Muslims circle the Kaaba seven times. If anything, as Islam descends from Judaism its more likely that Muslims circle the Kaaba seven times, because we wind our phylactery strap seven times (or because we circle the podium in the synagogue seven times, or because we circled the outer altar seven times over the holiday of Tabernacles). Let's not forget the sequence of the religions' emergence.
The Hebrew word "ḥag" meaning "circle" is probably used for celebration, because you dance in a circle during a celebration. In the Torah, its also used to refer to sacrifices that were offered during celebrations. A clear example of this, is Ex. 23:18 "do not leave over (lit. spend the night) the fats of My ḥag until the morning". So when Ex. 5:1 says, "and they shall ḥag for me in the desert", its pretty obvious that its referring to celebratory sacrifices as Moses later tells Pharaoh in Ex. 10:25 "and also give into our hand sacrifices and burnt offerings, and we shall do [them] for our G-d." If the point was to go to the desert to perform hajj at the Kabaa, then we'd expect to see some mention of that somewhere.
I'm also not sure why the video isolated Ex. 12:14 as the other example of the word "ḥag" when its actually used for all the festivals.
"Ḥag" doesn't have the meaning of pilgrimage in Hebrew as it does in Arabic. When the Torah wants to indicate a pilgrimage, it uses the word "regel (lit. leg)". The Three Pilgrimages are called the Shalosh Regalim (three legs). This word is used to indicate going somewhere as in Num. 21:32 "and Moses sent to spy (la'ragel)" and Josh. 6:25 "whom Joshua sent to spy (la'ragel)". In these cases, the subject is going somewhere. Which happens to be something you use your legs for.
Anyways, the whole video is nonsense, because whoever put it together assumes that Jews are doing things because of reasons listed given in the Qur'an for Muslim customs. Meanwhile, on Earth Judaism came first. Its more likely that Muslims base their customs on Jewish Laws and requirements, than the opposite.
David pbuh wanted to build a Temple in Jerusalem and was told not to by God. Elsewhere, outside Jerusalem was a valley with a Temple dedicated to God. You have not shown where this temple is.
As I was explaining to Muffled, In Isaiah 28 we learn it's a physical building where believers may take refugee and be protected from non believers.
Physical Temple with a special cornerstone:
Isaiah 28:16 So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic. <<<< It's a physical sanctuary were people feel safe.
Do you know of a place in the World today, housing a Temple in the Valley of Bekka that is off limits to non believers?
Verse 17 gives another clue: 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
(`Abd Al-Muttalib Ibn Hashim, the grandfather of the Prophet rediscovered Zamzam after its landmarks were hidden.The area of dwellings at Makkah had been increasing especially after Abraham and his son Isma`il (peace and blessings be upon them) built the Sacred House. The tribe of Jurhum continued to take charge of the Sacred House and the Well of Zamzam for a period of time until a Yemenite tribe so called Khuza`ah emigrated to this place after the collapse of the Ma'rib dam. Khuza`ah went into battle with Jurhum and at the end Khuza`ah were victorious and took charge of the Sacred House.)
In various other places in Isaiah we learn a Prophet would rise from amongst the people of Kedar in Arabia, he would speak a foreign tongue and be taught a New Covenant line by line, a little here, a little there.
Again... you are creating a picture that isn't there.David pbuh wanted to build a Temple in Jerusalem and was told not to by God. Elsewhere, outside Jerusalem was a valley with a Temple dedicated to God. You have not shown where this temple is.
As I was explaining to Muffled, In Isaiah 28 we learn it's a physical building where believers may take refugee and be protected from non believers.
Physical Temple with a special cornerstone:
Isaiah 28:16 So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic. <<<< It's a physical sanctuary were people feel safe.
Do you know of a place in the World today, housing a Temple in the Valley of Bekka that is off limits to non believers?
Verse 17 gives another clue: 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
(`Abd Al-Muttalib Ibn Hashim, the grandfather of the Prophet rediscovered Zamzam after its landmarks were hidden.The area of dwellings at Makkah had been increasing especially after Abraham and his son Isma`il (peace and blessings be upon them) built the Sacred House. The tribe of Jurhum continued to take charge of the Sacred House and the Well of Zamzam for a period of time until a Yemenite tribe so called Khuza`ah emigrated to this place after the collapse of the Ma'rib dam. Khuza`ah went into battle with Jurhum and at the end Khuza`ah were victorious and took charge of the Sacred House.)
In various other places in Isaiah we learn a Prophet would rise from amongst the people of Kedar in Arabia, he would speak a foreign tongue and be taught a New Covenant line by line, a little here, a little there.
Feel free to do so, but God's presence abode was first in an Ark that was taken to the City of David (not Mecca) and then in the Temple that Solomon built.
And the promise was through Isaac and not Ishmael.
Some people wonder if the root reason for animosity between the decedents of Isaac (Jews) and Ishmael (Muslims) has everything to do with the rejection of the first born (by man's creation) for the second (by God's creation).