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Katzpur and Halcyon: LDS evidence discussion

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Hey Katz, one brand spanking new thread for us to discuss stuff in. :D

Note to everyone else, please don't post! This is a strictly one-on-one thread.

If there is something you are just bursting to say, then PM Katzpur or myself.

Ok Katz i don't know how you want to work this, maybe we could start out with an overview of the different forms of evidence you have?
Or would you want to take it piece by piece?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Halcyon said:
Hey Katz, one brand spanking new thread for us to discuss stuff in. :D

Note to everyone else, please don't post! This is a strictly one-on-one thread.

If there is something you are just bursting to say, then PM Katzpur or myself.

Ok Katz i don't know how you want to work this, maybe we could start out with an overview of the different forms of evidence you have?
Or would you want to take it piece by piece?
I guess great minds really do think alike. The idea of an overview was something I kind of had in mind. I'll try to get to it tonight. Meanwhile, the real world calls...
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Here we go! :slap:

As you know, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that the Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith from an ancient record inscribed on metal plates which "had the appearance of gold," and which were given to him by a resurrected being by the name of Moroni, who once lived on the American continent. The Book of Mormon is a sacred and secular record of several distinct groups of people, most of whom descended from Joseph who was sold into Egypt. Their story begins in Jerusalem at about 600 B.C., shortly before the Fall of Jerusalem to Babylon. The subtitle of the book, "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" clarifies its purpose.

I see the most of the evidence for the Book of Mormon as falling into one of the following categories:

1. Linguistic
2. Cultural
3. Archeological
4. Scientific

Of course, some of the evidence may overlap from one category to another. I will give several examples within each category of evidence which I believe is significant. It goes without saying that I am not an expert in any of these areas. I do, however, have a greater comfort level in discussing the linguistic and cultural evidences than the archeological evidences and especially the scientific evidences. Nevertheless, I'll do my best to address all of them and hopefully will be able to do so to your satisfaction. Before I do, though, I would like to just begin by mentioning a few general facts about the Book to give you some kind of an idea the scope of the work Joseph Smith produced.

When Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, he was twenty-three years of age and newly married. He had a third-grade education and a background primarily in farming. His entire life had been spent in the rural Eastern United States.

The book he claimed to translated was a history about an ancient civilization. It was more than 500 pages in length and contained roughly 150 words per page. Once he began translating, he completed the entire process in roughly ninety days. Due to a number of interruptions, he actually had closer to sixty days in which to finish this book. He used a vocabulary of fewer than 3500 words and yet introduced into the English language 180 new proper nouns.

The chronological time frame for this history was from about 2150 B.C. to 400 A.D. (with most of it covering the period from 600 B.C. on). The portion of the narrative covering the last 1000 years did not contain any large, unaccounted for gaps of time, and a number of interrelated local histories were going on at once. Integrated into the history of two separate and distinct great nations were accurate accounts of their warfare, their religious beliefs, and their economic, social and political cultures and institutions. Cultural and technical details were lavish and extensive. And yet, Joseph was not able to travel to the place where this history is to have taken place or even have access to research material of any kind.

He brought into the account a discussion of the pure and simple Gospel of Jesus Christ and the pattern of Christian living. His statements did not contradict the Bible but must instead strengthened accepted scripture. In this history, he proposed ideas and statements which were entirely inconsistent with prevailing beliefs in the world, at that time but which have come into true light and focus during the 160+ years since his death.


I will do my best to post on this thread at least once a day. There may, however, be some days when this is impossible. I'm looking forward to hearing from you, Paul. Unless there is a specific issue you would like to start out with, I would like to begin tomorrow by discussing some of the linguistic evidences of the Book of Mormon.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Okay, I'm going to start with some of the linguistic evidences, since I personally find these the most interesting. Before I get started, though, I would just like to clarify one more time that I am not claiming that any of the evidences I present prove the Book of Mormon to be true. What I will claim is that they refute many of the claims our critics have presented which, if accurate, would prove that the Book of Mormon could not possibly be true. I want to make that clear at the outset.

Let's start with the use of chiasms. If you know what a chiasm is, I apologize for the explanation I'm about to give. We've never spoken about the subject before, though, so it might be a good thing to review it any any rate. Chiamsus is a style of writing used in ancient Semetic literature. It consists of arranging a series of statements in one order and then repeating them (though generally not word for word) in the opposite order. Here, from Isaiah, is a simple example of the use of chasmus:

(a) Make the heart of this people fat,
(b) and make their ears heavy,
(c) and shut their eyes;
(c') lest they see with their eyes,
(b') and hear with their ears,
(a') and understand with their heart...

In the 1820's, two British scholars first identified examples of chiamus in the Bible, and published their findings. Is is possible that Joseph Smith had access to these publications and read them? Here is how one LDS scholar, John Welch, would respond to that question:

[FONT=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]"[T]here exists no chance that Joseph Smith could have learned of this style [chiasmus] through academic channels. No one in America, let alone in western New York, fully understood chiasmus in 1829. Joseph Smith had been dead ten full years before John Forbes' book was published in Scotland. Even the prominent scholars today know little about chiasmic forms beyond its name and a few passages where it might be found. The possibility of Joseph Smith's noticing the form accidentally is even more remote, since most biblical passages containing inverted word orders have been rearranged into natural word orders in the King James translation. And even had he known of the form, he would still have had the overwhelming task of writing original, artistic chiasmic sentences. Try writing a sonnet or multi-termed chiasm yourself: your appreciation of these forms will turn to awe. If the Book of Mormon then is found to contain true chiasmal forms, should it not be asserted without further qualification that the book is a product of ancient Hebrews culture?" [/SIZE][/FONT]

Here is one of the shorter examples of a chiasm in the Book of Mormon:

Mosiah 3:18,19:
(Men will drink damnation to their souls unless)
(a) They HUMBLE themselves
(b) and become as little CHILDREN
(c) believing that salvation is in the ATONING BLOOD OF CHRIST;
(d) for the NATURAL MAN
(e) is an enemy of GOD
(f) and HAS BEEN from the fall of Adam
(f') and WILL BE forever and ever
(e') unless he yieldeth to the HOLY SPIRIT
(d') and putteth off the NATURAL MAN
(c') and becometh a saint through the ATONEMENT OF CHRIST
(b') and becometh as a CHILD
(a') submissive, meek and HUMBLE.

There are actually instances in the Book of Mormon where entire chapters are written in this poetic form (Alma 36 is an example), and many of the instances of are highly complex and intricate. While it is possible to actually create a chiasm accidentally, such a chiasm would undoubtedly be simple and easy to recognize. But to use this form in such elaborate, multi-layered patterns as are found in the Book of Mormon is truly remarkable.

Incidentally, new instances of chiasmus have been discovered in the Book of Mormon as recently as within the last fifteen years, and non-LDS scholars (notably J.H. Charlesworth, Angelico Salvatore di Marco, David Noel Freeman, and Stanislav Segert) have also noted and been impressed with the presence of chiasmus in the Book of Mormon.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
I had no idea what chiasmus was, i've never studied linguistics so this is all Martian to me, but i'm doing my best to understand.

Is it possible that, just as chiasmus originally arose in ancient Jews it could also arise independantly in Joseph Smith?
Do you know how much Smith read the Bible, did he enjoy reading it? Is it possible that he especially liked Isaiah and subsequently based his writing style on what he found therein?

I'm not sure you, or anyone, could really answer those questions Katz, but they're whats going through my head as i'm reading your post, trying to think of any and all alternative theories (its the science training i had drilled in to me i think :rolleyes: ).

Its good evidence, and interesting, but i guess the kind of evidence i'm really looking forward to seeing is the kind that i can't imagine any possible alternatives for.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Halcyon said:
I had no idea what chiasmus was, i've never studied linguistics so this is all Martian to me, but i'm doing my best to understand.

Is it possible that, just as chiasmus originally arose in ancient Jews it could also arise independantly in Joseph Smith?
You had no idea what chaismus was, and yet you suspect that Joseph Smith might have done, or that he might have simply developed it on his own. Based on his knowledge, schooling, lack of resources, and on the degree of complexity of the Book of Mormon chiasms, I'd say this would have been next to impossible.

Do you know how much Smith read the Bible, did he enjoy reading it? Is it possible that he especially liked Isaiah and subsequently based his writing style on what he found therein?
Well, since he had only a third-grade education, and not all that much available time to do much reading of any kind, I'd say he probably read it when he could, and took from it what he was able to.

Its good evidence, and interesting, but i guess the kind of evidence i'm really looking forward to seeing is the kind that i can't imagine any possible alternatives for.
If you think I might be able to come up with evidence that you can't imagine any possible alternatives for, Paul, I might as well stop right now. I'm sure you will have possible alternatives for every piece of evidence I might come up with. But, seeing as this is evidently going to be your mindset, why don't you start by suggesting some possible alternatives for the many instances of chiasmus in the Book of Mormon. I know that you have a copy of the book, so why don't you start by reviewing Alma 36, and explaining how Joseph might have gone about developing the complex example of a chiasm that constitutes this entire chapter. Since you believe this literary form is apparently one that Joseph might have developed on his own, I'd like to hear a little bit more about how you think he might have done so. Or better still, why don't you try to write a chiasm yourself of equal length and complexity. You obviously have an edge over Joseph Smith, in that you are far better educated and have many more resources at your disposal than he did.

I've got several more literary evidences to post, and I'll try to get to them either today or tomorrow. I'll be out of town on business from Tuesday through Thursday, which should give you the time to complete your chiasm and come up with a logical explanation of why you are so skeptical of mine. ;)
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Katzpur said:
You had no idea what chaismus was, and yet you suspect that Joseph Smith might have done, or that he might have simply developed it on his own. Based on his knowledge, schooling, lack of resources, and on the degree of complexity of the Book of Mormon chiasms, I'd say this would have been next to impossible.
Well, ok then, that answers my question. Although i didn't actually say i thought Smith knew what chiasmus was, or even delibrately recreated it.

Katzpur said:
Well, since he had only a third-grade education, and not all that much available time to do much reading of any kind, I'd say he probably read it when he could, and took from it what he was able to.
I see.

Katzpur said:
If you think I might be able to come up with evidence that you can't imagine any possible alternatives for, Paul, I might as well stop right now. I'm sure you will have possible alternatives for every piece of evidence I might come up with.
I don't know about that, dan came up with some language similarities that stumped me.

Katzpur said:
But, seeing as this is evidently going to be your mindset, why don't you start by suggesting some possible alternatives for the many instances of chiasmus in the Book of Mormon. I know that you have a copy of the book, so why don't you start by reviewing Alma 36, and explaining how Joseph might have gone about developing the complex example of a chiasm that constitutes this entire chapter.
Like i said, i'm no linguist, i know nothing of the form and structure of literature. In this regard i am entirely your student Katz. I read Alma 36, but i'm not sure what i'm looking for, i didn't see the sort of chiasmus you posted before. Could you possibly point it out for me so i better understand what we're talking about?

Katzpur said:
Since you believe this literary form is apparently one that Joseph might have developed on his own, I'd like to hear a little bit more about how you think he might have done so. Or better still, why don't you try to write a chiasm yourself of equal length and complexity. You obviously have an edge over Joseph Smith, in that you are far better educated and have many more resources at your disposal than he did.
You're putting words into my mouth, i didn't say i believed Joseph Smith developed it on his own, i just put it forth as an alternative theory, which if your information on him i correct, seems less likely now.
I said somewhere before that i'm trying to keep an open mind, which doesn't mean accepting the BoM as true, but accepting the evidence your giving me as one possibility - to keep an open mind i cannot believe or disbelieve any one theory.

Katzpur said:
I've got several more literary evidences to post, and I'll try to get to them either today or tomorrow. I'll be out of town on business from Tuesday through Thursday, which should give you the time to complete your chiasm and come up with a logical explanation of why you are so skeptical of mine. ;)
I'm skeptical because that is the stance i must take in this thread, i'm not going to agree with everything you say, although i might agree with some of it. I'm just asking questions and trying to offer alternatives, if you can dismiss those alternatives by using extra evidence then that's great.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Halcyon said:
Well, ok then, that answers my question. Although i didn't actually say i thought Smith knew what chiasmus was, or even delibrately recreated it.
I understand. I guess all I'm trying to to say is that if he didn't know what a chiasmus was (and there is pretty much no way he could have known), he would have had to simply create one accidentally, without really putting any thought into it. That, of course, would have been entirely possible. It probably happens all the time in writing. But such a chiasm would certainly not be more than a couple of lines in length. To write a complex chiasm such as those that appear in the Book of Mormon would be another matter entirely.

It would also make no sense whatsoever for him to have even bothered making use of a literary form that nobody else who would read the book would recognize as being a hallmark of ancient Semetic writing. Joseph Smith himself probably never even recognized that he was including in his work an important piece of evidence which no one would even notice until 1969.

I read Alma 36, but i'm not sure what i'm looking for, i didn't see the sort of chiasmus you posted before. Could you possibly point it out for me so i better understand what we're talking about?

Sure. The following should be helpful. Keep in mind that the parallel concepts you'll want to be watching for are denoted by lower-case letters at the beginning of each line. The keywords are capitalized, and the verses where you will find the actual text are numbered at the end of each line.

(a) My son, give ear to my WORDS (1)


(b) KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God and ye shall PROSPER IN THE LAND (2)


(c) DO AS I HAVE DONE (2)


(d) in REMEMBERING THE CAPTIVITY of our fathers (2);


(e) for they were in BONDAGE (2)


(f) he surely did DELIVER them (2)


(g) TRUST in God (3)


(h) supported in their TRIALS, and TROUBLES, and AFFLICTIONS (3)


(i) shall be lifted up at the LAST DAY (3)


(j) I KNOW this not of myself but of GOD (4)


(k) BORN OF GOD (5)


(l) I sought to destroy the church of God (6-9)


(m) MY LIMBS were paralyzed (10)


(n) Fear of being in the PRESENCE OF GOD (14-15)


(o) PAINS of a damned soul (16)


(p) HARROWED UP BY THE MEMORY OF SINS (17)


(q) I remembered JESUS CHRIST, SON OF GOD (17)


(q') I cried, JESUS, SON OF GOD (18)


(p') HARROWED UP BY THE MEMORY OF SINS no more (19)


(o') Joy as exceeding as was the PAIN (20)


(n') Long to be in the PRESENCE OF GOD (22)


(m') My LIMBS received their strength again (23)


(l') I labored to bring souls to repentance (24)


(k') BORN OF GOD (26)


(j') Therefore MY KNOWLEDGE IS OF GOD (26)


(h') Supported under TRIALS, TROUBLES, and AFFLICTIONS (27)


(g') TRUST in him (27)


(f') He will deliver me (27)


(i') and RAISE ME UP AT THE LAST DAY (28)


(e') As God brought our fathers out of BONDAGE and captivity (28-29)


(d') Retain in REMEMBRANCE THEIR CAPTIVITY (28-29)


(c') KNOW AS I DO KNOW (30)


(b') KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS and ye shall PROSPER IN THE LAND (30)


(a') This is according to his WORD (30).

You're putting words into my mouth, i didn't say i believed Joseph Smith developed it on his own, i just put it forth as an alternative theory, which if your information on him i correct, seems less likely now. I said somewhere before that i'm trying to keep an open mind, which doesn't mean accepting the BoM as true, but accepting the evidence your giving me as one possibility - to keep an open mind i cannot believe or disbelieve any one theory.
I apologize. I guess I was just operating in debate mode and may have come across as being overly defensive.

I'm skeptical because that is the stance i must take in this thread, i'm not going to agree with everything you say, although i might agree with some of it. I'm just asking questions and trying to offer alternatives, if you can dismiss those alternatives by using extra evidence then that's great.
I realize that, and I appreciate the fact that you aren't so much hostile as you are skeptical. We are, after all, debating. I would be very surprised to see you throw in the towel at this point, even if I actually had convinced you.

More as soon as I have the time to sit down and write it...
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Okay, let’s leave chiasmus behind and go on to other literary evidences. Back in the early 1970’s, the LDS leadership felt that it was important that the Book of Mormon be translated back into a native Semitic language, so that those in the world who spoke Hebrew and Arabic might be able to read it. Since there were many time more speakers of Arabic than Hebrew, they decided that the book should first be translated into Arabic.

Coincidentally, there was at that time at the University of Utah, a visiting professor from the University of Chicago. He was teaching in the University’s Department of Middle Eastern Studies and was, in fact, a colleague of my father. He was a native Egyptian by the name of Sami Hanna. When Dr. Hanna moved with his family to Utah, he found himself suddenly immersed in a culture that was pretty different from the one he’d left back in Chicago. The LDS culture intrigued him and he was particularly fascinated to learn that the Mormons' sacred text had supposedly been originally written in an Egyptian script by people whose native tongue was Hebrew. Dr. Hanna was obviously quite excited to be asked to be the translator of the Book of Mormon back into Arabic. Here is what Dr. Hanna had to say upon completing the translation:

“When I began reading the Book of Mormon, and began making myself familiar with it, I expected to find a very poorly written book, as I had been told by critics of the unschooled nature of the youthful Joseph Smith as he had purportedly translated the book.

What I found, however, was not a book of poor English; but to the contrary, I found myself reading the most beautiful Semitic book I had ever read! Naturally, it wasn’t long before I knew that I must join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This I did, and I now hold the office of elder in the Church.”

Sami Hanna was a respected non-LDS scholar when he accepted the task of translating the Book of Mormon into Hebrew. He found a number of characteristically Semitic characteristics throughout the book. I won’t go into all of them at this time, but will point out a few that I found especially significant.

In translating the Book of Mormon, Joseph retained the literal wording whenever possible, and in doing so, restricted his verb usage to that in which the original text would have been written. For example, you will find in the Book of Mormon, the frequent use of compound verbs such as “did go,” “did eat,” “did smite,” etc. This wording is awkward in English, but because Joseph wanted to retain the flavor of the language from which he was translating, he used the literal verb forms as he read them, instead of saying “went,” “ate,” and “smote.”

The use of “function words” in the Book of Mormon is typically Semitic. In fact, the Book of Mormon is teeming with phrases that are quite uncharacteristically unnatural for the English speaking person. Dr. Hanna gave three examples of this.

(1) There are many, many more “ands” in a typical Semitic sentence than you would find in a typical English sentence expressing the same thought. Let’s look, for instance, at Helaman 3:14, which reads, “But behold, a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, yea, the account of the Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars, and contentions, and dissensions, and their preaching, and their prophecies, and their shipping and their building of ships, and their building of temples, and of synagogues and their sanctuaries, and their righteousness, and their wickedness, and their murders, and their robbings, and their plundering, and all manner of abominations, and whoredoms, cannot be contained in this work…”

There are a total of 18 instances of the word “and” in this verse alone. Had Joseph simply dropped most of them, the sentence would have made perfect sense to a native English speaker and would have flowed much more naturally than it actually does. It would, however, have lost the Semetic characteristics it now retains.

(2) Just as the word “and” appears to be overused in the English version of the Book of Mormon, but not in a Semitic translation of the book, a similar situation exists with the use of possessive pronouns. For example, 1 Nephi 2:4 states, “And he left his house, and the land of his inheritance, and his gold, and his silver and his precious things.” We English-speaking people would have probably have omitted at least two (perhaps three) of the five uses of the word “his” – in addition, of course, to the word “and” preceding each of them. We’d typically say, “And he left his house, the land of his inheritance, his gold, silver and precious things.” In the Semitic languages, each repetition of the word “his” is not only not considered redundant, but necessary for proper usage.

(3) The cognitive accusative is seldom seen in English. It sounds awkward and incorrect to us. Not so in Hebrew. Consequently, you’ll find the frequent use of phrases such as “dreamed a dream,” “worked a work,” and “write a writing.” Had Joseph simply been making up the book as he was going along, he would undoubtedly have written “dreamed,” “worked,” and “wrote.” Instead, he rendered the text into as literal a translation as he could and still make it understood.

Okay, that’s enough for today. I have enough more material for two more posts on the literary evidences in the Book of Mormon (more, actually, but I had rather hoped to keep this thread to a reasonable length). I’ll see if I can find time tomorrow to post more of Sami Hanna’s findings, and will then go on to share some of the findings of other scholars.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Katzpur said:
I understand. I guess all I'm trying to to say is that if he didn't know what a chiasmus was (and there is pretty much no way he could have known), he would have had to simply create one accidentally, without really putting any thought into it. That, of course, would have been entirely possible. It probably happens all the time in writing. But such a chiasm would certainly not be more than a couple of lines in length. To write a complex chiasm such as those that appear in the Book of Mormon would be another matter entirely.

It would also make no sense whatsoever for him to have even bothered making use of a literary form that nobody else who would read the book would recognize as being a hallmark of ancient Semetic writing. Joseph Smith himself probably never even recognized that he was including in his work an important piece of evidence which no one would even notice until 1969.
I understand that, all i was thinking was that maybe he saw a style of writing in Isaiah that he liked and simple immitated it, but now i see that chiasmus is a more complex creation than a realised.

Katzpur said:
Sure. The following should be helpful. Keep in mind that the parallel concepts you'll want to be watching for are denoted by lower-case letters at the beginning of each line. The keywords are capitalized, and the verses where you will find the actual text are numbered at the end of each line.

(a) My son, give ear to my WORDS (1)

..............[snip]................

(c') KNOW AS I DO KNOW (30)


(b') KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS and ye shall PROSPER IN THE LAND (30)


(a') This is according to his WORD (30).
I think i get it now, complicated. So, if i were to try and write a chiasm i guess i'd need to write piece of text, highlight some important phrases and then repeat the text in reverse, but alter it to make sense. Is that right?

Katzpur said:
I apologize. I guess I was just operating in debate mode and may have come across as being overly defensive.
Tis fine, i imagine its become a habitual LDS thing by now, considering the sheer volume of debates people start on your faith.

Katzpur said:
The LDS culture intrigued him and he was particularly fascinated to learn that the Mormons' sacred text had supposedly been originally written in an Egyptian script by people whose native tongue was Hebrew.
This reminds me, i keep meaning to ask this but forget. Obviously we don't have the gold plates anymore, but Joseph Smith copied some of the original script and showed it to a professer of Egyptology or something, do we still have those copies?

Also, does the BoM explain why the Jews used Reformed Egyption instead of their native Hebrew?

Katzpur said:
(1) There are many, many more “ands” in a typical Semitic sentence than you would find in a typical English sentence expressing the same thought. Let’s look, for instance, at Helaman 3:14, which reads, “But behold, a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, yea, the account of the Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars, and contentions, and dissensions, and their preaching, and their prophecies, and their shipping and their building of ships, and their building of temples, and of synagogues and their sanctuaries, and their righteousness, and their wickedness, and their murders, and their robbings, and their plundering, and all manner of abominations, and whoredoms, cannot be contained in this work…”

There are a total of 18 instances of the word “and” in this verse alone. Had Joseph simply dropped most of them, the sentence would have made perfect sense to a native English speaker and would have flowed much more naturally than it actually does. It would, however, have lost the Semetic characteristics it now retains.

Is this not also true of the King James Version of the Bible though?

Random bit from Genesis said:
And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
22 "ands" in this short section too. We also have an example of a compound verb (underlined).
I'm not saying the BoM doesn't have the characteristics Dr. Hanna points out, but from my point of view these same characteristics are found in the KJV, which is written in archaic formal english and, to me, seems very similar in terms of language when i read it and the BoM side by side.
We know Smith had access to the KJV so, as my alternative theory for this evidence, i'm putting forth the idea that his writing style was influenced by his Bible.
Do you have evidence to falsify this theory? Have i missed something obvious?

I'm looking forward to the next part Katz, even if the BoM was not a divine translation it appears to be a far better written and more complex book than i had previously thought.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Halcyon said:
I think i get it now, complicated. So, if i were to try and write a chiasm i guess i'd need to write piece of text, highlight some important phrases and then repeat the text in reverse, but alter it to make sense. Is that right?
That would be correct.

This reminds me, i keep meaning to ask this but forget. Obviously we don't have the gold plates anymore, but Joseph Smith copied some of the original script and showed it to a professer of Egyptology or something, do we still have those copies?
There is a document you might want to look at. You can find it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Caractors_large.jpg.

This paper is believed to have been the one Martin Harris took to New York, which was examined by Professor Charles Anthon. It is currently owned by the Community of Christ Church which is the largest of the several groups which split from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after Joseph Smith's martyrdom. Roughly a dozen of the characters from this document are almost identical to characters found on a roller stamp found at Tlatilco, Valley of Mexico. A number of other sample characters closely resemble Middle Eastern characters in use today. I wish I had copies of them to show you or could direct you to an online source. Unfortunately, the only thing I have is in a book. At any rate, these characters have been verified to be authentic.

Also, does the BoM explain why the Jews used Reformed Egyption instead of their native Hebrew?
Yes, in Mormon 9:33, we find the explanation: "And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record."

Is this not also true of the King James Version of the Bible though? I'm not saying the BoM doesn't have the characteristics Dr. Hanna points out, but from my point of view these same characteristics are found in the KJV, which is written in archaic formal english and, to me, seems very similar in terms of language when i read it and the BoM side by side. We know Smith had access to the KJV so, as my alternative theory for this evidence, i'm putting forth the idea that his writing style was influenced by his Bible. Do you have evidence to falsify this theory? Have i missed something obvious?
I suppose you could argue that, although there is no evidence that Joseph ever studied the Bible in that much depth. And would he have really known what he was looking for? I'm not convinced that he would, and I can say for a surety that I wouldn't.

There are other things I don't believe Joseph would have spotted had he simply attempted to replicate the linguistic characteristics of the Bible. One very subtle peculiarity that I was not aware of until recently is the fact that there is no person in the Bible whose name (as translated into English) contains the letters q, x or w, nor does any person in the Bible have a name that begins with the letter F. The same is true with the names of people in the Book of Mormon. Not once in any of the hundreds of proper nouns he used in the Book of Mormon is there an instance of a name containing a q, x or w or beginning with an F.

I could give you perhaps a dozen examples of other characteristics that support the idea that the Book of Mormon was, in fact, translated from an ancient Hebrew manuscript. To me, the premise that Joseph Smith laboriously studied with Bible and was able to pick up on so many of these details is far less believable than that that the book is actually what he claimed it was. In trying to come up with examples you would possibly accept as valid, I did come across another interesting one. This particular example is significant, because not only does it represent the characteristic Hebrew usage, but because Joseph Smith's translation was more literally accurate than the King James Version of the Bible Joseph would have owned. This is known as Plural Amplification. When the intent is to emphasize a particular idea or concept, Biblical Hebrew often uses the plural form of a noun when the singular would make more sense. Here, from the Bible, are five examples. (The words in parentheses are the correct English translation of the Hebrew. You can see how the translators of the King James Bible chose to use the singular instead of the more accurately translated plural form of the word.)

"...thy brother's blood (bloods) crieth unto me from the ground" (Genesis 4:10)
"...and strength of salvation (salvations)" (Isaiah 33:6)
"...O Lord God, to whom vengeance (vengeances) belongeth" (Psalm 94:1)
"...Widsom (wisdoms crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets" (Proverbs 1:20)
"...the wicked... shall be brought forth to the day of wrath (wraths)" (Job 21:30)

However, in translating the Book of Mormon, Joseph made no attempt to change the form of the noun to the singular. He translated the words literally, even when the singular would have made more sense. Here are five examples from the Book of Mormon:

"...there shall be bloodsheds" (2 Nephi 1:12)
"...labor with their mights" (Jacob 5:72)
"...their cunning and their lyings" (Alma 20:13)
"...great slaughters with the sword" (1 Nephi 12:2)
"...there were...magics" (Mormon 1:19)

Well, that's enough for now. I just learned I'm not going to be going out of town for the next three days after all, so I will continue to try to post a little more each day.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon



Paul, this is a picture of some of the characters in the Charles Anthon manuscript and some recognized Egyptian characters, (compliments of Silvermoon).
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Katzpur said:
I suppose you could argue that, although there is no evidence that Joseph ever studied the Bible in that much depth. And would he have really known what he was looking for? I'm not convinced that he would, and I can say for a surety that I wouldn't.
I was just thinking he emulated the style, not that he really looked for anything in particular - anyway its just speculation on my part.

Katzpur said:
One very subtle peculiarity that I was not aware of until recently is the fact that there is no person in the Bible whose name (as translated into English) contains the letters q, x or w, nor does any person in the Bible have a name that begins with the letter F. The same is true with the names of people in the Book of Mormon. Not once in any of the hundreds of proper nouns he used in the Book of Mormon is there an instance of a name containing a q, x or w or beginning with an F.
This reminds me of another thing i keep forgetting to ask, you know in Hebrew all names have meanigs, like Daniel means "my judge is the Lord" and Solomon means "peaceful", are there any BoM exclusive names - like i assume Nephi is - that have meanings in Hebrew?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Halcyon said:
I was just thinking he emulated the style, not that he really looked for anything in particular - anyway its just speculation on my part.
It could well be argued that he emulated the style. Obviously, King James English is King James English. But the degree to which he either consciously or unconsciously zeroed in on so many details characteristic of ancient Semetic languages is simply too uncanny to dismiss, in my opinion. But feel free to disagree. ;)

This reminds me of another thing i keep forgetting to ask, you know in Hebrew all names have meanigs, like Daniel means "my judge is the Lord" and Solomon means "peaceful", are there any BoM exclusive names - like i assume Nephi is - that have meanings in Hebrew?
That's an interesting question. To be honest, I don't know. If any Latter-day Saints are reading this and know the answer, please PM me with it. Meanwhile I'll see what I can find out. I did receive an interesting PM on the subject last night from DeepShadow, but since I needed to ask him some questions about it, I'll wait until he answers me to comment further.

Okay, so where shall we go from here?

I am beat tonight. Having been under tremendous pressure at work lately, I am really having a hard time sitting down to either do research or type out a reply after having already spent 8 hours on the computer. So, for now, I'll just leave you with a few quick points I thought you might find interesting. More will follow, in a day or so, once I feel more up to posting.

1. In Mosiah 11:8, we read, “And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper…”

“Ziff” is not an English word, nor is it mentioned even once in the Bible. It is, however, the Arabic word for a special kind of curved sword, carried in a sheath. It was sometimes used for fighting, but was also used for ornamentation. There is no way in the world that Joseph Smith could possibly have known this, nor would he have known an English word close enough to the meaning of the word “ziff” that he could have used in its place.

2. Joseph Smith stated that “the title-page of the Book of Mormon is a literal translation, taken from the very last leaf, on the left hand side of the collection or book of plates, which contained the record which has been translated.” This is significant because, as recently noted by non-Mormon scholar, Walter Burkert, putting the information we expect to see on a “title page” at the end of a document was typical of ancient Middle Eastern texts. This is not something Joseph Smith would have known or thought to do, and it is obviously not something he could have noticed in reading the Bible.

3. The ancient Mayan language was strikingly similar in appearance to the “Reformed Egyptian” characters on the golden plates. I’m afraid I know of no online pictures comparing these two kinds of writing; however, if you are interested in doing some research of your own, I can provide you with the names of some source material that substantiates this claim. There is a book that you could order online called, “The Mysteries of the Mexican Pyramids” by Peter Tompkins (published in 1976 by Harper & Rowe).
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Katzpur said:
It could well be argued that he emulated the style. Obviously, King James English is King James English. But the degree to which he either consciously or unconsciously zeroed in on so many details characteristic of ancient Semetic languages is simply too uncanny to dismiss, in my opinion. But feel free to disagree. ;)
I think i'll stay on the fence for this one.

Katzpur said:
I am beat tonight. Having been under tremendous pressure at work lately, I am really having a hard time sitting down to either do research or type out a reply after having already spent 8 hours on the computer. So, for now, I'll just leave you with a few quick points I thought you might find interesting. More will follow, in a day or so, once I feel more up to posting.
Take as long as you like Kathryn, i'm not going anywhere.

Katzpur said:
1. In Mosiah 11:8, we read, “And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper…”

“Ziff” is not an English word, nor is it mentioned even once in the Bible. It is, however, the Arabic word for a special kind of curved sword, carried in a sheath. It was sometimes used for fighting, but was also used for ornamentation. There is no way in the world that Joseph Smith could possibly have known this, nor would he have known an English word close enough to the meaning of the word “ziff” that he could have used in its place.
To be honest katz, i don't find this compelling at all, for these reasons;

1. Its an Arabic word, not Hebrew or even Aramaic. If we were talking Muslim evidence then i could see it as significant, but its not.
2. Its the word for a sword mixed into a list of metals; gold, silver, brass, iron, copper and ziff - it seems pretty clear from where i'm sitting that ziff, if anything, is some unknown metal. Plus he says "of ziff", not 'including ziff' or 'with ziff'.

Katzpur said:
2. Joseph Smith stated that “the title-page of the Book of Mormon is a literal translation, taken from the very last leaf, on the left hand side of the collection or book of plates, which contained the record which has been translated.” This is significant because, as recently noted by non-Mormon scholar, Walter Burkert, putting the information we expect to see on a “title page” at the end of a document was typical of ancient Middle Eastern texts. This is not something Joseph Smith would have known or thought to do, and it is obviously not something he could have noticed in reading the Bible.
This is very true. Interesting - that's a stumper. I'm officially stumped. :thud:
 
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