What must I believe to be saved?

PopeADope said:

Listen to your heart. God and your ancestors speak to your heart not the ears. They love you tremendously!

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Jesus and John (pbwt) said the Baptism of water, Spirit and fire, what Baptism is and not just getting wet is the receiving of the Holy Spirit and the fire of purification, eliminating your chaff.

And obeying his explanation of how to obey the commandments and obeying them.

Living "On earth as it is in Heaven."

And having the faith that produces good works, another essential part of the Kingdom of God.

Unless one is Baptized....

The reason there are so many differing belief systems that oppose each other is not from God, though he allows it. They are from Satan, "the god of this world" that is deceiving the whole world. 2 Cor. 4:4; Rev. 12:9 Jesus even foretold that weeds would be sown among the "wheat" and grow until the harvest; and, Paul foretold that wolves in sheep's clothing would infiltrate the congregations, and that that false teachers would arise in them and get followers that get followers that go along with them. God has allowed false religion to exist for a reason, but, it's temporary. When Satan is in the abyss for 1,000 years, there will be no more deception. Rev. 20:1-4 However, the truth is still available, just like it has always been; and, God uses those who adhere to his truths in the Bible to spread his truths to others, like Jesus and his apostles and disciples did in the first century. Romans 10:14-18; Luke 4:43; 1 Thess. 2:13; Matt. 24:14 To find God's truths, one must "keep seeking" like Jesus instructed. Luke 11:9; John 17:17 King Solomon wrote that we should dig for it like hidden treasure. Prov. 2:3-6 When we do that, we can take any subject like salvation and study it throughout the Bible and find the true meaning. Prayer for God's spirit is required as we study. Luke 11:13; John 6:63 And, as we learn God's requirements, we must do them. Acts. 5:32 If you would like to know what I learned about salvation when I studied this topic, let me know and I will share it. I can also share the figurative meaning of certain words and phrases like "lake of fire."

PopeADope said:

It is ridiculous to think that people will be tortured forever or have eternal bliss depending on what they believe. Yet that is what so many religious people are preaching, I share the repugnance some atheists have for religious people that preach something so incredibly irrational and the epitome of unjust.

Why would God let people be punished in agony forever because they didn't believe something? Is such a God really loveable?

So, what must I believe to be saved? Please tell me.

I think most of the Religions are many paths to the same summit (heaven). It's just everyone is so different, not everyone can be one Religion. It is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. So, there are many Religions, many different paths to upright living and salvation, for there are many different types of people. We should let people find the path that's right for them.

Regarding the Scripture about the lake of fire, I think that's just a place of purification. Zech 13:9 "This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold."

I don't believe anyone will be punished forever (save for maybe that rare masochist that wants to be), certainly not because they didn't believe something.

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PopeADope said:

It is ridiculous to think that people will be tortured forever or have eternal bliss depending on what they believe. Yet that is what so many religious people are preaching, I share the repugnance some atheists have for religious people that preach something so incredibly irrational and the epitome of unjust.

Why would God let people be punished in agony forever because they didn't believe something? Is such a God really loveable?

So, what must I believe to be saved? Please tell me.

I think most of the Religions are many paths to the same summit (heaven). It's just everyone is so different, not everyone can be one Religion. It is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. So, there are many Religions, many different paths to upright living and salvation, for there are many different types of people. We should let people find the path that's right for them.

Regarding the Scripture about the lake of fire, I think that's just a place of purification. Zech 13:9 "This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold."

I don't believe anyone will be punished forever (save for maybe that rare masochist that wants to be), certainly not because they didn't believe something.

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if you're only interested in going to heaven, or being saved eternally, it probably isn't going to overcome the first death.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

if you're interested in knowing God, then simply contemplate/meditate by baptizing self in the Name, I AM that I am, or I WILL BE what i will be. Exodus 3:14-15

this is the yeast that leavens the whole.

Isaiah 66:5 reinforces this idea.
Hear the word of the Lord,
you who tremble at his word:
“Your own people who hate you,
and exclude you because of my name, have said,
‘Let the Lord be glorified,
that we may see your joy!’
Yet they will be put to shame.



ahmi yat ahmi
tat tvam asi
neti, neti
ahea ashur ahea
nuk pu nuk

Carlita said:

Belief isn't separate from actions. So if that agnostic atheist does what the bible wants him to do, the point of the actions is to build trust and a relationship with god not just believe in him.

If the agnostic atheist don't form trust and devote themselves to developing their growth in christ, then of course they won't get anywhere. Anyone can do actions but jesus taught that actions and faith/trust go hand in hand. Salvation is dependent on both.

But by itself, faith does nothing but says you trust god without acting on that trust. Actions alone does nothing because why are you doing something for someone you don't even believe in. It has to be both.

Actions are highly emphasized in scripture and deeds are judged not faith. So that's the difference.

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But what if one is an agnostic atheist like me who considers the possibility that God and Jesus are real, but think that they could very well not be real due to the idea that no God could have someone go to hell and remain there forever? This person would think that since a kind and loving God should not be feared and should not have such horrible morals, then this person might think it would then be a waste of time to live his/her life according to the bible since such a God might very well not be real.

I am undecided when it comes to the existence of God and the afterlife which means I am an agnostic atheist. But the only way I would dedicate my life to the biblical teachings would be if I actually believed God existed. Otherwise, I am wasting my time and my life over something that could very well be likely to not exist since we are talking here a God who is claimed to be all loving and all just, but appears to have a horrible and cruel sense of morality. Therefore, not only am I not going to dedicate my life to obeying and serving this God, but I also can never trust his claimed holy righteousness and moral integrity.

Would I go to hell over that? Or would God completely understand where I am coming from and give me a 2nd chance after I die if he is real? If I were to instead just go to hell and God were to choose to never get me out, then that further makes me doubt God's sense of morality as being all loving, all just, and merciful. It also makes me further doubt the existence of this God.

The Transcended Omniverse said:

But what if one is an agnostic atheist like me who considers the possibility that God and Jesus are real, but think that they could very well not be real due to the idea that no God could have someone go to hell and remain there forever?

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How would god's and jesus' existence depend on how they punish someone?

Isn't that like saying, sara doesn't know her mother exists because every time she does something wrong, she beats her?

The Transcended Omniverse said:

This person would think that since a kind and loving God should not be feared and should not have such horrible morals, then this person might think it would then be a waste of time to live his/her life according to the bible since such a God might very well not be real.

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Christianity is about faith and trust not certainty and facts. People believe god exist. They have faith in jesus.

How would you know that love between you are your spouse (if you have one) exist if you don't develop a relationship with each other through trust, patience, and interaction?

The Transcended Omniverse said:

I am undecided when it comes to the existence of God and the afterlife which means I am an agnostic atheist. But the only way I would dedicate my life to the biblical teachings would be if I actually believed God existed. Otherwise, I am wasting my time and my life over something that could very well be likely to not exist since we are talking here a God who is claimed to be all loving and all just, but appears to have a horrible and cruel sense of morality. Therefore, not only am I not going to dedicate my life to obeying and serving this God, but I also can never trust his claimed holy righteousness and moral integrity.

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Everyone believes differently. I'm not an agnostic atheist; but, I do agree that if you follow a teaching you must believe the authenticity (and existence) of the actual teacher. Jesus taught they both go hand in hand.

Like any relationship, it starts with action rather than waiting. If you feel it's a waste of time to devote yourself to christ so he can "exist" in you and the body of christ, that is up to you. That's how Christ exist is through his body not a dude just appearing out of the middle of nowhere. As for god, since you don't believe in god, why go through mental gymnastics over it unless you want to believe and can't?

Then that starts with action and trust even if you think right now it will not get anyway, you may be surprised. Many christians have revelations even on RF. So, who knows?

The Transcended Omniverse said:

Would I go to hell over that? Or would God completely understand where I am coming from and give me a 2nd chance after I die if he is real?

If I were to instead just go to hell and God were to choose to never get me out, then that further makes me doubt God's sense of morality as being all loving, all just, and merciful. It also makes me further doubt the existence of this God.

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Unbelievers are equated to individuals without god's grace. Without god's grace and salvation, christianity teaches by default you suffer. Whether it's hell or just death depends on the denomination. But instead of going off the people, try to read the bible with an open mind from not just a literal point of view, switch perspectives and see it symbolically. Try different views of interpreting the bible. Maybe god will talk to you in a way foreign to other believers who are pressured to believing (and even talking) like their peers.

I know god, hell, heaven, angels, and so forth do not exist. So, I feel it is up to how you see god (which doesn't need to be one specific way) and how you interpret things that life throws at you will help you decide whether to dedicate yourself to find out he exist or just let it be and not waste your time. From what I read in scripture, the only unforgivable sin is completely rejecting christ. If you are just growing in christ and asking questions (which is perfectly normal) I don't see how you are sinning. Just scripture says salvation is in deeds and faith. So it's a learning process. A journey.

I personally see no benefit in devotion to christ. However, if you feel it's worth jumping off that cliff (in a good way), go for it.

Carlita said:

How would god's and jesus' existence depend on how they punish someone?

Isn't that like saying, sara doesn't know her mother exists because every time she does something wrong, she beats her?



Christianity is about faith and trust not certainty and facts. People believe god exist. They have faith in jesus.

How would you know that love between you are your spouse (if you have one) exist if you don't develop a relationship with each other through trust, patience, and interaction?



Everyone believes differently. I'm not an agnostic atheist; but, I do agree that if you follow a teaching you must believe the authenticity (and existence) of the actual teacher. Jesus taught they both go hand in hand.

Like any relationship, it starts with action rather than waiting. If you feel it's a waste of time to devote yourself to christ so he can "exist" in you and the body of christ, that is up to you. That's how Christ exist is through his body not a dude just appearing out of the middle of nowhere. As for god, since you don't believe in god, why go through mental gymnastics over it unless you want to believe and can't?

Then that starts with action and trust even if you think right now it will not get anyway, you may be surprised. Many christians have revelations even on RF. So, who knows?



Unbelievers are equated to individuals without god's grace. Without god's grace and salvation, christianity teaches by default you suffer. Whether it's hell or just death depends on the denomination. But instead of going off the people, try to read the bible with an open mind from not just a literal point of view, switch perspectives and see it symbolically. Try different views of interpreting the bible. Maybe god will talk to you in a way foreign to other believers who are pressured to believing (and even talking) like their peers.

I know god, hell, heaven, angels, and so forth do not exist. So, I feel it is up to how you see god (which doesn't need to be one specific way) and how you interpret things that life throws at you will help you decide whether to dedicate yourself to find out he exist or just let it be and not waste your time. From what I read in scripture, the only unforgivable sin is completely rejecting christ. If you are just growing in christ and asking questions (which is perfectly normal) I don't see how you are sinning. Just scripture says salvation is in deeds and faith. So it's a learning process. A journey.

I personally see no benefit in devotion to christ. However, if you feel it's worth jumping off that cliff (in a good way), go for it.

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I am just worrying about the possibility of me going to hell since I worry that this God is real despite my doubts of his existence. But, at the same time, I do not wish to waste my time and my life obeying and serving this God who might not even be real. That puts me in a stuck situation here. I worry that if I just simply ignore obeying this God if he is real, that this would result in me ending up in hell and God never getting me out.

The Transcended Omniverse said:

I am just worrying about the possibility of me going to hell since I worry that this God is real despite my doubts of his existence. But, at the same time, I do not wish to waste my time and my life obeying and serving this God who might not even be real. That puts me in a stuck situation here. I worry that if I just simply ignore obeying this God if he is real, that this would result in me ending up in hell and God never getting me out.

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What is hell to you?

Many people go off others or the bible and forget their relationship with god has to do with god not the bible and not on others. It's all what you personally believe and no one else (if you're not into denominational worship).

If you are afraid you will go to hell, then weigh the pros and cons of what you understand of the belief and how you personally interpret it and go from there.

Reminds me of a song by Billy Joel. One verse says "I rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints."

What do you personally believe about hell?
What, to you, is fact?

I mean, for example, for me I can jump hoops and try to believe in god and the bible. However, since I don't see how it correlates to reality, it will never make sense to me.

What about you?

Carlita said:

What is hell to you?

Many people go off others or the bible and forget their relationship with god has to do with god not the bible and not on others. It's all what you personally believe and no one else (if you're not into denominational worship).

If you are afraid you will go to hell, then weigh the pros and cons of what you understand of the belief and how you personally interpret it and go from there.

Reminds me of a song by Billy Joel. One verse says "I rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints."

What do you personally believe about hell?
What, to you, is fact?

I mean, for example, for me I can jump hoops and try to believe in god and the bible. However, since I don't see how it correlates to reality, it will never make sense to me.

What about you?

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I don't know what is likely to be true. All I see is a philosophical debate going on here where one side argues against the other in regards to the existence of hell or a God and such debates just get nowhere. That leaves me in a position where I don't know whether the eternal hell spoken of in the bible is real or not which is a lake of fire. There is no way for me to see what is more likely to be true. I can only hope that me choosing to carry on with my normal daily life does not result in me going to any sort of hellish afterlife after I die.

The Transcended Omniverse said:

I don't know what is likely to be true. All I see is a philosophical debate going on here where one side argues against the other in regards to the existence of hell or a God and such debates just get nowhere. That leaves me in a position where I don't know whether the eternal hell spoken of in the bible is real or not which is a lake of fire. There is no way for me to see what is more likely to be true. I can only hope that me choosing to carry on with my normal daily life does not result in me going to any sort of hellish afterlife after I die.

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My confusion is why believe all of that if you don't know and/or belief god exists? Even if he does, why the god of the bible?

Why torture yourself with "what ifs"?

What is hell to you?

When you look outside or maybe reflect on your own beliefs not the bible and not other christians, do you see hell as part of reality?

If not, what is there to be afraid of but someone else's claim that is not part of your reality?

Nichiren Shonin speaks of The Buddha's view of hell and how if we are left in delusions, we will be trapped with the hungry spirits in hell depending on what we do (our karma). There are many versions of consequences in the afterlife whether it's dependant on ones state of being, mind, or our spirit suffering from deeds on earth.

What do you believe?

PopeADope said:

It is ridiculous to think that people will be tortured forever or have eternal bliss depending on what they believe. Yet that is what so many religious people are preaching, I share the repugnance some atheists have for religious people that preach something so incredibly irrational and the epitome of unjust.

Why would God let people be punished in agony forever because they didn't believe something? Is such a God really loveable?

So, what must I believe to be saved? Please tell me.

I think most of the Religions are many paths to the same summit (heaven). It's just everyone is so different, not everyone can be one Religion. It is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. So, there are many Religions, many different paths to upright living and salvation, for there are many different types of people. We should let people find the path that's right for them.

Regarding the Scripture about the lake of fire, I think that's just a place of purification. Zech 13:9 "This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold."

I don't believe anyone will be punished forever (save for maybe that rare masochist that wants to be), certainly not because they didn't believe something.

Click to expand...

I would say believe whatever seems more probable.

PopeADope said:

What must I believe to be saved?

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Well that depends on what you believe.

PopeADope said:

It is ridiculous to think that people will be tortured forever or have eternal bliss depending on what they believe. Yet that is what so many religious people are preaching, I share the repugnance some atheists have for religious people that preach something so incredibly irrational and the epitome of unjust.

Why would God let people be punished in agony forever because they didn't believe something? Is such a God really loveable?

So, what must I believe to be saved? Please tell me.

I think most of the Religions are many paths to the same summit (heaven). It's just everyone is so different, not everyone can be one Religion. It is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. So, there are many Religions, many different paths to upright living and salvation, for there are many different types of people. We should let people find the path that's right for them.

Regarding the Scripture about the lake of fire, I think that's just a place of purification. Zech 13:9 "This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold."

I don't believe anyone will be punished forever (save for maybe that rare masochist that wants to be), certainly not because they didn't believe something.

Click to expand...

Sometimes I think we misunderstand the meaning of "belief" as it is used in scriptures. The scriptures assume an integrity in a human being in which they do according to that which they believe. Therefore it assumes that those who believe in God and Christ do according to what God and Christ have commanded them. It also assumes that those who do not do according to what God and Christ have commanded them are refusing to do so because they do not believe in God and Christ.

For this assumption to be true two things must exist - firstly the term belief must denote a deeply ingrained and active conviction of some idea. Secondly, it must involve an active, deliberate choice.

These two assumptions have a few implications: For one it means that those who merely believe there is a God because that is what they grew up being taught but who otherwise do not conform their lives to the commandments are not actual believers. It also means someone who has never properly been taught of Christ by someone sent of God whose testimony was confirmed by the Holy Ghost, does not qualify as an unbeliever.

And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved... Acts 16:30-31

I believe placing one's faith and trust in Jesus for forgiveness of sins and eternal life is Enough.

JESUS IS ENOUGH
Adam's Road Ministry | "I am not ashamed of the Gospel"

PopeADope said:

It is ridiculous to think that people will be tortured forever or have eternal bliss depending on what they believe. Yet that is what so many religious people are preaching, I share the repugnance some atheists have for religious people that preach something so incredibly irrational and the epitome of unjust.

Why would God let people be punished in agony forever because they didn't believe something? Is such a God really loveable?

So, what must I believe to be saved? Please tell me.

I think most of the Religions are many paths to the same summit (heaven). It's just everyone is so different, not everyone can be one Religion. It is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. So, there are many Religions, many different paths to upright living and salvation, for there are many different types of people. We should let people find the path that's right for them.

Regarding the Scripture about the lake of fire, I think that's just a place of purification. Zech 13:9 "This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold."

I don't believe anyone will be punished forever (save for maybe that rare masochist that wants to be), certainly not because they didn't believe something.

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I don't think one can be saved by believing in Jesus the son of God because there is no son of God. So, what's left? I don't think it is possible. I believe God has assumed a policy of nonintervention. It happened after God gave up on humans. That was when he learned they don't obey His commandments. I think there is more to it, but those are the essentials. I don't think there is salvation for any of God's earthly creatures. Sad, but true. So, just go on trying to live by your conscience. At least, you won't have long guilt spells. Oh, you can listen to preachers or other clerics and believe the old salvation story. Maybe, that is best, then you have hope, even though it is unfounded.

What must I believe to be saved?

If you smell smoke, get out of there.

Matthew 7:13-14 New International Version (NIV)

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

If many people are walking in that road as in, many - get out of there!

PopeADope said:

It is ridiculous to think that people will be tortured forever or have eternal bliss depending on what they believe. Yet that is what so many religious people are preaching, I share the repugnance some atheists have for religious people that preach something so incredibly irrational and the epitome of unjust.

Why would God let people be punished in agony forever because they didn't believe something? Is such a God really loveable?

So, what must I believe to be saved? Please tell me.

I think most of the Religions are many paths to the same summit (heaven). It's just everyone is so different, not everyone can be one Religion. It is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. So, there are many Religions, many different paths to upright living and salvation, for there are many different types of people. We should let people find the path that's right for them.

Regarding the Scripture about the lake of fire, I think that's just a place of purification. Zech 13:9 "This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold."

I don't believe anyone will be punished forever (save for maybe that rare masochist that wants to be), certainly not because they didn't believe something.

Click to expand...

From a Baha'i perspective its by having both faith and actions that we are 'saved'. For a Christian that means having both faith and living the life in accordance with the Teachings of Christ. However it is the same for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and other religions though the language to explain the terms 'faith', 'deeds' and 'saved'. will be different. So in the past peoples found 'salvation' by living in accordance with the best teachings of the religion they were part of. It makes no sense as you have rightly highlighted that someone who has grown up in a non Christian culture, should be condemned to hell according to the standards of another religion.

In the age we are living in, religion has fallen into disrepute, and the prophecy from Isaiah that Jesus spoke as recorded in the book of Matthew needs to be considered:

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

The sun, moon, and stars refer to the conditions of religion and so in this day the stars have fallen from heaven in that the saints and learned people of faith have become worldly and what they teach is no longer reflective of the heavenly Teachings of their Founder (The moon and the sun). In fact the conditions of religion have declined to such an extent that we may be better off without such a corrupted religion. The teaching in regards to an exclusive Christianity is an example, as there are no words that Jesus has spoken that directly supports this interpretation, yet many Christians believe it.

The decline in religion is also accompanied by the return of another great religious teacher to assist humanity to reconnect to God again. The Christian terminology is the Return of Christ.

Hope that helps.

Ask yourself what "saved" means, first. I think many just assume it's like getting a ticket to an eternal theme park. Surely salvation means more than just a never ending vacation.

You know what's weird besides the fact that I do believe in God. Everyone keeps me from one person or guilt. They say that I'm the love prisoner but this person has done no wrong to me. I have had one relationship were they intentionally lead on and did things and got that point and wanted that. Everyone wants to threaten trick or abuse. Obey Obey... then they cut down or tell me that I have the wrong perception. Must obey obey. I say stuff about it then it sounds like paranoia to people.. then they want to hand me a posse to go off tell me I don't have enough dreams whatever it is, isn't true. And they attacked my confidence right away. I cant get on even certain websites like facebook because strange stuff popped up that I didnt even agree too.
Why do they care about that and say they care about you or spy so much. I cant really have a mutual respect for that. I'm very reclusive to it. But then again if I don't then I'm supposedly not fitting in society.. they make buck wish list that mean I should just give up or harm in brainwashed physical ways.

I believe Paul says it this way:

Acts 16:30 and brought them out and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.