The Serpent in the Wilderness

Ben Avraham · Oct 23, 2016

The Serpent in the Wilderness

Numbers 21:9 (JPS) "Then Moses made a copper serpent and mounted it on a standard; and when any one
was bitten by a serpent, he would look at the copper serpent and recover." Christians love to read
this text and to find in it a reference to Jesus. Christian preconceived notions are the cause of this illusion because, If we focus on that text for the truth, it is right there almost in every line.

1 - And when any one was bitten by a serpent... It means that when any one was moved by the desire to rebel, as rebellions had become the order of the day among the Israelites in the wilderness,

2 - He would look... which means, he would remember.

3 - At the copper serpent which was a reference to the longest and cruelest captivity ever in Egypt...

4 - And recover. Here, "recover" means he would repent from his desire to rebel.

And that was the point for Moses to build the copper serpent in the wilderness.

GreenKepi · Oct 26, 2016

Okay...you'd mentioned Christians that have preconceived notions and find it a reference to Jesus...well, Jesus used it as a reference to Himself.

In John 3:14-15. When the bronze snake was hung on the pole, the Israelites didn't know the meaning that Jesus would bring to this event. Jesus explained that just as the Israelites were healed of their sickness by looking at the snake on the pole, all believers today can be saved from sin by looking to Jesus' death on the cross.

It was not the snake that healed the people but their belief that God could heal them. This belief was demonstrated by their obedience to God's instructions in the same way, Christians should continue to look to Christ (Hebrews 12:2). The bronze snake was used 700 years later as an idol and had to be destroyed by Hezekiah...however, as a Jewish person...you won't believe this....

Kelly of the Phoenix · Oct 27, 2016

The only problem with using this as a metaphor for Jesus is that the snake was eventually correctly seen as an idol and destroyed. Kinda ruins the feel for it, doesn't it?

GreenKepi · Oct 27, 2016

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
The only problem with using this as a metaphor for Jesus is that the snake was eventually correctly seen as an idol and destroyed. Kinda ruins the feel for it, doesn't it?

No...not really. I believe that God destroys 'souls' and that He will destroy the souls of the unsaved. As Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 - "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna"...(which is the Lake of Fire...the Second Death)....

Ben Avraham · Oct 28, 2016

GreenKepi said:
Okay...you'd mentioned Christians that have preconceived notions and find it a reference to Jesus...well, Jesus used it as a reference to Himself.

In John 3:14-15. When the bronze snake was hung on the pole, the Israelites didn't know the meaning that Jesus would bring to this event. Jesus explained that just as the Israelites were healed of their sickness by looking at the snake on the pole, all believers today can be saved from sin by looking to Jesus' death on the cross.

It was not the snake that healed the people but their belief that God could heal them. This belief was demonstrated by their obedience to God's instructions in the same way, Christians should continue to look to Christ (Hebrews 12:2). The bronze snake was used 700 years later as an idol and had to be destroyed by Hezekiah...however, as a Jewish person...you won't believe this....

savagewind · Oct 28, 2016

GreenKepi said:
No...not really. I believe that God destroys 'souls' and that He will destroy the souls of the unsaved. As Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 - "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna"...(which is the Lake of Fire...the Second Death)....

Matthew 10:28 does not say "one" will destroy both body and soul.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the ~~One who can~~ being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna

It is written you will reap what you sow.
What Matthew says is, "you should fear however the being able both body and soul to destroy in hell."
I am pretty sure no apostle ever referred to Almighty God as "the".

It is also believed that something you might do will stumble another one who had put faith in Jesus.

What is written about he who does that? Matthew 18:6

"The" stumbling of another is what causes destruction to the person who stumbles another.

Romans 1:32 describes "the" that can destroy the soul and the body. Romans 6:16

Ben Avraham · Oct 28, 2016

GreenKepi said:
Okay...you'd mentioned Christians that have preconceived notions and find it a reference to Jesus...well, Jesus used it as a reference to Himself.

In John 3:14-15. When the bronze snake was hung on the pole, the Israelites didn't know the meaning that Jesus would bring to this event. Jesus explained that just as the Israelites were healed of their sickness by looking at the snake on the pole, all believers today can be saved from sin by looking to Jesus' death on the cross.

It was not the snake that healed the people but their belief that God could heal them. This belief was demonstrated by their obedience to God's instructions in the same way, Christians should continue to look to Christ (Hebrews 12:2). The bronze snake was used 700 years later as an idol and had to be destroyed by Hezekiah...however, as a Jewish person...you won't believe this....

Now, who wrote that reference if neither Jesus nor any of his disciples wrote any thing at all? The author of that gospel attributed to John was a Hellenist former disciple of Paul. He wrote that, much later after Paul had written his Letters and, it is only obvious that he would write according to the gospel of Paul and interpreted the Serpent in the Wilderness according to Christian preconceived notions. Moses or whoever wrote that about the serpent did not have Jesus in mind and I guarantee you the truth of what I am saying. That episode was written as an allegory in memory of things passed in Egypt.

I do believe that Hezekiah had to destroy the bronze serpent because many among the People were committing acts of idolatry. It is written in the Tanach. I would not believe if it was in the NT.

Ben Avraham · Oct 28, 2016

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
The only problem with using this as a metaphor for Jesus is that the snake was eventually correctly seen as an idol and destroyed. Kinda ruins the feel for it, doesn't it?

No, it doesn't. The bronze serpent was not metaphorical but what it was meant to signify, yes. Now, since the text is Jewish
and was written by a Jewish author, it is only obvious that the Jewish interpretation is akin to the truth.

ukok102nak · Oct 28, 2016

~;> the truth
belongs to god the father and
to his only begotten son
and unto all that is holy
but
not to the classification of humans into groups based on physical traits, ancestry, genetics or social relations, or the relations between them.
as it is written
:read:
Deuteronomy 10:16
So circumcise your uncircumcised hearts, and don't be impossible to deal with any longer.
17 The LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, powerful, and awe-inspiring God. He never plays favorites and never takes a bribe.
18 He makes sure orphans and widows receive justice. He loves foreigners and gives them food and clothes.
19 So you should love foreigners, because you were foreigners living in Egypt.

even when
the original hebrew people were known as the choosen people of god before
their descendants begun to
interbreeding
to groups of people who have differences and similarities in biological traits deemed by society to be socially significant
during that time
christjesus was there in spirit form
thats why
the verses from Deuteronomy 10:16_19
is perfectly corroborate unto this verses
John 8:54
Jesus said, "If I bring glory to myself, my glory is nothing. My Father is the one who gives me glory, and you say that he is your God.
55 Yet, you haven't known him. However, I know him. If I would say that I didn't know him, I would be a liar like all of you. But I do know him, and I do what he says.
56 Your father Abraham was pleased to see that my day was coming. He saw it and was happy."
57 The Jews said to Jesus, "You're not even fifty years old. How could you have seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus told them, "I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am."

thats one of many reasons why
christjesus was never known in his
human name during the time of moses
coz christjesus is in spirit form
like his almighty father
though there is written words from the prophet that telling somethin about
christjesus during the time of moses
:read:
Exodus 3:14
God answered Moses, "I Am Who I Am. This is what you must say to the people of Israel: 'I Am has sent me to you.'"

the verse above perfectly the same as this verse says
:read:
John 8:58
Jesus told them, "I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am."

not many could accept this truth that
only those angels
were the beings that been seen literally
by humans
during the time of moses
so as it is written
:read:
Exodus 14:19 The Messenger of God, who had been in front of the Israelites, moved behind them. So the column of smoke moved from in front of the Israelites and stood behind them
20 between the Egyptian camp and the Israelite camp. The column of smoke was there when darkness came, and it lit up the night. Neither side came near the other all night long.
21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea. All that night the LORD pushed back the sea with a strong east wind and turned the sea into dry ground. The water divided,
22 and the Israelites went through the middle of the sea on dry ground. The water stood like a wall on their right and on their left.

by the way
did anyone notice that
no one in the line of those people who went to moses outside of egypt
ever dare to fight the egyptian soldiers
:read:
Exodus 14:10
As Pharaoh approached, the Israelites looked up and saw that the Egyptians were coming after them. Terrified, the Israelites cried out to the LORD.
11 They said to Moses, "Did you bring us out into the desert to die because there were no graves in Egypt? Look what you've done by bringing us out of Egypt!
12 Didn't we tell you in Egypt, 'Leave us alone! Let us go on serving the Egyptians'? It would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die in the desert!"

lucky for those people
we were there during those time
(just kidding)
what we meant is
the lord who is merciful never
put any isralites unto doing somethin
that the lord god almighty father
prepared for them
and that is
"thou shalt not murder" or
though shalt not kill
but despite of that
the evil one deceived them by
killing an innocent man
read the book of numbers for more info

:ty:

godbless
unto all always

Ben Avraham · Oct 30, 2016

ukok102nak said:
~;> the truth belongs to god the father and to his only begotten son and unto all that is holy but not to the classification of humans into groups based on physical traits, ancestry, genetics or social relations, or the relations between them. as it is written :read: Deuteronomy 10:16 So circumcise your uncircumcised hearts, and don't be impossible to deal with any longer. 17 The LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, powerful, and awe-inspiring God. He never plays favorites and never takes a bribe. 18 He makes sure orphans and widows receive justice. He loves foreigners and gives them food and clothes. 19 So you should love foreigners, because you were foreigners living in Egypt.

The only begotten Son of God is to be interpreted within the collective concept of a People in Israel, the son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord. Jesus was only part of the Son of God aka Israel.

Where is your assumption coming from that Israel is not circumcised in the heart? From Paul, right? If Israel was not by nature circumcised in the heart, HaShem would not have allowed our return to the Promised Land. Now, if individually some are not circumcised in the heart, it does not mean that the Lord is going to send the whole People back to exile. You wait until then to assume that we are not circumcised in the heart. For the time being, HaShem blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who curse Israel. Perhaps you need to mind yourself about that. It is in Numbers 24:5,9. (JPS)

Eliab ben Benjamin · Oct 30, 2016

Ben Avraham said:
The Serpent in the Wilderness

.

Oh i got bit by that one ... on my 50 acres of forest in NSW Australia ..

a Red Bellied black Snake .... bit me on my lower leg,
(silly me shuffling my bare feet in the leaf litter whilst using a fallen tree as a toilet seat)
after 4 hours my muscles started to stiffen so was taken to hospital ...

Tumah · Oct 30, 2016

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
The only problem with using this as a metaphor for Jesus is that the snake was eventually correctly seen as an idol and destroyed. Kinda ruins the feel for it, doesn't it?

Nope!

ukok102nak · Oct 30, 2016

~;> god is a spirit from everlasting to evelasting
that means god the almighty father and
his only begotten son our lord and saviour is also a spirit from everlasting to everlasting
and
israel is not a spirit
as easy and as simple as that
as it is written
:read:
1 Chronicles 16:36
Thanks be to the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting." Then all the people said amen and praised the LORD.

your promise land is from this world
and
our promise land is not from this world
thats the very difference
between you and me
coz it seems that your not a real jewish afterall theres no real hebrews
that only thinks of this world
as their promise land

our what (havent you read
what the scripture says)
were not assuming
for we are reading what the context is telling about the written words of god
from the scriptures
and
your answers proved that
your heart is not circumcised
nor neither your ears
coz you answered the verse incorrectly
again
but we are not surpriced
afterall it is written
and you never read what is written at all

so you admit what are written in the tanach are true
then why just accept the truth
that those people before were been
deceived by the evil one
by killing an innocent man
read the book of numbers for more info such as this
:read:
Numbers 15:26
So the whole community of Israel will be forgiven, including foreigners who are living among them, since all the people were involved in the unintentional wrongdoing.
So the whole community of Israel will be forgiven, including foreigners who are living among them, since all the people were involved in the unintentional wrongdoing.
* (to make the story short but not shorter as you imagine)
Numbers 15:30
"But any native-born Israelite or foreigner who deliberately does something wrong insults the LORD and must be excluded from the people.

perhaps you read the whole chapter
and learn the difference
between a real angel
and
a real somethin evil who
disguises himself as an angel of light.
So it's not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants who have God's approval. In the end they will get what they deserve.

:ty:

godbless
unto all always

Ben Avraham said:
The only begotten Son of God is to be interpreted within the collective concept of a People in Israel, the son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord. Jesus was only part of the Son of God aka Israel.

Where is your assumption coming from that Israel is not circumcised in the heart? From Paul, right? If Israel was not by nature circumcised in the heart, HaShem would not have allowed our return to the Promised Land. Now, if individually some are not circumcised in the heart, it does not mean that the Lord is going to send the whole People back to exile. You wait until then to assume that we are not circumcised in the heart. For the time being, HaShem blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who curse Israel. Perhaps you need to mind yourself about that. It is in Numbers 24:5,9. (JPS)

Ben Avraham · Oct 30, 2016

ukok102nak said:
~;> god is a spirit from everlasting to evelasting
that means god the almighty father and
his only begotten son our lord and saviour is also a spirit from everlasting to everlasting
and
israel is not a spirit
as easy and as simple as that
as it is written
:read:
1 Chronicles 16:36
Thanks be to the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting." Then all the people said amen and praised the LORD.

your promise land is from this world
and
our promise land is not from this world
thats the very difference
between you and me
coz it seems that your not a real jewis afterall theres no real hebrews
that only thinks of this world
as their promise land

our what (havent you read
what the scripture says)
were not assuming
for we are reading what the context is telling about the written words of god
from the scriptures
and
your answers proved that
your heart is not circumcised
nor neither your ears
coz you answered the verse incorrectly
again
but we are not surpriced
afterall it is written
and you never read what is written at all

so you admit what are written in the tanach are true
then why just accept the truth
that those people before were been
deceived by the evil one
by killing an innocent man
read the book of numbers for more info such as this
:read:
Numbers 15:26
So the whole community of Israel will be forgiven, including foreigners who are living among them, since all the people were involved in the unintentional wrongdoing.
So the whole community of Israel will be forgiven, including foreigners who are living among them, since all the people were involved in the unintentional wrongdoing.
* (to make the story short but not shorter as you imagine)
Numbers 15:30
"But any native-born Israelite or foreigner who deliberately does something wrong insults the LORD and must be excluded from the people.

perhaps you read the whole chapter
and learn the difference
between a real angel
and
a real somethin evil who
disguises himsel7f as an angel of light.
So it's not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants who have God's approval. In the end they will get what they deserve.

:ty:

godbless
unto all always

Ben Avraham · Oct 30, 2016

ukok102nak said:
~;> god is a spirit from everlasting to evelasting that means god the almighty father and his only begotten son our lord and saviour is also a spirit from everlasting to everlasting
and israel is not a spirit as easy and as simple as that as it is written :read: 1 Chronicles 16:36 Thanks be to the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting." Then all the people said amen and praised the LORD. your promise land is from this world and our promise land is not from this world thats the very difference between you and me coz it seems that your not a real jewis afterall theres no real hebrews coz you answered the verse incorrectly again but we are not surpriced
afterall it is written and you never read what is written at all

Wow! So, Jesus was a spirit! How could spirits drink and eat and, of course digest his food like any one else? And mind you! he spent 40 days after his resurrection having dinners with his disciples till he was taken back to heaven. See what this will take you if you go for the details? Oh yes, my promised land is of this world, but at least I enjoy it as long as I live. You keep waiting for your promised land and, when you get tired you die and go to it in the grave.

ukok102nak · Oct 30, 2016

~;> thats one of many reasons
why your heart is uncircumcised and
also your ears
as they say
is there anythin that comes from
everlasting to evelasting
who drink and eat
without havin a human form
for flesh and blood wont inherent the kingdom of our almighty god the father
from everlasting to evelasting
and also his only begotten son christjesus from everlasting to everlasting
our lord and saviour

probably you wont know the mystery
behind the uncorruptable body
coz theres no eternal salvation from you
as what we've expected before
your not a real servant of god
and the god we are sayin is the one
who created all the good things
in this reality
coz your god is the god of this world
(those leaders and fanatics of triune god worshippers could easily been distinguised
and it seems you have their belief as well)
and again
our god is not from this world and
neither his kingdom is

:ty:

godbless
unto all always

Ben Avraham said:
Wow! So, Jesus was a spirit! How could spirits drink and eat and, of course digest his food like any one else? And mind you! he spent 40 days after his resurrection having dinners with his disciples till he was taken back to heaven. See what this will take you if you go for the details? Oh yes, my promised land is of this world, but at least I enjoy it as long as I live. You keep waiting for your promised land and, when you get tired you die and go to it in the grave.

ukok102nak · Oct 30, 2016

~;> triune god fanatics were very
different from catholics and protestants and all the existing religions that were existed
for they were the people who
deceived many people before and even
deceived those good gentiles and pagans
from the past

:ty:

godbless
unto all always

ukok102nak · Oct 30, 2016

~;> even our fellows who are
atheist and agnostics and everyone in our group
who has their own belief
shall never said any lie
such as claiming they were jewish
or using the oldest trick in the books to disguised somethin just to deceive humans
for there is somethin
in their minds and hearts tellin
that they are not all knowin
but still hoping
that there is somethin out there
who knows everythin who is good and cannot lie
and knows everything
from everlasting to everlasting

:ty:

godbless
unto all always

Ben Avraham · Oct 31, 2016

ukok102nak said:
~;> even our fellows who are atheist and agnostics and everyone in our group who has their own belief shall never said any lie such as claiming they were jewish or using the oldest trick in the books to disguised somethin just to deceive humans for there is somethin in their minds and hearts tellin that they are not all knowin but still hoping that there is somethin out there who knows everythin who is good and cannot lie and knows everything from everlasting to everlasting.

The name is gullible; the one who believes every thing.

Ben Avraham · Oct 31, 2016

ukok102nak said:
~;> thats one of many reasons
why your heart is uncircumcised and
also your ears
as they say
is there anythin that comes from
everlasting to evelasting
who drink and eat
without havin a human form
for flesh and blood wont inherent the kingdom of our almighty god the father
from everlasting to evelasting
and also his only begotten son christjesus from everlasting to everlasting
our lord and saviour

probably you wont know the mystery
behind the uncorruptable body
coz theres no eternal salvation from you
as what we've expected before
your not a real servant of god
and the god we are sayin is the one
who created all the good things
in this reality
coz your god is the god of this world
(those leaders and fanatics of triune god worshippers could easily been distinguised
and it seems you have their belief as well)
and again
our god is not from this world and
neither his kingdom is
behind the uncorruptable body
coz theres no eternal salvation from you
as what we've expected before
your not a real servant of god
and the god we are sayin is the one
who created all the good things
in this reality
coz your god is the god of this world
(those leaders and fanatics of triune god worshippers could easily been distinguised
and it seems you have their belief as well)
and again
our god is not from this world and
neither his kingdom is

:ty:

godbless
unto all always

"Drinking and eating without having a human form! Perhaps he went to the restroom to release himself from his digestion of that food he ate with his disciple without having a human form! That's called chronic gullibility. Perhaps you should pay a visit to an atheist to release this load down from your shoulders.

:ty:

godbless
unto all always[/QUOTE]

ukok102nak said:
~;> thats one of many reasons
why your heart is uncircumcised and
also your ears
as they say
is there anythin that comes from
everlasting to evelasting
who drink and eat
without havin a human form
for flesh and blood wont inherent the kingdom of our almighty god the father
from everlasting to evelasting
and also his only begotten son christjesus from everlasting to everlasting
our lord and saviour

probably you wont know the mystery

The Serpent in the Wilderness

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