meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
Yeah he just asked a question.I don't want to kill the thread.
The OP was all about the Nativity accounts.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Were There Two Different Jesus?
- Thread starter Ben Avraham
- Start date
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
That is true.
So let's resurrect the thread, as written in the op by Ben Avraham:-
So you are right. He just asked a question.
My answer is that his bullet points 1-7 do indeed show evidencve that the Nativity story was a fabrication, built upon current happenings, these used as Truth-Pills.
That is the Thread. All I have written is three initial points which propose that the Timeline, the need for Galilean Jews to travel from Galilee for a Judean, Samarian, Idumean Census, etc...... is just rubbish.
I also answered the Thread Title:- 'Were there two different Jesus'?
I wrote that there were indeeed two different Jesus's in the last week of the mission, the week of the feast of the Passover.
How could my posts be killing this thread?
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Isn't Barabbas the "other" Jesus? I mean, technically?
But if one friend is talking about the plot to the Wizard of Oz and one sounds more like the plot of Wicked ... which one is telling the most accurate tale?
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
I think so as well.........
Exactly.....
But I do marvel at the individual incidents which almost certainly occured, and then were selected and 'wrapped' into the required story.
Herod killed so many of his sons that Augustus used to joke that he would rather be one of Herod's pigs than one of his sons! = Herod killed the kiddies.
The Census did take place, = all Jews will report to their ancestral towns!
All satellite townships around Jerusalem were packed full of visitors during major feasts. = There was no room at the inn.
etc etc.....
By the way, I have read that Galilean Jews were relatively converts to judaism, possibly circa Babylon. So maybe no Galilean Jews were related to any of the old Kings....?
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
Interesting stuff there..
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
Well speaking then are you or would you say there are two different Gods of the old testament; (I know that had a run a awhile back) But even though something is beautifully written with 1st person 2nd and 3rd person narrative (not really something I can point to in Jeremiah)
But else were..Goes like this....
**************************************************************“O God” about “God, your God,”********************************************************************************
It is good to give thanks to Yahweh, and to sing praises to your
name, Elyon”
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness
Tekoan woman and of Joab
speak to King David of “the king” and “his throne” and “his servant” (2 Sam
14:9, 22). Neither do we flinch when Jesus’ prayer opens “Father . . . glorify
your Son, so that the Son may glorify you” (John 17:1).17
“I will betroth you to me in faithfulness,
and you will know Yahweh.” How many?
Angel of the Lord References Beautifully done. But Delivering a 1st Person Message
The Angel of the LORD (מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה Malakh YHWH "Messenger of Yahweh",[1] LXX ἄγγελος Κυρίου) is an entity appearing repeatedly in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) on behalf of God (Yahweh). The term malakh YHWH, in English translation usually accompanied with the definite article, King James Version "the angel of the LORD", occurs 65 times in the text of the Hebrew Bible. In some instances it is made clear that the reference is to a theophany, i.e. an appearance of YHWH himself rather than a separate entity acting on his behalf.
Ex: Genesis 16:7–14. The angel of the Lord appears to Hagar. The angel speaks as God in the first person, and in verse 13 Hagar identifies "the LORD that spake unto her" as "Thou God seest me". 1st PERSON
Numbers 22:22–38. The angel of the Lord meets the prophet Balaam on the road. In verse 38, Balaam identifies the angel who spoke to him as delivering the word of God (http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/52/52-3/JETS 52-3 499-518 Malone.pdf)(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_of_the_Lord)
An angel commands the
prophet to attribute a number of first-person comments to Yahweh Sabaoth,
culminating in 1:17 with “My cities will again overflow with goodness and
Yahweh will again comfort Zion
That is, Yahweh Sabaoth
announces that he himself, “the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to
his temple.” How many by narrative?
“the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight—
behold, he is coming.”
Scholars of all hues seem content to allow Yahweh
to speak of himself as Elohim in the third person, rather than trying to
identify Elohim as another God (even though some might attempt to do this
with other passages).
2 Cor 12:1–10), Paul clearly seeks to distance himself from the person narrated.
He is at pains not to claim the honor some would attribute to “such a man,”
and argues that his own apostleship is conversely attested by marks of weakness.
24 A similar phenomenon is found in Daniel 4, where it seems that
Nebuchadnezzar moves away from his first-person narrative in order to
assign his sinful self-magnification and its ensuing humiliation to some
past “other”
We find
Yahweh speaking of himself in the first person, yet also of someone (else?) in
the third person. The result is that we have Yahweh saying, “I overthrew
some of you, as when Elohim overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.”
:::that's why people talk of the name or 2 gods or a somewhat Trinitarian view.. But I don't really see two always in such for old T always mostly how it reads.
It is good to give thanks to Yahweh, and to sing praises to your
name, Elyon”),
EVEN though I don't talk this way ....
“you, Yahweh Sabaoth, God of Israel, have made a
revelation to your servant, saying, ‘I will build you a house’ ” (2 Sam 7:27).
“I, the Son of Man, am master even of the Sabbath” (Jesus)
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Psalms 92:1 (ESV Strong's) 1 It is good to give thanks to the Lord, to sing praises to your name, O Most High;
That verse isn't saying that, "O Most High" is God's name.
h5945. עֶלְיוֹן ‘elyôn; from 5927; an elevation, i.e. (adj.) lofty (compar.); as title, the Supreme: — (Most, on) high(-er, -est), upper(-most).
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
Fine by me,
But if your gonna make a case for 2 different Jesus es on wording.
You'll end up back here..
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness
elyôn; from 5927; an elevation
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
Then you'll Get one again
Son of Man
“I, the Son of Man, am master even of the Sabbath” (Jesus)
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Nope, I make no case for 2 Jesus', there is only one!
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
Well this is the thread I'm responding to not say that you do. Its just where we post or post questions. I'm not mad at anybody its just where we can ask. Oh yes and we can turn to the Lord.
Last edited:
ukok102nak
Active Member
~;> indeed
though we have different perception about this . ...
and this is one of many reason why
as it is written
:read: (FROM GODSWORD TO THE NATION VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE)
Isaiah 22:25
The LORD of Armies declares, "On that day the peg which I firmly fastened in place will be removed. It will be cut off and will fall, and everything hanging on it will be destroyed." The LORD has spoken.
as they say
luke is tellin somethin about the herod who was known at that time . . .
as it is written
:read:
Luke 1:5
When Herod was king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the division of priests named after Abijah. Zechariah's wife Elizabeth was a descendant of Aaron.
and matthew is sayin somethin on his writtings about this so called herod ...
so as it is written
:read:
Matthew 2:1
Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea when Herod was king. After Jesus' birth wise men from the east arrived in Jerusalem.
actually
After Jesus' birth wise men from the east arrived in Jerusalem.
and it was only that time
when the first herod king of judea
knew about this
also when
Joseph got up, took the child and his mother, and left for Egypt that night
the only begotten son of god in human form during that time
is already two year old as it properly pointing unto this written statement that
When Herod saw that the wise men had tricked him, he became furious. He sent soldiers to kill all the boys two years old and younger in or near Bethlehem. This matched the exact time he had learned from the wise men.
so the posibility of that event really happened especially the
Eight days after his birth, the child was circumcised and named Jesus. This was the name the angel had given him before his mother became pregnant.
not to mention that
there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the division of priests named after Abijah. Zechariah's wife Elizabeth was a descendant of Aaron
When Herod was king of Judea
meaning the writtings of
matthew and luke corroborates with each other
as is it written
:read:
Matthew 2:2
They asked, "Where is the one who was born to be the king of the Jews? We saw his star rising and have come to worship him."
3 When King Herod and all Jerusalem heard about this, they became disturbed.
4 He called together all the chief priests and scribes and tried to find out from them where the Messiah was supposed to be born.
5 They told him, "In Bethlehem in Judea. The prophet wrote about this:
6 Bethlehem in the land of Judah, you are by no means least among the leaders of Judah. A leader will come from you. He will shepherd my people Israel."
7 Then Herod secretly called the wise men and found out from them exactly when the star had appeared.
8 As he sent them to Bethlehem, he said, "Go and search carefully for the child. When you have found him, report to me so that I may go and worship him too."
9 After they had heard the king, they started out. The star they had seen rising led them until it stopped over the place where the child was.
10 They were overwhelmed with joy to see the star.
11 When they entered the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary. So they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasure chests and offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
12 God warned them in a dream not to go back to Herod. So they left for their country by another road.
13 After they had left, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. The angel said to him, "Get up, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, because Herod intends to search for the child and kill him."
14 Joseph got up, took the child and his mother, and left for Egypt that night.
15 He stayed there until Herod died. What the Lord had spoken through the prophet came true: "I have called my son out of Egypt."
16 When Herod saw that the wise men had tricked him, he became furious. He sent soldiers to kill all the boys two years old and younger in or near Bethlehem. This matched the exact time he had learned from the wise men.
17 Then the words spoken through the prophet Jeremiah came true:
18 "A sound was heard in Ramah, the sound of crying in bitter grief. Rachel was crying for her children. She refused to be comforted because they were dead."
in luke writtings
:read: (so as it is written)
Luke 2:20
As the shepherds returned to their flock, they glorified and praised God for everything they had seen and heard. Everything happened the way the angel had told them.
(IF ANYONE COULD NOTICE
THERES STILL NO SIGN OF THE WISEMEN IN THIS SITUATION)
SO LETS CONTINUE
:read: (again)
Luke 2:32
He is a light that will reveal salvation to the nations and bring glory to your people Israel."
33 Jesus' father and mother were amazed at what was said about him.
34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother, "This child is the reason that many people in Israel will be condemned and many others will be saved. He will be a sign that will expose
35 the thoughts of those who reject him. And a sword will pierce your heart."
36 Anna, a prophet, was also there. She was a descendant of Phanuel from the tribe of Asher. She was now very old. Her husband had died seven years after they were married,
37 and she had been a widow for 84 years. Anna never left the temple courtyard but worshiped day and night by fasting and praying.
38 At that moment she came up to Mary and Joseph and began to thank God. She spoke about Jesus to all who were waiting for Jerusalem to be set free.
39 After doing everything the Lord's Teachings required, Joseph and Mary returned to their hometown of Nazareth in Galilee.
40 The child grew and became strong. He was filled with wisdom, and God's favor was with him.
in matthew writtings
:read: (as it is written)
Matthew 2:15
He stayed there until Herod died. What the Lord had spoken through the prophet came true: "I have called my son out of Egypt."
.
.
.
19 After Herod was dead, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt.
20 The angel said to him, "Get up, take the child and his mother, and go to Israel. Those who tried to kill the child are dead."
21 Joseph got up, took the child and his mother, and went to Israel.
22 But when he heard that Archelaus had succeeded his father Herod as king of Judea, Joseph was afraid to go there. Warned in a dream, he left for Galilee
23 and made his home in a city called Nazareth. So what the prophets had said came true: "He will be called a Nazarene."
just compaired the writtings of
matthew and luke
in this verses to see if theres a missing link
then kindly show it to all
becaused we dont want to take all ... . . .
. ... christianity will always be there
whether you or they don't even remove that stone or
whatever they may call it
if we may say so ... .
:ty:
godbless
unto all always
Last edited:
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
But during the week before the passover festival TWO Jesus's caused trouble in Jerusalem and around the Temple, both were arrested, tried, convicted and condemned. This is what @Kelly of the Phoenix and I were making mention of earlier. It's all reported in the Bible, but later bibles had the name of the second Jesus removed, only giving his last name.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
It was written that all of this Nativity occured in King Herod the Great's lifetime, who died in 4BC.
But Quirinius' (Cyrenius's) Census was not ordered until 6AD.
Those two historical dates confound the whole story, before we go any further........
ukok102nak
Active Member
It was written that all of this Nativity occured in King Herod the Great's lifetime, who died in 4BC.
But Quirinius' (Cyrenius's) Census was not ordered until 6AD.
Those two historical dates confound the whole story, before we go any further........
~;> we've already knew that record is
wrong as the date of time were miscalculated
as those people before
(who choose the empire)
cannot distinguished the exact birth of christ in human form
thats why
they were the one who still in argue about that mystery until now
:ty:
godbless
unto all always
Last edited:
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
Thanks for answering every single one.
ukok102nak
Active Member
~;> as we've said before
this is one of many reason ... .
also read this part of the history of that
guy who was mentioned in
the gospel of luke
as it is written
:read:
In a sense, Publius Sulpicius Quirinius is among the most famous Romans. He is mentioned in the gospel of Luke:
In those days, Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. This census took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria.note
Because Jesus of Nazareth was born at the time of this census, this line from the Christmas story is well-known to many Christians.
But we know a lot more about Publius Sulpicius Quirinius. He was born in the neighborhood of Lanuvium, a Latin town near Rome; his family was rich but did not boast any senators or magistrates. Octavian's rise to power and his founding of the empire - he was from now on called Caesar Augustus - offered these people many opportunities for upward social mobility. Quirinius was one of them. In 15 BCE, Augustus appointed him as governor with the rank of proconsul of a province called Crete and Cyrenaica.
Roman careers always followed the same course (cursus honorum). One could not be a proconsul unless one had served as praetor; and this position was unattainable unless one had reached an age of about 30 years and occupied magistracies like the aedileship, the quaestorship and a military tribuneship. Although we know nothing about Quirinius' earlier career, we may assume that he had occupied these functions and knew much about the administration of the Roman empire.
In Cyrenaica, Quirinius successfully fought against the Garamantes, a tribe in the Sahara desert dwelling to the south of Cyrene. As a war hero he returned to Rome and was in 12 elected consul, still the most important office in the empire - after the emperor himself of course. Quirinius' colleague was a man named Gaius Valgius Rufus, otherwise known as a poet. After this success, Augustus appointed Quirinius as governor of Galatia and Paphlagonia (central Turkey). Between 5 and 3 he fought against a brigand tribe that was called Homonadensians.
Gaius Caesar
Perhaps, he was later appointed as governor of the very rich province of Asia, but this is not entirely certain. Anyhow, Quirinius had shown that his successes in the Sahara were not incidental. He was a capable commander and Augustus trusted him. In the first years of our era, Quirinius was ordered to be rector ("guide") of Gaius Caesar, the grandson of Augustus and his intended successor. The young man was to visit the eastern provinces and learn something about government. He left Rome on 29 January 1 BCE. (Among the officers that escorted the him were the historian Velleius Paterculus, Marcus Lollius, and Seianus, the future praetorian prefect.) Quirinius was probably present when Gaius met the new Parthian king Phraataces on an island in the Euphrates, and must have been one of Gaius' military advisers when he invaded Armenia. Unfortunately, the young man was wounded and died on his return to the west (3 CE). Augustus now selected his stepson Tiberius as successor.
Almost immediately, Quirinius was appointed as governor of Syria, one of the most important provinces of the empire, garrisoned with no less than four legions (III Gallica, VI Ferrata, X Fretensis, XII Fulminata). The area to the south, Judaea, was unquiet. Its leader, Herod Archelaus, had made big mess of his realm, and in 6, Augustus sent him into exile in Gaul.
Ostracon from Elephantine, recording a census
Judaea now became an autonomous part of the Roman province Syria, ruled by a prefect. Quirinius was ordered to organize the taxation of the new prefecture. Until then, taxes had been paid in kind. However, during the census which Quirinius organized, the inhabitants were required to declare their property in money. There are no indications that the Roman money taxes were higher than the taxes they replaced, but taxes in money were more onerous than taxes in kind, because a farmer had to borrow in case of a poor harvest. Besides, any Roman coin would bear an image of the goddess Roma or a legend saying that the man represented was the divine emperor: a violation of at least two of the ten commandments.
Not surprisingly, the Jewish peasants were unhappy. The high priest Joazar, however, was able to convince almost everyone to cooperate with the new authorities, since the alternative would be the return of the detested Herod Archelaus. But there remained some resistance.
Tombstone of Q. Aemilius Secundus, who conducted Quirinius' census in Apamea in Syria (CIL 3.6687)
It is unclear what happened next. There is no reference to a serious revolt in the catalog of armed interventions by Syrian governors of the Roman historian Tacitus;note it was not necessary to send the legions, which means that the rebellion cannot have been widespread.
However this may be, Quirinius' census and the riots that followed were remembered by the Jews. As we have already seen above, the evangelist Luke, writing two generations after the events, could assume that every reader knew Quirinius' governorship.
In 14, Augustus died and Tiberius succeeded him as emperor. Quirinius, now an old man, seems to have retained much influence.
Quirinius, now a very wealthy man, was married to Aemilia Lepida, a granddaughter of the triumvir Lepidus, who had been Rome's pontifex maximus. In 20, she was pregnant and claimed that Quirinius was the father. However, he denied that this was possible, divorced her, and accused her. She was convicted.
One year later, Quirinius died. He was accorded a public funeral. He had no children, neither with Aemilia Lepida, nor with his first wife, Appia Claudia.
. ... just for a thought
if we may say so ... .
:ty:
godbless
unto all always
this is one of many reason ... .
also read this part of the history of that
guy who was mentioned in
the gospel of luke
as it is written
:read:
In a sense, Publius Sulpicius Quirinius is among the most famous Romans. He is mentioned in the gospel of Luke:
In those days, Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. This census took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria.note
Because Jesus of Nazareth was born at the time of this census, this line from the Christmas story is well-known to many Christians.
But we know a lot more about Publius Sulpicius Quirinius. He was born in the neighborhood of Lanuvium, a Latin town near Rome; his family was rich but did not boast any senators or magistrates. Octavian's rise to power and his founding of the empire - he was from now on called Caesar Augustus - offered these people many opportunities for upward social mobility. Quirinius was one of them. In 15 BCE, Augustus appointed him as governor with the rank of proconsul of a province called Crete and Cyrenaica.
Roman careers always followed the same course (cursus honorum). One could not be a proconsul unless one had served as praetor; and this position was unattainable unless one had reached an age of about 30 years and occupied magistracies like the aedileship, the quaestorship and a military tribuneship. Although we know nothing about Quirinius' earlier career, we may assume that he had occupied these functions and knew much about the administration of the Roman empire.
In Cyrenaica, Quirinius successfully fought against the Garamantes, a tribe in the Sahara desert dwelling to the south of Cyrene. As a war hero he returned to Rome and was in 12 elected consul, still the most important office in the empire - after the emperor himself of course. Quirinius' colleague was a man named Gaius Valgius Rufus, otherwise known as a poet. After this success, Augustus appointed Quirinius as governor of Galatia and Paphlagonia (central Turkey). Between 5 and 3 he fought against a brigand tribe that was called Homonadensians.
Gaius Caesar
Perhaps, he was later appointed as governor of the very rich province of Asia, but this is not entirely certain. Anyhow, Quirinius had shown that his successes in the Sahara were not incidental. He was a capable commander and Augustus trusted him. In the first years of our era, Quirinius was ordered to be rector ("guide") of Gaius Caesar, the grandson of Augustus and his intended successor. The young man was to visit the eastern provinces and learn something about government. He left Rome on 29 January 1 BCE. (Among the officers that escorted the him were the historian Velleius Paterculus, Marcus Lollius, and Seianus, the future praetorian prefect.) Quirinius was probably present when Gaius met the new Parthian king Phraataces on an island in the Euphrates, and must have been one of Gaius' military advisers when he invaded Armenia. Unfortunately, the young man was wounded and died on his return to the west (3 CE). Augustus now selected his stepson Tiberius as successor.
Almost immediately, Quirinius was appointed as governor of Syria, one of the most important provinces of the empire, garrisoned with no less than four legions (III Gallica, VI Ferrata, X Fretensis, XII Fulminata). The area to the south, Judaea, was unquiet. Its leader, Herod Archelaus, had made big mess of his realm, and in 6, Augustus sent him into exile in Gaul.
Ostracon from Elephantine, recording a census
Judaea now became an autonomous part of the Roman province Syria, ruled by a prefect. Quirinius was ordered to organize the taxation of the new prefecture. Until then, taxes had been paid in kind. However, during the census which Quirinius organized, the inhabitants were required to declare their property in money. There are no indications that the Roman money taxes were higher than the taxes they replaced, but taxes in money were more onerous than taxes in kind, because a farmer had to borrow in case of a poor harvest. Besides, any Roman coin would bear an image of the goddess Roma or a legend saying that the man represented was the divine emperor: a violation of at least two of the ten commandments.
Not surprisingly, the Jewish peasants were unhappy. The high priest Joazar, however, was able to convince almost everyone to cooperate with the new authorities, since the alternative would be the return of the detested Herod Archelaus. But there remained some resistance.
Tombstone of Q. Aemilius Secundus, who conducted Quirinius' census in Apamea in Syria (CIL 3.6687)
It is unclear what happened next. There is no reference to a serious revolt in the catalog of armed interventions by Syrian governors of the Roman historian Tacitus;note it was not necessary to send the legions, which means that the rebellion cannot have been widespread.
However this may be, Quirinius' census and the riots that followed were remembered by the Jews. As we have already seen above, the evangelist Luke, writing two generations after the events, could assume that every reader knew Quirinius' governorship.
In 14, Augustus died and Tiberius succeeded him as emperor. Quirinius, now an old man, seems to have retained much influence.
Quirinius, now a very wealthy man, was married to Aemilia Lepida, a granddaughter of the triumvir Lepidus, who had been Rome's pontifex maximus. In 20, she was pregnant and claimed that Quirinius was the father. However, he denied that this was possible, divorced her, and accused her. She was convicted.
One year later, Quirinius died. He was accorded a public funeral. He had no children, neither with Aemilia Lepida, nor with his first wife, Appia Claudia.
. ... just for a thought
if we may say so ... .
:ty:
godbless
unto all always
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Jesus was a fairly common name....there were more than two, certainly. There are even more now in Spanish speaking cultures.....
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
And???
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
No......
When Quirinius was appointed as Legate of Syria in 6AD, and instructed to supervise a taxation census under the direction of the newly appointed Prefect, Coponius, Herod had been dead for 10 long years, and his son Auchelaus had attempted to govern Iudea (that was the name for Judea, Idumea and Samaria) but been so incompetent that Augustus had retired him to Rome on a pension!
Now, the dates are correct, but even if they were not correct, King Herod had been dead for ten long years before the Iudean census, and this census was ONLY carried out in Iudea! Quirinius may well have decided to carry out census in his own immediate territory at that or some other time.
Galilee, Perea and Northern Provinces were not included in this Census, and Joseph would not have had to travel anywhere. Luke fabricated the whole story in attempts to align Jesus's birth with prophesies.