Are the 10 Commandments as a whole valid today?

metis said:

First of all, see my post #217 as I took it a bit further from the one you quote above from me.

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Um. Okay....


Do you think they could benefit from practicing all the commandments regardless of how they are related to Jewish Laws and regardless of whether it applies to them or not?

If I were Christian, I would benefit from following all the commandments as best I can. I don't know about other Christians. Some don't feel they can. In my opinion they would, do you think so too?

I know some Christians who do not relate compassion and love with actual ritual practice/traditions outside of helping the sick and feeding the homeless. Things like lighting a candle, these particular Christians feel are the same and are OT teachings. That is how they feel. Just sharing my observations.

I personally don't know if it is lack of understanding of traditions are or rejection of it.

I notice Catholicism and other liturgical Churches do attempt (they don't follow all 613) commandments unlike protestant churches. (Blunt statement. Nothing behind it). It (this thought) could be mainstream Christianity, I don't know.

With that said.

In various books in the Tanakh, we were warned about performing sacrifices, for example, but just going through the motions. It's when we do the task but then forget or ignore what the task is for. In Matthew 25 with the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, this is essentially saying the same thing. The "goats" believe about Jesus, but not in him, and believing in him involves a commitment of compassion and justice for all.

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How does this relate to what I said, my assumptions, and curious questions I asked and thought you'd have an opinion on?

As with Jews and Christians, you will find some just going through the motions but not actually doing what Moses and Jesus taught about compassion and justice. As we've seen all too many times, many seem to think that going to synagogue or church is like going into a washing machine and coming out clean, instead of realizing that living out love and compassion for the entire week is essential. IOW, synagogue and church are meant to be a beginning to an end, not the end itself.

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Yes, some do. I practiced Christianity and I did not and was not in this category. So, that is generalizations.

It is also not related to my reply. If it is, how? Why the tone?

One of the priests at my wife's church often said this: "Joe thought he was going to heaven because of what he did on Sunday, but he went to hell for what he did on Monday". Or this one: "Joe missed going to heaven by 18 inches-- the distance from his head to his heart". Being nice to people whom one likes is easy, but being nice to even those who may hate and demean you is much more difficult, but that's what we're called to do.

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I don't understand how this relates to my questions. Above... do you think Christians can benefit from practicing the Law regardless if they do or do not and what they think about it? And all the other questions posed above.

If Christians feel more attached to God for keeping our Commandments, that's great, but I hope they also realize that what they should mostly concentrate on is having and acting on compassion and fairness to all,regardless as to how difficult that may be, And let me just finish by saying that I'm not always good at doing that.

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What about the Christians who do have and act on compassion and fairness for all regardless of how difficult it may be?

Why generalize Christians? That is pretty much an insult and something I got when I practice Catholicism. It was like protestants (and now Jews?) are thinking we (some of us) aren't real Christians because some of us do not practice what we are taught. I wasn't and still are not good at it; and, that doesn't mean I don't try.

I just wanted to know if Christians can benefit from practicing the Law?

Did I make a mistake in how I referenced what you said about Paul and the Law he negated?

Did you read my post with an presumption that I am arguing against you?

Where did you get that assumption from?

It feels like I stepped into the twilight zone. And yes, I read your full post. No assumptions.

Carlita said:

Um. Okay....

Do you think Christians can benefit from observing the Law even though Jesus summed it and the apostles negated some of the practices of the Law (if I'm reading you correctly)?
Did you say "the apostles (I think Paul?) negated some of the practices of the Law"? If not, just correct me or say you're right.​

Do you think they could benefit from practicing all the commandments regardless of how they are related to Jewish Laws and regardless of whether it applies to them or not?

If I were Christian, I would benefit from following all the commandments as best I can. I don't know about other Christians. Some don't feel they can. In my opinion they would, do you think so too?

I know some Christians who feel practice of whatever kind isn't the same as compassion and other emotions that have no physical attribute beyond helping the sick and holding one's head down in prayer. I don't know if it's lack of understanding of tradition intertwined with belief or rejection of it. I feel that is another reason why they say they are not obligated to keep the commandments. Catholicism and other liturgical Churches seem to attempt and/or follow the laws as best they can. It could be a protestant thing that became mainstream thought.
​

I know some Christians who do not relate compassion and love with actual ritual practice/traditions outside of helping the sick and feeding the homeless. Things like lighting a candle, these particular Christians feel are the same and are OT teachings. That is how they feel. Just sharing my observations.

I personally don't know if it is lack of understanding of traditions are or rejection of it.

I notice Catholicism and other liturgical Churches do attempt (they don't follow all 613) commandments unlike protestant churches. (Blunt statement. Nothing behind it). It (this thought) could be mainstream Christianity, I don't know.

With that said.



How does this relate to what I said, my assumptions, and curious questions I asked and thought you'd have an opinion on?



Yes, some do. I practiced Christianity and I did not and was not in this category. So, that is generalizations.

It is also not related to my reply. If it is, how? Why the tone?



I don't understand how this relates to my questions. Above... do you think Christians can benefit from practicing the Law regardless if they do or do not and what they think about it? And all the other questions posed above.



What about the Christians who do have and act on compassion and fairness for all regardless of how difficult it may be?

Why generalize Christians? That is pretty much an insult and something I got when I practice Catholicism. It was like protestants (and now Jews?) are thinking we (some of us) aren't real Christians because some of us do not practice what we are taught. I wasn't and still are not good at it; and, that doesn't mean I don't try.

I just wanted to know if Christians can benefit from practicing the Law?

Did I make a mistake in how I referenced what you said about Paul and the Law he negated?

Did you read my post with an presumption that I am arguing against you?

Where did you get that assumption from?

It feels like I stepped into the twilight zone. And yes, I read your full post. No assumptions.

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There seems to be a very serious disconnect in terms of what my motive supposedly was on my last post.

First of all, I was in no way arguing against anything you said. Secondly, I was in no way insulting or stereotyping Christians or you. Thirdly, if anything, I was showing how it can be viewed as logical that Jesus' message can be viewed as being compatible with the Law. Fourthly, I already said that some Christians may benefit from observing some parts of the Law they feel comfortable with but that it's certainly not mandatory from a Jewish perspective.

I read and reread what I had written in that last post, and I can't for the life of me figure out how you got it that I was being argumentative or insulting, especially after so many posts that you've seen my put up here at RF to help defend some against religious bigotry. Sorry if I offended you, but I don't honestly know what I did to give you that impression. I'm literally totally confused.

lostwanderingsoul said:

OK, I am honest enough to admit I was thinking of the wrong verse. Jesus said in Matthew 19:17 - 19 that if you would enter into life you should keep the commandments. Then He named several of them to show He was talking about the 10 commandments. These ten were written in stone by God's own hand. The 600 others were never written instone. So all those who find excuses not to follow the commandments must not expect to enter into life. That will make it a lot less crowded for those who are willing to obey. It also seems that if you love Jesus you would follow all His words and not just those you like.

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Well the Torah is important for a Christian no matter if you are keeping it or not, but in this passage you mention Jesus is speaking to Jews only. There are no gentiles allowed in Christianity until some time after Jesus dies. Up until then every one of his followers is a Jew (going by the book). Also the twelve apostles only preach to other Jews until an unexpected event mentioned in Acts when Peter is told to begin recognizing gentiles as converts. (the story of this is in Acts chapter 10 and 11) This all happens after Jesus death. Apparently nobody is expecting gentiles to be invited to the table. Gentiles are....gentiles, so how can they be fellowshipped? They debate about how gentiles can possibly be in fellowship, since gentiles don't keep the commandments. It is then and still is today a good question.

I was confused too. I thought to myself, why would he say some Christians (and Jews) go through the motions but not doing what Moses actually said... Some times saying "some" kind of puts a negative perspective that "yes, I know there are Christians who actually go through motions and do what Moses said, but these Christians and Jews do not.

It's just a negative view and I pick that up in RF and outside life a lot. I'm really trying to change the one-side look "some people do these things that aren't good" and try to change it more of, "I know there are some who do not good things, but X amount actually do what they are supposed to do."

When I practice this, I notice the negativity and it sticks out like a sour thumb even if unintentional.

metis said:

I read and reread what I had written in that last post, and I can't for the life of me figure out how you got it that I was being argumentative or insulting, especially after so many posts that you've seen my put up here at RF to help defend some against religious bigotry. Sorry if I offended you, but I don't honestly know what I did to give you that impression. I'm literally totally confused.

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It took me awhile to write the post and read yours many times trying to think of why would he use "first of all" and what I mention above when you showed a lot of respect for the Church. Those phrases when typed "sound different". But I don't know how "First of all" sounds positive, though.

Another spin on the "benefit" question based on how you posted. Do you think that from a Jewish (religious) perspective, Christians can benefit from following all commandments or even if they do benefit, it wouldn't be the same because those commandments were meant for Jews to follow?

Carlita said:

I was confused too. I thought to myself, why would he say some Christians (and Jews) go through the motions but not doing what Moses actually said... Some times saying "some" kind of puts a negative perspective that "yes, I know there are Christians who actually go through motions and do what Moses said, but these Christians and Jews do not.

It's just a negative view and I pick that up in RF and outside life a lot. I'm really trying to change the one-side look "some people do these things that aren't good" and try to change it more of, "I know there are some who do not good things, but X amount actually do what they are supposed to do."

When I practice this, I notice the negativity and it sticks out like a sour thumb even if unintentional.



It took me awhile to write the post and read yours many times trying to think of why would he use "first of all" and what I mention above when you showed a lot of respect for the Church. Those phrases when typed "sound different". But I don't know how "First of all" sounds positive, though.

Another spin on the "benefit" question based on how you posted. Do you think that from a Jewish (religious) perspective, Christians can benefit from following all commandments or even if they do benefit, it wouldn't be the same because those commandments were meant for Jews to follow?

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Let me try and answer the question you asked first. Yes, I do think there can be benefits for non-Jews in following at least parts of the Law, like honoring one's parents, observing a day of rest even if it's not Shabbat, etc. I think there's much wisdom found in the Law, and let me also add that I do believe that a prime purpose of the Law is to teach compassion and justice, which people of any faith or no religious faith can and should do, imo. This is the main point I was trying to get across.

I use the words "some" and "many" a lot because I don't believe in stereotyping people or groups. Also, "first of all" isn't meant to sound like disagreement, just that it says that I'm going to follow this up with other items. But I can see how you might have interpreted it in a negative way, so I'll try and correct that from now on.

Anyhow, I thank you for both pointing out where our disconnect was and why, plus I hope my answer to your question makes sense and helps to explain overall where I'm coming from.

Speaking of which, I'm gonna be out of circulation for a few days as my wife and I move from "the cabin", as our grandkids call it, near Lake Superior back to our place near Detroit. I will try and pick up the pieces then.

shalom

C-Faith said:

I do debate them - 9 of the 10 are still valid in the eyes of God.

The Sabbath day is not observed in Christianity (Colossians 2: 14-17).

I've provided scripture to prove my point. When will you?

(This is a "Religious" debate after all).

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Context is key. Do you realize, at the time Paul wrote the epistle, the Colossian congregation consisted of all uncircumcised gentiles (Colossians 2:13)? Would it make any sense for Paul to suggest to gentiles to cease observing the Sabbath and "Jewish" festivals--something they were never observing prior to their conversion in the first place?

lostwanderingsoul said:

Yes, I understand. This is the day God rested after six days creating the universe. God blessed this seventh day and commanded that people remember and honor it. Why then do so many people try to change it to the first day of the week? God did not rest first and then create the universe. But people refuse to accept this and continue to look for excuses why they do not have to.

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I think Jesus opposed this sort of legalism. That is why He could reduce all 613 commandments to two. More specifically, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The point is for everyone to devote a day to prayer and reflection, rest, and quiet domesticity. It's easier if everyone does it on the same day of the week, but which one is not important.
Especially after centuries of messing with the calendar Who knows which is the 7th day any more.
That sort of legalism eventually winds up with nonsense like arguing about whether flipping a light switch constitutes lighting a fire.
Jesus would not approve.

Tom

When I look at a calendar, I see Saturday as the seventh day. Most churches freely agree that Sunday is the first day of the week. They make excuses why they should observe the first day. Again, God did not rest on the first day.He said to remember the seventh day. Jesus would approve.

columbus said:

I think Jesus opposed this sort of legalism. That is why He could reduce all 613 commandments to two. More specifically, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

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1. In this context, the Sabbath was a specific day of the week--Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. Jesus also said He was Lord of it , meaning He, not the Pharisees, determines how, not if, it should be kept.

The point is for everyone to devote a day to prayer and reflection, rest, and quiet domesticity. It's easier if everyone does it on the same day of the week, but which one is not important.

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2. King Jeroboam had precisely the same mindset when he thought it would be easier to simply change an appointed day God had ordained to some other day (1 Kings 12:32-33) . He probably thought as you, " After all, we are still keeping "a" day, right? Today many Christians think similarly, "God wouldn't mind us changing the Sabbath to Sunday or any other day, right? Unfortunately, just like King Jeroboam was wrong in God's eyes for changing the day, so are all of God's people who do not keep it at the appointed time today (Matthew 24:20).

Especially after centuries of messing with the calendar Who knows which is the 7th day any more.

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3. The collective Scriptural, historical, and scientific evidence suggests the 7th day can only be Saturday or more precisely Friday sunset to Saturday sunset see evidence here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/what-is-the-true-7th-day-shabbat.181624/page-2#post-4514989

That sort of legalism eventually winds up with nonsense like arguing about whether flipping a light switch constitutes lighting a fire. Jesus would not approve.

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4. I do not consider keeping the specific day God ordained holy, by refraining from work and anything that diverts our attention from the Creator and His purpose, as legalism. God made that 24 hr period of time holy. We should never change what God makes holy. Those who did, paid a heavy price. Remember what happened to Nadab and Abihu when they thought God would not mind if they altered a process God made holy (Leviticus 10:1-2). Some commentators suggest they altered the time the fire was lit.

The Pharisees added burdensome rules to the Sabbath that Jesus indicated were never intended. But keeping the specific day God ordained as holy was and has never changed for God's people.

lostwanderingsoul said:

When I look at a calendar, I see Saturday as the seventh day. Most churches freely agree that Sunday is the first day of the week. They make excuses why they should observe the first day. Again, God did not rest on the first day.He said to remember the seventh day. Jesus would approve.

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I noticed in Germany the first day of the week on the calendar was Monday.

Milton Platt said:

You are assuming that your god exists..............

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one of our fellow atheist told us that the term
atheist wouldnt exist either without the term god/gods
if we may say so

by the way
the author of this thread is
probably pointing unto the spiritual sabbath that some people were unable to comprehend
if we may say so again

. ... just for a thought
just once in a day because if someone is thinking all of this everyday and everytime then that is somekind of a thing for that
someone to be a
Mega-Super-Ultra-robot and not a human


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

URAVIP2ME said:

Yes, Jesus' illustration about the neighborly good Samaritan shows helping even strangers in distress.
To widen out, or broaden out, in showing love even for those we do Not know.
Jesus was teaching we should help on a one-on-one basis.
Jesus never instructed the building of buildings or the making of ' rice' Christians.
So, besides helping one-on-one, we are to do the same spiritual work as Jesus did and instructed to do - Luke 4:43; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:18-20; Acts of the Apostles 1:8

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probably you can make a bread without the existence of rice
literally


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

CG Didymus said:

Let's talk about murder. God, "Don't murder" God, "Draw your sword and kill the Hebrew man next to you." God, "Abraham, go kill your son and burn him up." God, "go into the city and kill all the men, women and children. Oh, and there animals too." So how is this God different than any other tribal god that is telling his people to go kill his enemies? Problem is those gods aren't real. The people made up their own concepts of what they need their gods to be. What if the Hebrews did the same? Who made up the other major religions? Their God? Or, did they make up a God to fit their concept of reality? Concepts that fit their culture. You know, men are number one. Our people are the only good ones, everyone else is evil and must die. Concepts that helped ancient people survive and build a society. Some good stuff. Some good spiritual stuff. Some very outdated stupid stuff, including Christianity.

Oh, talking about stupid stuff let's talk about sex. "Don't commit adultery." God's solution? Stone them. But what about within marriage? Did God allow married couples to experiment? To do things and try things that made each other feel good? Hmmm? Lots of things feel good. Ooh, what about other couples joining in? Ooh, what about a couple of girls kind of doing things with each other? People, including Christians, break the rules. Society has had to stop being hypocritical. It's tough for born-again believers to stop. They have to act as if they follow the Bible rules, but many don't. And all of us know they don't follow the rules, including big time Christian leaders... sorry, but a real witness breaker. Don't teach it, don't preach it, if you can't yourself keep it. To the one non-married virgin Christian... Why? How do you do it? Or, don't do it? I lasted like 2 months as a Christian virgin and exploded. So I understand why even Christians have sex with friends, family, married people, themselves, the internet, or going old school and using magazines. But, most can't or won't admit it. So, they are hypocrites. And, we all know they are. Yet, we are expected to respect the things they say about God and Jesus? No, if you can't live it, don't push on me. And, you know that other Christian religion, the one that had men live with men and women with women... yeah, how did that work?

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~;> your just confused
coz you thought it did not exist coz you did not experienced it


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

columbus said:

I think Jesus opposed this sort of legalism. That is why He could reduce all 613 commandments to two.

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I cant imagine standing before Christ and saying save me Lord, im an illegallist, i did nothing you command me to do.

columbus said:

I think Jesus opposed this sort of legalism. That is why He could reduce all 613 commandments to two.

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MATT.22 [35] Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?[37] Jesus said unto him, THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THY HEART, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.[38] This is the first and great commandment.[39] And the second is like unto it, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF.[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Why do you believe that we no longer need keep Gods 10 commandments because of what Jesus said in Matthew?

DEUT.6 [5] And THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THINE HEART, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.[6] And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart [17] Ye shall diligently KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

Jesus was only quoting scriptures from the old testament. And as you can see in above scripture the way to love GOD is to keep diligently the commandments.

1JOHN 5 [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

And the new testament verifies the old testament as to how we are to show our love for God? In the new testament book of John. When we love God, we keep His commandments.

LEV.19 [17] Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.[18] Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF: I am the LORD.

Again (thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself) Jesus is quoting scripture from the old testament. Do you agree that the people who lived in old testament times were under the 10 commandments. Of course they were. So why when Jesus quotes old testament scripture do you think the 10 commandments are now done away with?

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] AND THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

In John, you can read how we are to love our neighbour according to the NEW TESTAMENT. It’s the same way that it says in the old testament. KEEP GODS 10 COMMANDMENTS. Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever.

columbus said:

More specifically, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

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Well if Jesus made the sabbath for man, why in the world would man deny Christ and not keep the sabbath day rest He created for man. YIKES!

columbus said:

Who knows which is the 7th day any more.

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Jesus did and does. After all He made the sabbath. He kept the sabbath and the Jews have kept that SAME day since.

Brickjectivity said:

Well the Torah is important for a Christian no matter if you are keeping it or not, but in this passage you mention Jesus is speaking to Jews only. There are no gentiles allowed in Christianity until some time after Jesus dies. Up until then every one of his followers is a Jew (going by the book). Also the twelve apostles only preach to other Jews until an unexpected event mentioned in Acts when Peter is told to begin recognizing gentiles as converts. (the story of this is in Acts chapter 10 and 11) This all happens after Jesus death. Apparently nobody is expecting gentiles to be invited to the table. Gentiles are....gentiles, so how can they be fellowshipped? They debate about how gentiles can possibly be in fellowship, since gentiles don't keep the commandments. It is then and still is today a good question.

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~;> somehow this post of yours is more truly fascinated us
how did you know this things when most people were unable to search this kind of understanding

. ... just askin
if we may say so ... .

also
for some gentiles today were still in the grasp on not knowing about the bible
just like in the past
but never did anything that is forbidden
like this one
as it is written
:read:
1 Corinthians 5:1
It is commonly reported that there is whoring among you, and such whoring as is not even named among the gentiles, so as one to have his father’s wife!

lucky for those gentiles
if we may say so


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

metis said:

Because the Mosaiic Law only applies to Jews, as found in Torah.

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Not so Sir Metis, a: It was not only the tribe of Judah ... collectively we are Hebrews that accompanied
Moshe ....

Tarheeler said:

Actually, they're leaving out 604 if you want to be specific.

If Jesus said to keep the commandments, then why only worry about 10 (or 9) of them?

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Because...

EXOD.34
[28] And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables THE WORDS OF THE COVENANT, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.

DEUT.4
[13] And he declared unto you HIS COVENANT, which he commanded you to perform, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

The 10 are a whole sepoarate covenant