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The whys of Hell and Jesus.

A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
miahmoseselias said:
Great songs are they all sung by Johnny Cash? First time I've heard them.
Click to expand...

Yeah - later in life he got into a lot of genres of music, partnering with a lot of artists and singing a lot of great stuff. He's a lot like our friend Willie Nelson in that respect.

This puts the bad in ****** -

When we're talking about heaven and hell, need to meditate on Mr. Cash.
 
T

thau

Well-Known Member
jojom said:
If any of the questions here have reasonable answers, please share.

Q.1 Why did the god of Abraham create hell, or at least lets it exist?

Q.2 Does eternal punishment truly fit the crime of comparatively brief temporal sin?

Q.3 Why create such a narrow and conditional means of avoiding hell---believe in Jesus as one's savior? (Most of civilization never heard of it, or have been convinced of its necessity.)

Q. 4 What do you think god achieves by, or derives from, setting up this particular escape rout: believing in Jesus as one's savior?
​

And please, no "God works in mysterious ways" or similar explanations.


.
Click to expand...

Q.3 Why create such a narrow and conditional means of avoiding hell---believe in Jesus as one's savior? (Most of civilization never heard of it, or have been convinced of its necessity.)

You must be committing some particular Christian sect's interpretation as to represent some universal “either or” teaching which is simply not the case. Errors in theology limit God, I would not call it hubris, just overconfidence in their particular interpretation and somewhat detrimental. Many passages in Scripture say something far different about salvation. Start with the Beatitudes --- Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God, Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy, Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. And so on. Faith is not shown as the prerequisite. In Jeremiah 17:9-10 God says ---- “More tortuous than all else is the human heart, beyond remedy; who can understand it? I, the Lord, alone probe the mind and search the heart, to reward everyone according to his ways, according to the merit of his deeds.” God judges every soul in its unique state with many factors altering its culpability and/or opportunity. --- Acts 10:34-35 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. No need to expound further except to say that all of this all the more allows for a purifications state after death known as purgatory.

As to your first two questions, they are unanswerable. This is where we are asked to be humble and faithful and not let that which we cannot understand cause so much consternation. Be grateful for all that has been revealed and promised. I posted this before but it is a commentary on those who cannot accept a God who speaks of a hell as well.

  • - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - - - - - -- - - - - - - - --
Perhaps no one can say why there has to be an eternal hell for some souls, but I do have a question for those who may reject God for that reason. I am wondering now. But I believe God loves you enough where perhaps if you are not happy with the idea of being given the gift of eternal life because the possibility of hell also exists, then maybe you can appeal in a prayer? Ask God if at the moment you pass from this world, might he just turn you into a rock instead? Pure oblivion, no pain, no consciousness, no nothing. In that way you will not risk any suffering in hell -- which you never asked for, by the way, when He created you. Ok, that’s true. However, in so doing, neither will you ever be given the opportunity to know heaven or see your loved ones again or have any consciousness. That would have to be the bargain.

I am curious to know if this disturbance to the idea of hell is a primary reason many choose to not to think about God very much or do much about it? Perhaps understandable to a degree, but why would anyone still not be fascinated, if not obsessed, with what life and death is all about and what may lie ahead? The evidence can be found in so many places, in so many ways about this God which so many want to believe in yet keep at a safe distance just the same. The evidence for Jesus, Mary, the saints, the miracles, heaven, hell, purgatory, and redemption all can be known. I submit Christianity has given far more to this world than all of its failures combined. God can only work with sinners so is it fair to point only to the failures of this faith and ignore its virtues when judging the message and works?

God’s promise to the world is that heaven awaits those who seek Him, yet if you choose to be filled with pride and live this life only for yourself, its pleasures and its comforts --- and in so doing ignore His calling, even His existence, then perhaps an awful fate is possible? It is a risk, granted, but is it unfair? Would one prefer to be turned into a rock instead? Maybe God will honor your free will and grant such a way out? But who would choose anything so dour and final as that when there is so much to hope for and be grateful for? Nothing unfair or unloving about it in the least.

“God reveals His covenant to those who fear Him.”
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I cannot present a coherent thought so there must be something wrong with you.

Thanks and eat your fish.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
thau said:
Q.3 Why create such a narrow and conditional means of avoiding hell---believe in Jesus as one's savior? (Most of civilization never heard of it, or have been convinced of its necessity.)

You must be committing some particular Christian sect's interpretation as to represent some universal “either or” teaching which is simply not the case. Errors in theology limit God, I would not call it hubris, just overconfidence in their particular interpretation and somewhat detrimental. Many passages in Scripture say something far different about salvation. Start with the Beatitudes --- Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God, Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy, Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. And so on. Faith is not shown as the prerequisite. In Jeremiah 17:9-10 God says ---- “More tortuous than all else is the human heart, beyond remedy; who can understand it? I, the Lord, alone probe the mind and search the heart, to reward everyone according to his ways, according to the merit of his deeds.” God judges every soul in its unique state with many factors altering its culpability and/or opportunity. --- Acts 10:34-35 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. No need to expound further except to say that all of this all the more allows for a purifications state after death known as purgatory.

As to your first two questions, they are unanswerable. This is where we are asked to be humble and faithful and not let that which we cannot understand cause so much consternation. Be grateful for all that has been revealed and promised. I posted this before but it is a commentary on those who cannot accept a God who speaks of a hell as well.

  • - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - - - - - -- - - - - - - - --
Perhaps no one can say why there has to be an eternal hell for some souls, but I do have a question for those who may reject God for that reason. I am wondering now. But I believe God loves you enough where perhaps if you are not happy with the idea of being given the gift of eternal life because the possibility of hell also exists, then maybe you can appeal in a prayer? Ask God if at the moment you pass from this world, might he just turn you into a rock instead? Pure oblivion, no pain, no consciousness, no nothing. In that way you will not risk any suffering in hell -- which you never asked for, by the way, when He created you. Ok, that’s true. However, in so doing, neither will you ever be given the opportunity to know heaven or see your loved ones again or have any consciousness. That would have to be the bargain.

I am curious to know if this disturbance to the idea of hell is a primary reason many choose to not to think about God very much or do much about it? Perhaps understandable to a degree, but why would anyone still not be fascinated, if not obsessed, with what life and death is all about and what may lie ahead? The evidence can be found in so many places, in so many ways about this God which so many want to believe in yet keep at a safe distance just the same. The evidence for Jesus, Mary, the saints, the miracles, heaven, hell, purgatory, and redemption all can be known. I submit Christianity has given far more to this world than all of its failures combined. God can only work with sinners so is it fair to point only to the failures of this faith and ignore its virtues when judging the message and works?

God’s promise to the world is that heaven awaits those who seek Him, yet if you choose to be filled with pride and live this life only for yourself, its pleasures and its comforts --- and in so doing ignore His calling, even His existence, then perhaps an awful fate is possible? It is a risk, granted, but is it unfair? Would one prefer to be turned into a rock instead? Maybe God will honor your free will and grant such a way out? But who would choose anything so dour and final as that when there is so much to hope for and be grateful for? Nothing unfair or unloving about it in the least.

“God reveals His covenant to those who fear Him.”
Click to expand...
Anyone who rejects Christianity because of this ^^^^

... should be praised.


Intellectual dishonesty vulgarizes faith and renders it utterly profane.
 
jojom

jojom

Active Member
thau said:
Q.3 Why create such a narrow and conditional means of avoiding hell---believe in Jesus as one's savior? (Most of civilization never heard of it, or have been convinced of its necessity.)

You must be committing some particular Christian sect's interpretation as to represent some universal “either or” teaching which is simply not the case. Errors in theology limit God, I would not call it hubris, just overconfidence in their particular interpretation and somewhat detrimental. Many passages in Scripture say something far different about salvation. Start with the Beatitudes --- Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God, Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy, Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. And so on. Faith is not shown as the prerequisite. In Jeremiah 17:9-10 God says ---- “More tortuous than all else is the human heart, beyond remedy; who can understand it? I, the Lord, alone probe the mind and search the heart, to reward everyone according to his ways, according to the merit of his deeds.” God judges every soul in its unique state with many factors altering its culpability and/or opportunity. --- Acts 10:34-35 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. No need to expound further except to say that all of this all the more allows for a purifications state after death known as purgatory.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that it's not necessary to take Jesus as one's savior to get into heaven? One can safely ignore him altogether? Interesting, but I don't think the majority of Christians would agree.

As to your first two questions, they are unanswerable.
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Just seeking an opinion on the second.
 
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T

thau

Well-Known Member
jojom said:
So you're saying that it's not necessary to take Jesus as one's savior to get into heaven? One can safely ignore him altogether? Interesting, but I don't think the majority of Christians would agree. Just seeking an opinion on the second.
Click to expand...

So. you're saying that it's not necessary to take Jesus as one's savior to get into heaven?

I wouldn’t know what other Christian creeds preach, the Catholic teaching allows for it. Does it appear in any way that God would send the unaware or the innocent ones to the nether world? Vatican II says this Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. From the Bible Acts 10:34-35Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. Many other teachings and passages indicate great mercy in many ways.


One can safely ignore him altogether?

No, I would not attest to that. Many words have been spoken about that, but one passage “To whom more has been given, more will be required” covers a lot of ground. I would think one who once knew the gospel and accepted Christ (which could be evident in different ways) and then chose to turn his back on his God --- that person I would think would be taking great risks. Clearly I can be no authority, just conjecture.
 
jojom

jojom

Active Member
thau said:
So. you're saying that it's not necessary to take Jesus as one's savior to get into heaven?

I wouldn’t know what other Christian creeds preach, the Catholic teaching allows for it.
Click to expand...
But are you saying that it's not necessary to take Jesus as one's savior to get into heaven?

Does it appear in any way that God would send the unaware or the innocent ones to the nether world?
Click to expand...
If taking Jesus as one's savior is the only way to get into heaven wouldn't that be the reasonable conclusion? So, yes, it certainly appears that way.

Vatican II says this Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Click to expand...
But this still requires seeking God with a sincere heart, and being moved by grace. A LOT of people in the world don't even know of god so as to seek him out. Or remain unconvinced of its necessity. As far as being moved by grace, I'm not sure what this refers to. Where does this grace come from to move people, and what does one have to do to have it bestowed on oneself?

One can safely ignore him altogether? No I would not attest to that
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 Good, then I assume you agree that having to accept Jesus as one's savior is a narrow and conditional means of avoiding hell. A condition most of civilization never heard of it, or has been convinced of its necessity.


.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
thau said:
I agree.

That’s why a discerning heart is a gift. It can be attained, but humility would surely be a requisite.
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I've never seen the meek defecate logical fallacies on the faith.

Anyway, if you do agree, there are many statements in your posts that need revision.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
jojom said:
If any of the questions here have reasonable answers, please share.
Q.1 Why did the god of Abraham create hell, or at least lets it exist?

Q.2 Does eternal punishment truly fit the crime of comparatively brief temporal sin?

Q.3 Why create such a narrow and conditional means of avoiding hell---believe in Jesus as one's savior? (Most of civilization never heard of it, or have been convinced of its necessity.)

Q. 4 What do you think god achieves by, or derives from, setting up this particular escape rout: believing in Jesus as one's savior?​
And please, no "God works in mysterious ways" or similar explanations.
.
Click to expand...

First of all, there is the Bible's temporary hell, and also the teaching of a non-biblical permanent hell just taught as being Scripture.
The Bible's hell is the temporary grave or sleeping place for the dead - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; John 11:11-14
If biblical hell was permanent then Jesus would still be in hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27

A.1 Biblical hell exists because the price sin pays is: death - Romans 6:23; Romans 6:7
All dead righteous and unrighteous persons are considered as being in biblical hell until resurrected out of biblical hell.
Righteous dead Jesus was resurrected by God out of hell. - Acts of the Apostles 3:15; Psalms 16:10

A.2 The Bible's hell is temporary (No eternal hell ) Please notice at Revelation 20:13-14 that everyone in the Bible's hell is ' delivered up ' or resurrected out of biblical hell, then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.

A.3 Since the majority of mankind lived and died before ever hearing of Jesus as Messiah so there is No narrow means of avoidance.

A.4 The escape rout is: Resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15. Since we can Not resurrect oneself or another then we need someone who can do that for us. Faithful Jesus has the keys to unlock biblical hell - Revelation 1:18 - and Jesus uses those keys to resurrect the dead out of hell during his coming 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth - Revelation 20:6

Unless a person has committed the unforgivable sin - Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6 - then Romans 6:7 applies.
The one who has died is freed or acquitted from sin. Not meaning now innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges do Not stick, Jesus as a just Judge can pardon a person so the sin charges No longer stick.
Some resurrected to heaven and resurrected in a spirit body, but the majority of mankind to be resurrected or restored back to healthy physical life on earth during Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over earth. Acts of the Apostles 2:34

P. S. I would like to add that before Jesus starts his millennial rule over earth there is a coming ' time of separation ' on earth - Matthew 25:31-32 - when humble people alive on earth can be counted as righteous and remain alive on earth being ' saved ' (delivered / rescued ) through the coming great tribulation - Revelation 7:14 - and keep on living on earth right into the start of Jesus' 1,000 year kingdom rule over earth.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
jojom said:
2. So if A&E never brought sin into the world, and no one ever died, what do you think the population of the world would be right now? The Population Reference Bureau puts it at 107,602,707,791. That's 15 times our current population.
3. Ransom? Why not simply absolve everyone with a snap of his fingers? Why make everyone go through hoops?
4. "Satisfying his own standard of perfect justice and righteousness." So, it all comes down to satisfying god's needs: "I have such a need that people accept Jesus that if they don't I'll consign them to hell." Think such an attitude on the human level, "If you kids don't make me feel happy you're going to get the strap!" would be acceptable?
.
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Please keep in mind Genesis 1:28 because Adam and Eve (including their descendants - us ) were to fill the earth, Not overpopulate earth. Mankind was to reproduce only until earth was full or populated. As to God's purpose as to what would be after earth would be populated the Bible is silent, but according to Scripture during Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rule over earth new books or new scrolls will be opened for mankind's knowledge. We don't know God's purpose for the universe(s).

Adam sold us in to the Pawn Shop of Death. We can't pay our way out of the grave or death. We need someone from the outside who can pay over the price for our release from enemy death. Jesus' faithful death or ransom price is like ready cash to pay off our sin debt. If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Because we can't stop sinning we die and need a Resurrector - Matthew 20:28

ALL who sin are consigned to the Bible's temporary hell or grave for the dead - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4
God's Law in Eden was: you eat, you die. God can not lie, and God does Not go back on His word.
Like with Adam there is NO postmortem penalty associated with death - Genesis 3:19 - just sleep - John 11:11-14; Daniel 12:2
Adam wrongly ate and lost his healthy human perfection of sound heart, mind and body, so our father Adam could No longer pass down to us his healthy human perfection but only his acquired human imperfection. The passing of time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us. Otherwise we simply would Not be here. Adam proved faithless under least, both Job and Jesus proved faithful under much thus proving Adam would have been faithful if he wanted to and we can too.
 
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