Speaking for God

Unveiled Artist · Jul 15, 2015

Can a person speak for God?

I notice Muslims and I dont think Jews do this. When they quote their scripture, they are not speaking for God but from followers of God. To me, that is the same as Muhammad speaking as God moved Him too just as Jesus.

Something happened in time to where christians dont have God speaking through them (so that "their own words" are expressions of God's) but now they depend on the words of others to speak God's words to others.

They are speaking for God using other peoples experiences and not their own.

Can a christian do that? Is that ethical to speak as if one is Abraham or Moses rather than speaking their own words inspired by God Himself?

Doesnt that kind of defeats the purpose of evangalization when a christian has no words of his own that comes from God?

Moses did not need to double check to see if his words came from God.

James did not nor did Jesus.

They knew. They did not need to refer to anything but what Gold Himself told them.

Christians should be the same as Muhammadx Jesus, Abraham, and Bahallauh who have received word directly from the creatorm

Religious differences aside, when did christians loose the ability to speak as God tells them? Are they really hearing God?

Quintessence · Jul 15, 2015

I'm going to presume you intend to limit this discussion to the one-god of the Abrahamic religions?

This is likely something that those who identify as members of Abrahamic religions are going to disagree about. Although mainline denominations doubtlessly are going to dispute this, there are movements within these religions that believe they never lost the ability to hear and speak on the behalf of their one-god. I have observed this a lot in the New Age movement in particular, which tends to have strongly Christian overtones. People will claim to be channeling all sorts of divine entities, including but not limited to the one-god or Jesus. In some cases, these channellings have been written down, published, and spawn new religious movements (Mormonism, anyone?) or subcultures. The long and short of it is that there are still prophets passing down the word of the one-god today. The question is whether or not the more traditional (or less progressive) elements of the religion accept those as valid or not. I'll leave them to discuss that. It's not my religion, and I have no business passing judgement on it one way or another.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 15, 2015

Quintessence said:
I'll leave them to discuss that. It's not my religion, and I have no business passing judgement on it one way or another.

True. Its good to kinda think about it without insulting their faiths. I always wondered how any abrahamic can speak for God in defense of their beliefs. I find that an insult. Its not my place to say that to their face; and, I find it healthy if said right to voice opinions...well, if its productive.

Forever_Catholic · Jul 15, 2015

Carlita said:
Religious differences aside, when did christians loose the ability to speak as God tells them? Are they really hearing God?

God has given me answers in response to my prayers, various promptings, and deeper understanding of theological truth. That's how he speaks to the ordinary faithful. Divine revelations such as he gave to Moses and the prophets of the Old Covenant are only for specially chosen ones. The revelations were received and recorded by the specific people God gave them to, so how else could we convey them to others except to repeat the same words? There's no way to do that, but we can most fully understand them and help others understand, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In that regard, biblical commentary can be directed by God.

When Jesus spoke, it was God the Son speaking. There's no way to improve on what he said or what the apostles said, because Jesus gave them profound knowledge along with his authority to teach. As with Old Testament Bible commentary, our own words can only be used in the hope of helping others understand what Jesus and the apostles said.

But to really address your questions, Christian prophets have existed throughout the Christian age, and have spoken for God with inspired words. We call them the mystics of the Church. They are mostly among the saints and blesseds; particularly pious and humble souls who were (and are) entirely united with Jesus and his will. And he was (and is) united with them in return, closely interacting with them and giving them things to share with us. This is called "private revelation," to distinguish it from public revelation, which is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Private revelations that are investigated by the Church are meticulously scrutinized before being either approved of disapproved. Church approval of a private revelation means that it is worthy of belief.

Nothing we have received from the mystic saints is contrary to scripture or the Christian Faith, but it greatly expands on what Jesus wants us to know. For example, Jesus clearly and beautifully explained the Eucharist, from his point of view, to Saint Faustina. Some private revelation also explains more of what we might be interested to know. Jesus told Saint Teresa of Avila that he arose from the dead very early in the morning, awhile before anyone came to the tomb. As soon as he did, he went see his mother, who was grieving. So Saint Mary Magdalene was the first person to see the risen Jesus outside the tomb, but it was the one person closest of all to Jesus who saw him first of all, just as it should have been.

Some other mystic saints that come immediately to mind are:
Saint Bridget of Sweden
Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque
Saint Catherine of Genoa
Saint Catherine of Siena
Saint Padre Pio
And there are many more.

Saint Faustina (canonized in 2000) is worth mentioning again because she is a saint for our times. Christ asked her to participate with him in preparing the world for his final coming. It is through her that we received the Divine Mercy Devotion and though her that Divine Mercy Sunday came into the liturgical calendar.

Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska | The Divine Mercy Message from the Marians of the Immaculate Conception

Here is a fascinating web site (in my opinion) with articles on a lot of mostly lesser known mystics of the Church:

Mystics of the Church

These are all Christians who spoke from their own experiences and from what God gave them to know.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 15, 2015

What about your being a s-aint, and every other believer inspired by the Word. Why dont you have the same importance behind your words as the various saints you mentioned and Jesus Himself?

Forever_Catholic said:
God has given me answers in response to my prayers, various promptings, and deeper understanding of theological truth. That's how he speaks to the ordinary faithful. Divine revelations such as he gave to Moses and the prophets of the Old Covenant are only for specially chosen ones. The revelations were received and recorded by the specific people God gave them to, so how else could we convey them to others except to repeat the same words? There's no way to do that, but we can most fully understand them and help others understand, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In that regard, biblical commentary can be directed by God.

When Jesus spoke, it was God the Son speaking. There's no way to improve on what he said or what the apostles said, because Jesus gave them profound knowledge along with his authority to teach. As with Old Testament Bible commentary, our own words can only be used in the hope of helping others understand what Jesus and the apostles said.

But to really address your questions, Christian prophets have existed throughout the Christian age, and have spoken for God with inspired words. We call them the mystics of the Church. They are mostly among the saints and blesseds; particularly pious and humble souls who were (and are) entirely united with Jesus and his will. And he was (and is) united with them in return, closely interacting with them and giving them things to share with us. This is called "private revelation," to distinguish it from public revelation, which is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Private revelations that are investigated by the Church are meticulously scrutinized before being either approved of disapproved. Church approval of a private revelation means that it is worthy of belief.

Nothing we have received from the mystic saints is contrary to scripture or the Christian Faith, but it greatly expands on what Jesus wants us to know. For example, Jesus clearly and beautifully explained the Eucharist, from his point of view, to Saint Faustina. Some private revelation also explains more of what we might be interested to know. Jesus told Saint Teresa of Avila that he arose from the dead very early in the morning, awhile before anyone came to the tomb. As soon as he did, he went see his mother, who was grieving. So Saint Mary Magdalene was the first person to see the risen Jesus outside the tomb, but it was the one person closest of all to Jesus who saw him first of all, just as it should have been.

Some other mystic saints that come immediately to mind are:
Saint Bridget of Sweden
Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque
Saint Catherine of Genoa
Saint Catherine of Siena
Saint Padre Pio
And there are many more.

Saint Faustina (canonized in 2000) is worth mentioning again because she is a saint for our times. Christ asked her to participate with him in preparing the world for his final coming. It is through her that we received the Divine Mercy Devotion and though her that Divine Mercy Sunday came into the liturgical calendar.

Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska | The Divine Mercy Message from the Marians of the Immaculate Conception

Here is a fascinating web site (in my opinion) with articles on a lot of mostly lesser known mystics of the Church:

Mystics of the Church

These are all Christians who spoke from their own experiences and from what God gave them to know.

Forever_Catholic · Jul 16, 2015

Carlita said:
What about your being a s-aint, and every other believer inspired by the Word. Why dont you have the same importance behind your words as the various saints you mentioned and Jesus Himself?

Well, first you must consider that Jesus is not a prophet. He is God. No creature’s words can possibly have the importance of his. These saints had some great things to say on their own, but the greatest things they had to say did not originate in their own minds. That was all given to them by God. One reason God has such close and interactive associations with people like them is not just the strength of their faith, but because they have so much pure love in their hearts compared to most people, especially for God. Another thing quite common among the mystic saints was their willingness to accept suffering in reparation for the sins of others. The less we are like them in what they gave to God, the less we can be like them in the fulfillment they received in return.

Faustina is a great example of a saint. She became a consecrated religious, a sister, because Jesus asked her to, and she wanted to commit herself and her life entirely to him. She loved him obsessively, with every breath she took -- so much that she wanted to unite with him even in his suffering for our sins. And she did suffer through most of her short life on earth, always offering it to Jesus for the benefit of human souls. But she also had great joy in her heart to be united with him in this way, and he reciprocated to her in ways that he does not reciprocate to most people. That would be expected because the more a person loves Jesus, the more of himself he gives them, and what he has to give is infinite. Jesus not only spoke to her on a regular basis, but he appeared to her, often in solid form. He was very sweet to Sister Faustina on earth, and has rightfully elevated her to an especially high place in heaven.

If you ever decide to read her diary, titled Divine Mercy in My Soul, you will get a very good picture of the differences between faithful Christians and saints, and how we fall short by comparison. It’s a life-changing book by the way, that records the very words Christ spoke to her. It also provides a lot of incidental information on heaven, hell, purgatory, angels, Satan, the Eucharist, and other things, along with the main topic, which is Divine Mercy. (I didn't mention anything much about her role in that because I wanted to focus more on her nature.)

psychoslice · Jul 16, 2015

For me all there is, is God, and I do speak to all there is, and all there is speaks back to me in many ways.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 16, 2015

Forever_Catholic said:
Well, first you must consider that Jesus is not a prophet. He is God. No creature’s words can possibly have the importance of his. These saints had some great things to say on their own, but the greatest things they had to say did not originate in their own minds. That was all given to them by God. One reason God has such close and interactive associations with people like them is not just the strength of their faith, but because they have so much pure love in their hearts compared to most people, especially for God. Another thing quite common among the mystic saints was their willingness to accept suffering in reparation for the sins of others. The less we are like them in what they gave to God, the less we can be like them in the fulfillment they received in return.

Faustina is a great example of a saint. She became a consecrated religious, a sister, because Jesus asked her to, and she wanted to commit herself and her life entirely to him. She loved him obsessively, with every breath she took -- so much that she wanted to unite with him even in his suffering for our sins. And she did suffer through most of her short life on earth, always offering it to Jesus for the benefit of human souls.

But she also had great joy in her heart to be united with him in this way, and he reciprocated to her in ways that he does not reciprocate to most people. That would be expected because the more a person loves Jesus, the more of himself he gives them, and what he has to give is infinite. Jesus not only spoke to her on a regular basis, but he appeared to her, often in solid form. He was very sweet to Sister Faustina on earth, and has rightfully elevated her to an especially high place in heaven.

If you ever decide to read her diary, titled Divine Mercy in My Soul, you will get a very good picture of the differences between faithful Christians and saints, and how we fall short by comparison. It’s a life-changing book by the way, that records the very words Christ spoke to her. It also provides a lot of incidental information on heaven, hell, purgatory, angels, Satan, the Eucharist, and other things, along with the main topic, which is Divine Mercy. (I didn't mention anything much about her role in that because I wanted to focus more on her nature.)

Thats beautiful what you said. I have much admiration for the saints. I also feel if one is like Christ as a Christian God speaks through them as He does any other Saint. As saints are human. They were not formal saints until cananonized.

Yet, they still heared God's voice beforehand. I feel an christian doesnt need to display a number of miracles and good deeds to be a saint in God's eyes. I understand why some christians put Jnesus on a peddlestool since some believe Him to be God. However, with the saints we should not be any different. If I believed in God and you experienced God's calling and I see God in you Id admire you just as any other saint that calls to me. Although odd for some, many have live role models. One doesnt need to be deceased to be one.

The making of a saint is an interesting teaching (lack of words) of the Church. Nothing wrong with it. I am more inclined that all christians are saints. Any person has various degrees of how close they are to God.

Nakosis · Jul 16, 2015

Carlita said:
Can a person speak for God?

Assuming it is all part of God's plan, then everyone is playing a part according to that plan. So whatever you say has been scripted by God for his purpose.

If you have that faith then you are speaking as God wills you to speak. Part of that plan would be for some to be seen as a prophet, others who believe their purpose is to speak against God. Some to say evil things to encourage evil. If you have faith then all is as it is supposed to be. Every word uttered according to God, every deed intended for Gods purpose.

People then only have the illusion of acting according to their own purpose. If God's will is supreme, then every action taken, ever word spoken is done according to God's will.

Or there is no God and man's will is supreme. In which case a prophet is only speaking for themselves.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 16, 2015

Nakosis said:
Or there is no God and man's will is supreme. In which case a prophet is only speaking for themselves

Its best to speak from ourselves. We learn better. Having our thoughts script takes the responsibility off of the believer. Whatever bad things he says is said from himself and good things from god.

Im traveling but i will reply better later today

Nakosis · Jul 16, 2015

Carlita said:
Its best to speak from ourselves. We learn better. Having our thoughts script takes the responsibility off of the believer. Whatever bad things he says is said from himself and good things from god.

Im traveling but i will reply better later today

Well, travel safely...

So you believe we can say bad things and commit bad acts to oppose God's purpose? Man is capable of opposing God's purpose? God's will can be defeated, overcome, thwarted?

Unveiled Artist · Jul 16, 2015

Nakosis said:
Well, travel safely...

So you believe we can say bad things and commit bad acts to oppose God's purpose? Man is capable of opposing God's purpose? God's will can be defeated, overcome, thwarted?

Bad things we attribute to ourselves or satan. Good things we attribute to God. It takes the consequences off the believer to know his bad things come from anything other than hiself hence the need for a savior.

Good things come from our true nature. Thats how people see the real us is by our speech and actions. They come from us. Thats what I believe; its a buddhist train of thought.

I also believe that who we are comes from our ancestors. They and our family before shaped who we are now. Our beliefs, personalities, and physical aspects come from them. Whike the Buddha says everything comes from the mind (inside out) paganism says that (each to their own) we are interacting with each other. There is no higher and lower. How I see nature, there is no higher being and we lower humans. If we call nature (which includes us and spirits) we interact with each other. All equal. No worship. Participation and reverence.

Man is capable of opposing God's purpose? God's will can be defeated, overcome, thwarted?

What do you mean?

Man and God should be equals. No one opposes another. Friensship not subbodience. No one should be a slave to God.

I believe God is life. As such, "His" will is embedded in nature and us for our survival. So, it is not thraweded.

Abrahamic God? Since God is supposed to be the Creator and not equal to His loved ones, by strict definition, no, it cant. I dont see God as all powerful and all knowing like abrahamics; so, i can only reply from what I learned not what I believe.

Nakosis · Jul 16, 2015

Carlita said:
Bad things we attribute to ourselves or satan. Good things we attribute to God. It takes the consequences off the believer to know his bad things come from anything other than hiself hence the need for a savior.

Good things come from our true nature. Thats how people see the real us is by our speech and actions. They come from us. Thats what I believe; its a buddhist train of thought.

I also believe that who we are comes from our ancestors. They and our family before shaped who we are now. Our beliefs, personalities, and physical aspects come from them. Whike the Buddha says everything comes from the mind (inside out) paganism says that (each to their own) we are interacting with each other. There is no higher and lower. How I see nature, there is no higher being and we lower humans. If we call nature (which includes us and spirits) we interact with each other. All equal. No worship. Participation and reverence.

What do you mean?

Man and God should be equals. No one opposes another. Friensship not subbodience. No one should be a slave to God.

I believe God is life. As such, "His" will is embedded in nature and us for our survival. So, it is not thraweded.

Abrahamic God? Since God is supposed to be the Creator and not equal to His loved ones, by strict definition, no, it cant. I dont see God as all powerful and all knowing like abrahamics; so, i can only reply from what I learned not what I believe.

In truth, we are probably more in agreement than not. I'm just examining the biblical position. The idea that everything has been determined by God. If I were a Christian, making that assumption, how would I go about explaining my position.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 16, 2015

Nakosis said:
If I were a Christian, making that assumption, how would I go about explaining my position.

I'm sorry, I think I'm loosing the convo. What position did you mention?

Nakosis · Jul 16, 2015

Carlita said:
I'm sorry, I think I'm loosing the convo. What position did you mention?

My fault, I'm kind of jumping threads while trying to hold the same position. Basically the Bible implies nothing happens without Gods will.

Lamentations 3:37 "Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?"

Genesis 50:20 “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.”

Second Chronicles 20:6 “O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you.”

So everything said is basically God speaking through them to further God's purpose. A person having faith in that would believe that everything they say has been given by God for them to say.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 16, 2015

Nakosis said:
My fault, I'm kind of jumping threads while trying to hold the same position. Basically the Bible implies nothing happens without Gods will.

Lamentations 3:37 "Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?"

Genesis 50:20 “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.”

Second Chronicles 20:6 “O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you.”

So everything said is basically God speaking through them to further God's purpose. A person having faith in that would believe that everything they say has been given by God for them to say.

Do you think their words are just as inspired as biblical authors? If not, what sets them a part if both are hearing God and, as a christian, speak for Him too?

Nakosis · Jul 16, 2015

Carlita said:
Do you think their words are just as inspired as biblical authors? If not, what sets them a part if both are hearing God and, as a christian, speak for Him too?

That's kind of what I was going to ask you.
I actually think some Christians believe they can speak for God. The only thing that would set them apart would be that God gave the biblical prophets more authority. Meaning that they were placed in a position of leadership.

For some Christians though I think it's a matter of respecting the authority of the church. Those who feel they can't speak for God rely on those God gave authority to.

I always thought there was something wrong with that. You'd basically have no means to validate that authority. Well there's the Bible, but that's just something they adopted from the Jews with little understanding of it.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 16, 2015

Nakosis said:
That's kind of what I was going to ask you.
I actually think some Christians believe they can speak for God. The only thing that would set them apart would be that God gave the biblical prophets more authority. Meaning that they were placed in a position of leadership.

For some Christians though I think it's a matter of respecting the authority of the church. Those who feel they can't speak for God rely on those God gave authority to.

I always thought there was something wrong with that. You'd basically have no means to validate that authority. Well there's the Bible, but that's just something they adopted from the Jews with little understanding of it.

Well, according to scripture, God does put a lot of folks im authority over others. Levites over the isrealites. Prophets over laymen. I find that wrong in the sense that authority isnt just roles, which That I understand, but right to say what is right and what is wrong. Take the Church, for example. If I said God told me as a Catholic that this teaching in the bible is to be in Church doctrine, theyd be insulted. Yet the Pope can do so and he is just as human as I am.

Also, it makes me think of how much people rely on the bible enough to base their life on it. Anyway, facinating

Forever_Catholic · Jul 16, 2015

Carlita said:
The making of a saint is an interesting teaching (lack of words) of the Church. Nothing wrong with it. I am more inclined that all christians are saints. Any person has various degrees of how close they are to God.

You're right, Carlita. My wording was not accurate. All Christians are called to be saints, and every angel and human soul in heaven is a saint, whether canonized or not. Saint just means holy. We call some by the title "Saint" because the Church knows they are in heaven; they are the angels whose names have been revealed to us and the human souls who are known to be in heaven. That's what the canonization process determines. Part of the process is verifying miracles, such as a miraculous healing that resulted through the deceased holy person's intercession with God.

Not to get into the canonization process, I just want to clarify, because I referred to faithful Christians and saints as though an ordinary Christian can't be a saint. They certainly can be. What I had in mind was an ordinary Christian like me as compared to a superlative Christian like Faustina. I should have put it that way.

Forever_Catholic · Jul 16, 2015

psychoslice said:
For me all there is, is God, and I do speak to all there is, and all there is speaks back to me in many ways.

I think "all there is" is a good description of God.

Speaking for God

Veteran Member

Consults with Trees

Veteran Member

Active Member

Veteran Member

Active Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Non-Binary Physicalist

Veteran Member

Non-Binary Physicalist

Veteran Member

Non-Binary Physicalist

Veteran Member

Non-Binary Physicalist

Veteran Member

Non-Binary Physicalist

Veteran Member

Active Member

Active Member