JW's Preach A Different Gospel

Wharton said:

Ah no. I hate to remind you of the FACT that the Levitical priesthood was put out of action when the Temple was destroyed. Jesus is not a Levitical priest. He is High Priest and King. No Levitical priest or Jewish King held both titles. Jesus is a High Priest according to the Order of who?

Jesus, his apostles and their successors are priests according to the Order of who? They offer bread and wine in the Jewish todah according to the Order of who?

This sacrifice is to go on forever so you need a priesthood according to the Order of who?

Melchizedek

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I think you've gone off track mate.
Were'nt we talking about the jewish religious system??? Yes.

Well, now you bring Melchizedeck into it and guess what.... he wasnt Jewish...wasnt an Israelite....not even a son of Abraham. So who was he? The bible records no ancestry of him. So how does he relate to your claim that Jesus and the Apostles are carrying on the Jewish religious traditions and methods?

savagewind said:

And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness; it will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it. Isaiah 35:8 Satan does not walk on that narrow road. Matthew 7:14 If satan's light shines for you then you are not on the narrow road to life.

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True, but don't let your guard down. Lucifer is the father of lies and a master deceiver. He can make someone think there following the Truth, the narrow road, while they walk straight to hell being blind. That's one reason me and other Christians are hear, to try to show the road the JW's are traveling may seem to them to be narrow, but those not indoctrinated by the Watchtower can see that road is far more broad then they think.

Katzpur said:

Then you can add first century Christianity to your list of false religions, unless you believe that the Apostles were not human leaders.

Oh, katie, how I wish you were not so filled with hatred. Whenever I read a comment like this, I can't help but think of Mark 9:38-41, which says:

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

The Apostles apparently thought that Jesus would be quite proud of them for looking down their noses at someone they apparently worshipped a false Christ and followed a false gospel. Jesus rebuked them and told them not to be so exclusionary in the future, and that "he that is not against us is on our part." I feel very confident that He would tell you exactly the same thing.

Please don't misrepresent Mormonism. I know you would like everyone to hate us as much as you do, but at least get your facts straight.

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Is this not Mormonism?
Not very Biblical at all. At. All.

Wharton said:

Ah no. I hate to remind you of the FACT that the Levitical priesthood was put out of action when the Temple was destroyed. Jesus is not a Levitical priest. He is High Priest and King. No Levitical priest or Jewish King held both titles. Jesus is a High Priest according to the Order of who?

Jesus, his apostles and their successors are priests according to the Order of who? They offer bread and wine in the Jewish todah according to the Order of who?

This sacrifice is to go on forever so you need a priesthood according to the Order of who?

Melchizedek

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As a christian, you also are a priest.

Pegg said:

Well thats a shame because you are being gravely misled by apostates who actively seek to keep people away from Jehovah by slyly twisting what we say and do.

One thing ive come to realise too is that anyone who continues to believe in the trinity will never come to know Jehovah because he is a God who requires exclusive devotion....and you cant give that to him if you dividing your worship between 3 gods. You think you can but i assure you its impossible.
And that is why the majority of christians do not even know who Jehovah is and for that reason alone they will not find salvation.

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So every single person who leaves the Watchtower and tells of why they left and how they found Jesus, they all are just deceivers and liars? That's one way to keep people from questioning the Watchtower I guess.
And the majority of Christians don't know who God is? Wow. Just wow what a statement drenched in superiority and ignorance

JFish123 said:

True, but don't let your guard down. Lucifer is the father of lies and a master deceiver. He can make someone think there following the Truth, the narrow road, while they walk straight to hell being blind. That's one reason me and other Christians are hear, to try to show the road the JW's are traveling may seem to them to be narrow, but those not indoctrinated by the Watchtower can see that road is far more broad then they think.

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Amen! Never let your guard down. Pray always! And study the Scriptures, not the doctrines of men.

Let it always be just God, my Bible and me.

Pegg said:

So what do you think Revelation 14:1 means then?

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Revelation 7:4 refers to 144,000 Jews given divine protection from the trumpet judgments. The 144,000 people described in two passages of the Bible: Revelation 7:1-8 and 14:1-5. According to the first passage, they are "the servants of . . . God" (7:3) who are pictured as being sealed upon their foreheads. Verses 4-8 depict there being 12,000 sealed from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, giving a total of 144,000.
In Revelation 14:1 we are told that the seal on their foreheads is Christ's and his Father's name. The 144,000 are with Jesus, and they sing a unique song of worship, which no one else can learn (14:3). In 14:4-5 we are told more about their identity: "It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste [Greek, "virgins"]; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless."
The Witnesses say these people represent the Church of Christ, the Israel of God, and this is a common view among Bible scholars, one that has had a long history in the interpretation of Revelation. The 144,000 are taken as a symbol of the Christian faithful. It is what Witnesses say next that is bizarre.
Supposedly God began collecting the 144,000 at Pentecost in A.D. 33 but stopped collecting them in 1935, when the full number was reached. Some of the 144,000 are still living, and they are all Jehovah's Witnesses. In 1986 there were only about 9,000 of the 144,000 left alive. Even less now. And Since the Jehovah's Witnesses are a larger group, possessing several million members, how are the rest of the Witnesses regarded? As non-members of the body of Christ. They will still be saved in the end, but they will not be part of the body and will not go to heaven. They are considered part of the "great crowd" mentioned in Revelation 7:9-10.
In Jehovah's Witness "kingdom halls" (church buildings) only members of the 144,000 are allowed to receive communion when the Lord's Supper is celebrated (which is done infrequently). Sometimes kingdom halls celebrate the Lord's Supper and no one receives communion since none of the 144,000 are present.
Needless to say, the Witness's view is riddled with holes. They must realize that they are being inconsistent in how they interpret the texts where the 144,000 are mentioned. They insist that there are exactly 144,000 of these people, no more and no less, making it a literal number, but they interpret every other detail about this group in a symbolic manner.
If they were consistent, they would have to conclude that the 144,000 are Jews, drawn equally from the twelve tribes of Israel (most of which are now unrecognizably lost), that they are all male virgins who do not lie and who have two names literally written on their foreheads. The problem is that almost none of the 9,000 Witnesses supposed to be members of this group fit this description. Many of them are married Gentile women with children, and they presumably have bent the truth more than a few times in their lives.
The only detail from the text that the Witnesses take literally is the number. Every other detail of the text is taken non-literally. They should either take all of the details literally or see the 144,000 as a symbol of the Church as a whole (as does virtually everyone else).

Wharton said:

Like most Protestants you kick Mary to the curb.

Remember, without her, you have no redemption. Humanity has to be involved in its redemption. Mary supplies the humanity of Jesus.

What would you call her then?

Give us your title for Mary.

Is she just a vessel to be used, abused and forgotten by God and humanity?

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Jesus was also human, so He fills that role for our redemption. Having any co-redeemer is unbiblical. We have one redeemer that is the Christ Jesus.

Pegg said:

I think you've gone off track mate.
Were'nt we talking about the jewish religious system??? Yes.

Well, now you bring Melchizedeck into it and guess what.... he wasnt Jewish...wasnt an Israelite....not even a son of Abraham. So who was he? The bible records no ancestry of him. So how does he relate to your claim that Jesus and the Apostles are carrying on the Jewish religious traditions and methods?

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Best you head off to the Kingdom Hall for instruction from an elder. BTW, I guess Paul is saying Jesus wasn't really Jewish then? And what is Jesus offering at the Last Supper? Psst, the same items as Melchizadek

Here's your NWT:

11 If, then, perfection was attainable through the Levitical priesthood+ (for it was a feature of the Law that was given to the people), what further need would there be for another priest to arise who is said to be in the manner of Mel·chiz′e·dek+ and not in the manner of Aaron? 12 For since the priesthood is being changed, it becomes necessary to change the Law as well.+ 13 For the man about whom these things are said came from another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.+ 14 For it is clear that our Lord has descended from Judah,+ yet Moses said nothing about priests coming from that tribe. 15 And this becomes even clearer when another priest+ arises who is like Mel·chiz′e·dek,+ 16 who has become such, not by the legal requirement that depends on fleshly descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.+ 17 For it is said in witness of him: “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chiz′e·dek.”+

JFish123 said:

Jesus was also human, so He fills that role for our redemption. Having any co-redeemer is unbiblical. We have one redeemer that is the Christ Jesus.

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Who supplies the humanity of Jesus? Mary. No Mary or any other willing human virgin female, no Jesus. No redemption. No mediator between God and man. So what would YOU call Mary?

BTW, that's Mary's supplied humanity hanging on the cross.

katiemygirl said:

As a christian, you also are a priest.

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You are baptized priest, prophet and king.

BTW, since you are a priest, that implies that you offer sacrifices. What sacrifices do you offer?

JFish123 said:

So every single person who leaves the Watchtower and tells of why they left and how they found Jesus, they all are just deceivers and liars? That's one way to keep people from questioning the Watchtower I guess.
And the majority of Christians don't know who God is? Wow. Just wow what a statement drenched in superiority and ignorance

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Where does that leave the 66% of J.W.s that were formerly Catholic?
I believe that Pegg was inferring that most Christian churches don't teach
God's name (Jehovah), not that they were clueless as to who their god is.

katiemygirl said:

Let it always be just God, my Bible and me.

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At that point, you become a "father" that Jesus mentioned in the NT. Or in today's words, you are a self-appointed bishop.

jeager106 said:

Where does that leave the 66% of J.W.s that were formerly Catholic?

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In deep doo-doo, if unrepentent. In worse shape than Peter who denied Jesus three times-but then he repented.

Wharton said:

In deep doo-doo, if unrepentent. In worse shape than Peter who denied Jesus three times-but then he repented.

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Do you pronounce them apostate?

jeager106 said:

Do you pronounce them apostate?

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Why would I pronounce them apostate?

Wharton said:

Why would I pronounce them apostate?

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Because the renounced faith in the RCC?
Do you agree that the RCC Pope is directed by God and is God's human channel
to Catholics on earth?
Does the RCC claim to be the only path to salvation?
Does the RCC make claims that they are the ONLY way to salvation?
Why is this so different from what claims you make about J.W.'s and their doctrine?

="Pegg, post: 4362880, member: 23994"]
Its not saying that Jesus is not a mediator for all mankind, its specifically speaking of the 'New Covenant' which he instituted with his 11 faithful apostles on the night before he died:

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While its true that the 'New Covenant' is between Jesus and his 144,000, it doesnt mean he is not mediating on behalf of all mankind. He is and his entire purpose was for the benefit of all mankind.

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Pegg, the quote says Jesus is the mediator ONLY FOR ANOINTED CHRISTIANS.

Yet, you said in your earlier post that the 144,000 don't need a mediator. You seem confused.

"So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians."
Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31

It is repeated again. JESUS CHRIST IS NOT THE MEDIATOR BETWEEN JEHOVAH GOD AND ALL MANKIND. HIS MEDIATORSHIP IS LIMITED TO ONLY 144,000.

"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members."Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace"(1986) pp.10-11

Are you a member of ALL MANKIND? The quote above specifically says Jesus is NOT mediator between God and all mankind.

The quote says Jesus' mediatorship is LIMITED to ONLY 144,000. What do the words LIMITED and ONLY mean to you?

Wharton said:

Like most Protestants you kick Mary to the curb.

Remember, without her, you have no redemption. Humanity has to be involved in its redemption. Mary supplies the humanity of Jesus.

What would you call her then?

Give us your title for Mary.

Is she just a vessel to be used, abused and forgotten by God and humanity?

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I'm not protestant.

Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and blessed among women to have been given that role. She is not my redeemer. Jesus alone is my redeemer.

I give Mary the same honor the Bible gives her, and nothing more.

JFish123 said:

Is this not Mormonism?

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No, it's certain not.

Not very Biblical at all. At. All.

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And not very accurate at all, either. At All.

For starters, the even title "Banned Mormon Cartoon" is beyond ludicrous. The Mormon Church doesn't ban its members from watching anything. If everything in the film was actually taken from Mormon publications, as the producer claims, why on earth wouldn't the Church actually want us to see it. That claim is pure crap. It's a sensationalized distortion of Mormon beliefs. Obviously, people who are into that kind of thing will obvious eat it up.

Secondly, the cartoon itself is a sick parody of Mormon beliefs. It's a mean-spirited caricature of what we believe and is inaccurate in so many respects that it's not even funny. It is brimming over with exaggerations, half-truths and flat out lies. It was produced by people who hate us and would love everyone else to hate us. You obviously want to believe this garbage, so be my guest. If you should ever decide that you would like an accurate, factual picture of Mormon doctrine, stop by the LDS DIR and I'll be happy to fill you in on what we really believe.