Is Elohim plural in Hebrew?

Hi Sandy,
It is Stitchin that I've read in the books but I first came upon the subject through watching documentaries on Discovery channel I think and then talking were a few different people and Erich Von (something!) was on there. I forgot about it really then came across a site at www.xfacts.com
It was here I'm sure there was a seminar/speech thats online to watch were a man gets pretty deep into all this and names Zaccharia Stitchin as an author and credible speaker on the subject. It then started too piece together in my mind of the other times I'd unwittingly been hearing about the same group of people (Annunaki)

I have to agree Bunny1Ohio, that it really is puzzling as to why such an intelligent and early civilisation that gave the world so many firsts (farming and agriculture as well as maths and writings and geometry, astronomy etc), would go into such detail about these alien visiters and also have so much evidence about our solar system even back then (around 3000 BC I think ).

If they weren't aliens, could they have been angels or even satans demons in the guise of helpful aliens if indeed there is a huge plot by the devil to keep man from God, not something I'm entriely convinced of. Gods the all powerful, why then not crush the devil and save his loving children?

Atheist or not Bunny, I love to hear all theories, they can all teach us something new and help us to look in a different light, which is how we gain knowledge.
So fire on my friend and tell me abit more on your theory (ies) about the Genesis tales.

( I was also intrigued to see how many times the bible seems to contradict itself in the story of which came first between man and other living things, it gets more puzzling the more you look into it doesn't it? )

Thanks again all who have contributed to this link, its been an eye opener for me

MessianMystic,
Your right, we really do need to ask questions, it is very important for us to share opinions and even argue on the matters, in a friendly fashion of course!

Without a difference in opinion the world would be a very dull place and personally to me even reading things I may disagree with can still hold alot of interest and anything that can break the mould of ' normal ' thinking has got to be a good thing.
I remember being 15/16 and not having a care in the world, hey and it weren't that far back either before the snide comments commence! .
The world was such a different place. Sure I had lots of fun but I had no idea of what an anomaly the world was and how interesting and intriguing life really is.

As I started having experiences of spirits ( not too good either at first) and started trying to understand this different dimension/world, I started reading on the subject and learning from my dad ( he was a spiritual healer, something I now do, though he's gone on to be a born again Christian with the rest of the family, adding more confusion and interest to the mix.Now he views what he did and I do,as being influenced by evil and all part of the plan to keep us from Jesus ! ).

From there everything snowballed and my eyes were opened to many other theories and experiences that life has brought to people, or they have believed life has brought them. Life is now so far away from what I thought it was, that its completely different world and that still amazes me.
It also makes me sad to think of all those still stuck in the level of thought that I was at, many friends still are, though some have opened up to the other many possibilities and some have even had their very own experiences of seemingly other worldy things.

Looking back its brought endless streams of thought and curious mindbending things, that could be somewhat tormenting if you let your mind run away with itself.
But there again its marvellous to realise there is something more to life than getting up at 4.30am five or six days a week, to do a crappy meaningless job and then get high all weekend,oblivious to the questions life asks and just waiting for the time to come were you get married have kids and let them become a part of that same vicious circle and pointless existence.

Without questions man would be so dumb he wouldn't even realise his life was dull

sandy whitelinger said:

Elohim is a plural noun denoting a singular entity much as we might say a bunch of grapes. Bunch is a plural noun. When used to describe one bunch of grapes it is singular in meaning.

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I think that's a pretty good analogy. You can't have a "bunch" of grapes if there is only one grape. On the other hand, each grape in the bunch is recognizable as an individual entity. Elohim is an excellent example of a collective noun, or a noun which, in the singular form, denotes a collection of individuals; it is treated as singular when the collection is thought of as a whole and as plural when the individual members are thought of as acting separately. This same concept would accurately describe the Godhead.

tiano said:

Thanks for all the info given here by everyone, its curiously puzzling as to why 'God' and not Gods, would say the bit about making them in OUR image.


Thanks all

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According to the bible , Jesus as Gods only - begotten Son, only begotten being the only one created by Jehovah God , was there when man was made, in fact he was a master worker and played a very big part in every thing created , so when Jehovah God said let US make man he was talking to his son ,as he was in the heavens with his father.As proverbs 8 ;22-31 is talking about Jesus in his pre- human life.
Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men

tiano said:

I have to agree Bunny1Ohio, that it really is puzzling as to why such an intelligent and early civilisation that gave the world so many firsts (farming and agriculture as well as maths and writings and geometry, astronomy etc), would go into such detail about these alien visiters and also have so much evidence about our solar system even back then (around 3000 BC I think ).

Atheist or not Bunny, I love to hear all theories, they can all teach us something new and help us to look in a different light, which is how we gain knowledge.
So fire on my friend and tell me abit more on your theory (ies) about the Genesis tales.

( I was also intrigued to see how many times the bible seems to contradict itself in the story of which came first between man and other living things, it gets more puzzling the more you look into it doesn't it? )

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Yes it really does get stranger as the story goes on

Okay then... *deep breath*... bear in mind everyone who reads this post that I am not stating that I believe this to be the truth... but an interesting direction... I have posted something similar to this in an older thread so some of you may have already seen this

1) Eden (Nibiru?) is not a "garden" but a planet... maybe a gardenlike planet... but where our "originators" came from...
2) highly evolved society who has basically eliminated crime and the need for prisons and the like.... Adam and Eve could be the "racial" parents (as in the male and female members of the society, not individuals) of our world....
3) Members of this society come to explore other planets for natural resources (metal ores etc.) but don't have the manpower to mine the resources they find so they alter the current life forms on this planet to be intelligent and obedient enough to help them (Genesis/creation/"in our image")
4) After mining for some time they begin to teach (instruction from G-d?) science, math, language etc... they see that these beings are not as peaceful as they are so they use forms of control (laws & punishment) and then they leave us to govern ourselves...
5) Meanwhile on Nibiru :biglaugh: .... a society member (Cain) commits an atrocious crime of some type and is considered unsafe to live in society anymore... but they have no prisons and no true crime anymore... so where should he be sent?

How about to that planet (Nod/Earth?) where the people are as violent as him and he cannot escape because they aren't evolved enough to even come close to space travel so he could never leave (a prison)... "and there he met his wife"

Sumerian culture was from around 2150BC or so :jiggy:

The discrepancies you point out between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are much appreciated. I just noticed recently that in Genesis 2 it says something to the effect of "in the day they were created" referring to the generations of the heaven and the earth. There is definitely a lot we don't fully understand about the creation account in Genesis.

Regarding the quotes about tails and such, you can find these in a book called "The Talmudic Anthology". They appear in the section on creation and evolution. Concerning being made in the image and likeness of the Greatly Revered One, I don't think this has anything to do with looks. I believe the Hebrew root for "image" has to do with darkness or shadow, and I take it to mean that we are made "in His shadow". Idiomatically speaking, this conveys that we are lesser, which is still what it means in English today to be "in someone's shadow" or to be "overshadowed". On the other hand, I believe that "likeness" or "resemblance" refers to the fact that we possess authority over creation as He possesses authority over us. I believe this based on the fact that, at least twice, the concept of our being in His "likeness" is joined with a statement of our authority over creation. As a side note, it is quite sad that we have so horribly abused this responsibility.

Concerning other passages about the sons of Elohim and their offspring, the nephilim, much of the book of Jude is relevant, as is Deuteronomy 32:8. It seems that there is a cover up in Deuteronomy 32:8, even as early as the Masoretic Text. In the MT, this passage states something to the effect that the Most High divided up the nations according to the "sons of Israel". However, in the Dead Sea Scrolls "4QDeut", it can be seen that the phrase "sons of Israel" was originally "sons of Elohim". The Septuagint translates the same phrase specifically as "angels". What this appears to be saying is that the Most High set a particular angel in charge of each of the nations, but goes on to say that he kept Israel for himself. This makes sense with the passage in Daniel 10 where an angelic messenger is held up by "the King of Persia" and Micheal is sent to do battle with this "king" so that the messenger can proceed to Daniel. It seems clear in the context that the "King of Persia" is not an earthly King, but rather an angel, like Micheal and the messenger he engages.

I personally believe it is important to note that there is an inherent difference between angels, fallen or not, and demons. I think it's around chapter 14 of the Book of Enoch that says demons are the souls of the nephilim who died in the flood, that they must remain on the earth, and that they will torment men until the end of the age. From this, I deduce that demons must possess a living thing, whereas, angels of either sort, can manifest their own bodies as required by Genesis 6 and shown in the account of the three angelic strangers that appear as men to Abraham.

Some other passages that are especially relevant here are fragments of what is called the Book of Giants, found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. In these fragments, Gilgamesh is mentioned, and they seem to indicate that the nephilim defiled themselves with beasts and begat monsters. Ancient mythology and some modern archeaology seem to indicate that both giants and monsters (aka dinosaurs) were witnessed by ancient man. Another reference comes to mind. I believe in Daniel, mention is made of the watchers, which is the term Enoch uses for the fallen sons of Elohim. Enoch also records, as you've pointed out other mythology does, that these fallen angels taught men secret things. Enoch is specific as to what angels taught what.

All in all, the correspondence between ancient flood, giant, and extraterrestrial accounts around the world and not just in Mesopotamia, shows that these things cannot simply be dismissed as ancient fiction and bedtime stories. Think about Hercules and Gilgamesh and others like them. They were the product of gods and human women and were giants. Genesis 6 outright says that the nephilim were the "heroes of old men of renown." I personally believe that the gods of polytheism were and are angels and that what we call aliens today are the same. In fact, Yeshua says to his disciples that before the coming of the son of man, it will be as it was in the days of Noah. Furthermore, in associating certain of these fallen sons of Elohim with the skills they taught, Enoch seems to make it clear that the one who taught weapon making became the polytheist's god of war and so on with the others. It is interesting to note as well that there were wars between these angels just as between the gods.

To me, this is an incredibly interesting and fruitful area of study that explains a lot. If you haven't yet, try to find some information on the Dokon tribe in Africa and their advanced knoweledge of the dog star. If I didn't mention it already I think string theory is helpful in understanding all this as well. I recommend the book "The Elegant Universe". It seems that these beings what ever you call them are extradimensional and not merely extraterrestrial. The possibility of extra dimensions provides an understanding of many things that we call "miracles". I hope this is helpful, and I hope that I don't come across arrogantly. This is just really exciting to me.

messianicmystic said:

All in all, the correspondence between ancient flood, giant, and extraterrestrial accounts around the world and not just in Mesopotamia, shows that these things cannot simply be dismissed as ancient fiction and bedtime stories.

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Actually, it shows just the opposite. It demonstrates a world rife with ignorant superstition ... as do you.

messianicmystic said:

I personally believe that the gods of polytheism were and are angels and that what we call aliens today are the same.

It is interesting to note as well that there were wars between these angels just as between the gods.

If you haven't yet, try to find some information on the Dokon tribe in Africa and their advanced knoweledge of the dog star. If I didn't mention it already I think string theory is helpful in understanding all this as well. I recommend the book "The Elegant Universe". It seems that these beings what ever you call them are extradimensional and not merely extraterrestrial. The possibility of extra dimensions provides an understanding of many things that we call "miracles". I hope this is helpful, and I hope that I don't come across arrogantly. This is just really exciting to me.

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You didn't come across as arrogant at all :hug: You answered my questions much more fully than I expected to see, so thank you :flower2:

Actually I have read up quite a bit about the Dogons.... Their knowledge of deep space is incredible... especially about the Dogstar and its companion star that science was not even aware of for centuries.... they say it is the "smallest possible thing and heavier than anything on earth"... science has finally found this smaller companion star and they say it is EXTREMELY dense (very heavy) it cannot be seen with a telescope except for a deep space scope like Hubbel... Something I find fascinating is that they speak about a third star near Sirius (Dogstar) ... it is one that if it exists... science hasn't found it yet.... but if they do... :faint:

I've heard of the string theory, but haven't really had a chance to look into it very much so far.... could you give a layman's rundown on it.... if that's possible.... some theories are too complicated to phrase simply.... but I also do believe in extradimensional space/time.... to me that would explain how modern day UFOs (if you believe in them) can just vanish.... as well as ghost stories and other such things...

Do you know much about Mobius? Some of his mathematical theories were amazingly advanced for his time.... and a bit wild to the people in his day... but fascinating

Jayhawker Soule said:

Actually, it shows just the opposite. It demonstrates a world rife with ignorant superstition ... as do you.

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Hmmmm..... that's a rather rude statement to be making.... how much do YOU know about the topic being discussed? Have you ever read about the Sumerian creation myths? The Dogons? How about the Vimana in ancient India.... there are flood stories worldwide... as there are ancient "visitor" stories worldwide... in every single ancient culture. Unless you have read their stories how can possible assume anyone else is ignorant for wanting to know if there is any truth to the stories since they are all VERY similar. There are even CAVE PAINTINGS of flying saucers and aliens (or what looks like the modern day "greys"). Have you researched any of this or are you just making an ignorant statement about something you know a minimal amount about and therefore feel it is wrong because it doesn't follow your "accepted" teachings? I guess if common courtesy was so common everyone would have it... no? :tsk:

I agree with MessianicMystic and Bunny on this one, there really does seem something in these theories. These ancient civilisations or peoples had a vast knowledge of things way before we did in space. These were obviously very intelligent peoples, so why would they make up stories of such sorts about these visits from aliens or ufo's.
If these people just had over active imaginations, then its starnge how other civilisations and peoples from all around the world, also came up with very similar stories that they would of had to make up too.
You can't comment on things you've not looked into properly ( as I just found out myself in regards in Islam) and expect to give a credible assumption. If people do read into these many histroical records then you have to admit that many have credible evidence and really do in the least deserve proper investigation and respect.
How can an ancient people with no telescopes anywhere near as powerful as modern mans, have more knowledge of sapce and our solar system than man in the 1930s or whenever Pluto was actually ' discovered ', by modern man?
Many scientists believed Columbus was the first man to find America yet there's been documentaries on the Vikings finding it much earlier and maps from other ancient cultures showing the outlines of the east coast of the USA.
Modern science loves to pat itself on the back and make claims of its finds yet more often than not,modern science is only rediscovering ancient knowledge.

I've ordered the book you mentioned Messianic Mystic and am looking forward to checking it out. I've seen spirits on a few occasions and watched spirits disappear into thin air and believe there's something in the multi dimension theory.
When searching for information on any subject,you try and find out the earliest known evidence about that subject as you'd expect that to hold the most credibility and the least distortion. The Sumerians are the keepers of the first known written records left by man and why would they lie about how they were educated?

Its not like their records are just propaganda glorifying their culture, as they could quite easily of made out they discovered all these things alone, without outside help.
Most historical records left by civilisations distort what actually happenned in their history to paint them in a better life and make them look even better than what they were. The Sumerians clearly state they had outside help which to me offers more credibility to their cause

bunny1ohio said:

There are even CAVE PAINTINGS of flying saucers and aliens (or what looks like the modern day "greys").

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The brain is a terrible thing to waste ...

So may different opinions and they all are stated as if they're undeniable fact. the truth is that elohim is used many different ways in the original Hebrew, sometimes referring to God, gods or angels; sometimes accompanying a singular pronoun or verb, sometimes plural, sometimes even referring to human beings. The fact is that we don't know exactly what it means. Biblical Hebrew is a dead language and we only understand words insofar as they are repeated in the Hebrew Bible. We learn their significance by looking at other instances where they are used and comparing the contexts with what modern Hebrew says, with what other Ancient Near Eastern languages say, with what the culture practiced, with the time period the text is from with a dozen other factors to arrive at a very, very good guess at to what it means. I'll give you an example. In Hebrew you tell someone's age by saying they are a "son of" so many years. This is consistent throughout the whole Bible. I Samuel 13:1 says ben-shana saul b'malcho, u'shtei shanim malach 'al-israel. Literally translated this means "Son of year was Saul when he began to reign, and two years ruled over Israel." Some think this means Saul was one when he began to reign, others say he had reigned a year, and when he had reigned two years blah, blah, blah. Neither are correct, but we just don't know what it means. The scribes are either using a euphamism we are not aware of or they made a mistake. Absolutely no way of knowing, unless some other textsare discovered that show us similar habits of other Semites during the same general time period. Is Elohim plual or singular? Nobody knows, but everyone has their own interpretation and dogma to indoctrinate you with. Don't think anybody knows any better than anyone else, becaue they don't! Have fun!

bunny1ohio said:

Hmmmm..... that's a rather rude statement to be making.... I guess if common courtesy was so common everyone would have it... no? :tsk:

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I see you're a bit new here. you will come to find that there are some who are very rude, condescending, arrogant and seeming incapable of civil conversation. They are best ignored.

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to your last set of questions, Bunny. Regarding string theory, I'll start a new thread on that called String Theory and the Spiritual Realm, since it may be somewhat off topic here. Also, I have not heard of Mobius or his mathematics. Perhaps you could start a thread on that. Thanks.

sandy whitelinger said:

I see you're a bit new here. you will come to find that there are some who are very rude, condescending, arrogant and seeming incapable of civil conversation. They are best ignored.

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VERY true sandy... but you would figure an "actual" reply wouldn't be too difficult.... if they could type what they did... why not tell us WHY they feel that way? But I suppose ignorance is bliss in some cases lol