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Abiogenesis is evolution

ScottySatan

Well-Known Member
To deny abiogenesis when you argue against creationists makes the scientific viewpoint look a lot worse than it really is. Anyone smart who thinks about evolution will come to the question of abiogenesis naturally. Where did we come from? Where did our ancestors come from? Where did their ancestors come from? Oh, it boils down to a single celled organism? Well, I guess that answers all my questions and I'll stop my investigation right there, no need to think about where those things came from, right? Does that make sense to you? **** no!

Biologists study abiogenesis. Some are in the department of biochemistry, but where are most? The evolutionary science department. In what journals do they publish? Evolutionary science journals. Which conferences do they attend? Evolutionary science conferences.

WHY? Because cells are believed to have formed out of spontaneous generation of order that is well known in physics (Micelles, etc.). Hereditary molecules are believed to come from inorganic materials like clay (RNA world hypothesis). The first inorganic molecule to crudely copy itself (we do observe a level of self replication at about the level of crudeness and inefficiency that we would expect in a prebiotic world, today. See prions), did so on accident, and the child molecules that were better at this went faster via natural selection. If you don't think inorganic molecules can replicate or pass on information, look up the propagation reactions of free radicals. Abiogenesis is very chemical in nature, but noble laymen who like to argue for us don't understand that modern evolution is equally chemical.

In the future, please do us a favor by admitting that you don't know enough chemistry or enough about abiogenesis in general to make arguments about this very relevant branch of evolutionary science, but point out to them that it does exist, that there are books on the subject, and maybe you can check one out yourself.
 
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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Abiogenesis has a lot to do with evolution, that's true, but evolution is not dependent on abiogenesis. There are currently several different ideas of how life started, but none of them changes how evolution works after the fact.

No one asks where the metal in the car came from or how it was produced when you buy a car. The car manufacturer is interested in the quality of the metal and price, but won't bother much over where it came from (as long as quality and price is met). Carpenters don't have to know the answer to how quantum mechanics works or where it came from to hammer a nail. Hammering still works. Evolution is the same way, it works on its own. But, knowing the answer to how life began can give more light to particular things in evolution, for instance why certain things are the way they are instead of something else (like the left v right somethin' somethin'...).

Anyway, yes, abiogenesis is part of evolution, but evolution is not built upon abiogenesis or dependent on it.

Besides, "Evolution" isn't just a single science but more of an overlapping, inter-science. It's like what algebra is to calculus. Abiogenesis is like number theory to algebra. You can do well in algebra, and it works, even if you don't understand number theory or set theory. There are still fields of study in math that are unresolved, but that doesn't suddenly make L'Hospital's rule wrong now, does it? No one questioned trigonometry even before Fermat's last theorem was proved.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
This is very sad because people deny that abiogenesis is part of evolution with a dismissive tone that makes creationists thing that no answer exists.

Know that your view on abiogenesis is by your own choice, that the scientific community does not agree.

The evolutionary origin of biological function and complexity. Pross A. J Mol Evol. 2013 Apr;76(4):185-91.
But they aren't arguing it isn't evolution, they're arguing that evolution exists independently of how life started, be it abiogenesis, some manner of initial creation, panspermia or whatever the root cause happens to be.

The idea is to get people to recognize that evolution is a fact, one that is compatible with nigh-every faith. In this context, abiogenesis is simply not important. Evolution is a mechanism, independent from any origin of life theory.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Evolution begins where biogensis ends. They are closely related, given they are both sub-fields of biology, but they really do not address the same issues. Biogenesis is the question of how we got here. Evolution is the question of how we came to be.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
This is very sad because people deny that abiogenesis is part of evolution with a dismissive tone that makes creationists thing that no answer exists.

Know that your view on abiogenesis is by your own choice, that the scientific community does not agree.

The evolutionary origin of biological function and complexity. Pross A. J Mol Evol. 2013 Apr;76(4):185-91.
Also, notice that it's published on NCBI, which is a website dealing with medicine and biology. Evolution and abiogenesis (and biogenesis in general, not just abiogenesis) falls under biology, genetic, biochemistry, chemistry, physics, math (surprising enough), and many other sciences. To exclude abiogenesis (as opposed to other biogenesis theories) to only be the one belonging to evolution, and evolution being completely dependent on its explanation, that's what the problem is about.

Is abiogenesis evolution? Yes and no (both answers at the same time).

When an article is talking about the evolutionary origins like in the one above, they're talking about a different view of the term "evolution". The term evolution is also used in astrophysics (evolution of the universe, stars, or what-have-you), and also in engineering (like "evolution of cars" or "evolution of cell phones"). The abiogenesis evolution and biological evolution are different. Biological evolution deals with how DNA, genes, nucleotides, etc can mutate and be selected for or against. Abiogenesis deals with how DNA, genes, nucleotides can come into existence, i.e. a form of biochemical evolution.

Let me say this, I took some classes where we studied evolution (and did labs and some small amount of research, nothing big, but enough to really convince me of its validity), but not a single time, not one chapter, nothing was dealing with abiogenesis. We studied genes, different types of selective pressure and more, even did some math (who would think that the quadratic formula would show up there), but we never had anything about abiogenesis or biogenesis in general. All the things we studied stood on their own merits. Abiogenesis isn't an issue for the other things to be true, even if it partially fall under the same umbrella of study.

Take that old experiment that is mentioned at times, Miller-Urey, which was to show how some components of life can occur naturally. Miller was a chemist. Urey was a physical chemist. It was based on hypothesis by Oparin, biochemist, and Haldane, biologist. The thing is, "evolution" isn't by itself a field of science the same way as biology, mathematics, chemistry, physics, etc. It falls mostly under biology, biochemistry, genetics, but also falls under medicine, computer science, mathematics, and more. Abiogenesis falls mostly under biochemistry, chemistry, and physics, and not as much under the other fields (like computer science).
 
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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
This is how Wikipedia separates the subjects:
The chemical processes that took place on the early Earth are called chemical evolution. Both Manfred Eigen and Sol Spiegelmandemonstrated that evolution, including replication, variation, and natural selection, can occur in populations of molecules as well as in organisms.[31] Spiegelman took advantage of natural selection to synthesize Spiegelman's Monster, which had a genome with just 218 bases. Eigen built on Spiegelman's work and produced a similar system with just 48 or 54 nucleotides.[73]

Chemical evolution was followed by the initiation of biological evolution, which led to the first cells.[31]
When we talk about Theory of Evolution, 99% of the time we're referring to the biological evolution.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
In the future, please do us a favor by admitting that you don't know enough chemistry or enough about abiogenesis in general to make arguments about this very relevant branch of evolutionary science, but point out to them that it does exist, that there are books on the subject, and maybe you can check one out yourself.
In the future, please do us a favor by not expounding on issues you are obviously ignorant of.* Almost all of us here, evolutionists and creationists alike, are aware of the parameters of evolution and creationism, and treat them accordingly.

* Unless your objective here is to entertain us.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
In the future, please do us a favor by not expounding on issues you are obviously ignorant of.* Almost all of us here, evolutionists and creationists alike, are aware of the parameters of evolution and creationism, and treat them accordingly.
Please do the rest of us a favor and don't play into the Creationist word games. We aren't Byerleeist or Doplerist or Germist or Jouleist, so why should we entertain them by adopting the term evolutionist?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Please do the rest of us a favor and don't play into the Creationist word games. We aren't Byerleeist or Doplerist or Germist or Jouleist, so why should we entertain them by adopting the term evolutionist?
I'm quite certain that mathematicians are calculians and algebrists. And let's not talk about those pesky trigonometrarians. **Ugh**...
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Please do the rest of us a favor and don't play into the Creationist word games. We aren't Byerleeist or Doplerist or Germist or Jouleist, so why should we entertain them by adopting the term evolutionist?


evolutionist

[ev-uh-loo-shuh-nist or, esp. British, ee-vuh-]
noun
1.
a person who believes in or supports a theory of evolution, especially in biology.

________________________________________________________________________

ev·o·lu·tion·ist
ˌevəˈlo͞oSHənəst/
noun
noun: evolutionist; plural noun: evolutionists
  1. 1.
    a person who believes in the theories of evolution and natural selection.
_________________________________________________________________________​

evolutionist
noun [C] /ˌev·əˈlu·ʃə·nɪst, ˌi·və-/

› science someone who believes in or supports the theory of evolution




Because it's appropriate?

Do you regard it as pejorative?
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
I regard it as creationist mambo-jumbo because no-one, despite the strong evidence, is a "gravitationist."
Okey dokey.
shrug_n2.gif
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
I'm perfectly fine with the term evolutionist.

As has been said before, abiogenesis is relevant to evolution but isn't a requirement for it.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Abiogensis is part of evolution. Hopefully people do not deny that. However the problem when debating creationists is that they take the weaker evidence for abiogensis and somehow conclude that this reflects upon the theory of evolution as a whole. This is factually un-true and the diversification of species is the core and root of the theory while abiogensis is a tangent of the theory that talks about one specific issue.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Abiogenesis is not part of evolution. There is a connection, sure, but everything is connected if you look at a big enough picture. Aboriculture is connected to the printing industry, but few printers would know anything about it.
 
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