Can someone explain the Trinity please...

URAVIP2ME · Feb 2, 2015

katiemygirl said:
In the beginning WAS the word, and the word WAS with God, and the word WAS God. John 1:1
And the word became flesh. John 1:14
Unless you want to start adding to or changing the original language of these verses, they say what they say. You can let man's arguments convince you that the verses say something different. It's your choice. As for me, I'll stick with what these verses say both in the Greek and the English languages. The word WAS God!
Genesis 18. YHWH came in the form of a man. He appeared and spoke to Abraham.
Obviously, there has to be more to understanding the verse which says no man can see God and live. Abraham did see God, and he lived! Imho, no man can see God in all of His glory and live. Maybe that's what the verse means. I don't know. All I know is people saw Jesus who is God and lived. Abraham saw God in the form of a man and he lived. This fact cannot be denied.
What people saw was the human Jesus. They weren't looking at the God Jesus. That's how I see it anyway.
But no matter how you cut it, the word was with God in the beginning and the word was God.

Please note KJV is Not consistent . The same Greek grammar rule applies at Acts 28 v 6 B ...and says that he (Paul ) was ' a ' god. Yet KJV omits the ' a ' at John 1 v 1. Plus KJV adds the letter ' a ' at Acts 12 v 22

Yes, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was ' WITH ' God....
Only God was BEFORE the beginning according to Psalm 90 v 2
God was WITH No one but Himself before the beginning.
So, the Word was NOT before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
IN the beginning, and BEFORE the beginning, is Not the same.
What did John (1 v 18) say about God but that No man has seen God ->at any time.
What did John (6 v 46 ) say but Not that any man has seen the Father.
What did John (1st John 4 v 12 ] say but No man has seen God ->at any time.
What does Exodus 33 v 20 say but that No man can see God and live.
The LORD (YHWH) Gen. 18 v 1 appeared, but Not a literal appearance as verse 2 mentions three men [ angels ] stood by him. The angels visited Abraham with God's message.

sojourner · Feb 2, 2015

Unification said:
In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God. It was you who coaxed your way around him whom the devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: Man! Because of the death you merited, even the Son of God had to die… Woman, you are the gate to hell. –Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225): On the Apparel of Women, chapter 1

There is one reason. A man with hatred toward women. many other quotes too. Carnal mind doctrine.

This is simply not cogent to the topic.

Unification said:
To put ones faith on a doctrine written by someone who clearly was of the carnal mind as the foundation of your faith which is unexplainable as opposed to trusting in the Lord, and knowing God, I would say is silly. " the Father of Latin Christianity" may be others' foundation and father, but I decline.

1) "Clearly" of "the carnal mind?" First, you haven't established either what constitutes "the carnal mind," nor have you provided any basis of support that those who developed the construct of the Trinity had such a mind.
2) "My" faith? Just what "faith" would that be, do you suppose?
3) What does "Latin Xy" have to do with the concept of the Trinity? It's not a "Latin" construct.

It's more than obvious that you don't know me and you don't know about the origins of Trinitarian thought.

Unification · Feb 2, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
Please note KJV is Not consistent . The same Greek grammar rule applies at Acts 28 v 6 B ...and says that he (Paul ) was ' a ' god. Yet KJV omits the ' a ' at John 1 v 1. Plus KJV adds the letter ' a ' at Acts 12 v 22

Yes, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was ' WITH ' God....
Only God was BEFORE the beginning according to Psalm 90 v 2
God was WITH No one but Himself before the beginning.
So, the Word was NOT before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
IN the beginning, and BEFORE the beginning, is Not the same.
What did John (1 v 18) say about God but that No man has seen God ->at any time.
What did John (6 v 46 ) say but Not that any man has seen the Father.
What did John (1st John 4 v 12 ] say but No man has seen God ->at any time.
What does Exodus 33 v 20 say but that No man can see God and live.
The LORD (YHWH) Gen. 18 v 1 appeared, but Not a literal appearance as verse 2 mentions three men [ angels ] stood by him. The angels visited Abraham with God's message.

I'd like to receive your thoughts on this scripture:

Proverbs 8:22-31King James Version (KJV)
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

sojourner · Feb 2, 2015

Unification said:
There are many, glowing holes in this doctrine, written by a man.

"Written by a man?" First, all doctrine is written by people. Second, the doctrine wasn't the product of one individual.

Unification said:
Folks are just naive and jump in with the crowd, and are reluctant to search out a matter in the Lord, because they don't know just how close He is to us and don't know how to because they are in confusion as to what they are really worshipping.

This is also not cogent to the topic. I've studied the doctrine, and I find it sound. I'm not "naive"; I'm fairly well-versed in matters of theology, and have been invited to write a scholastic paper on theology. I simply don't know what you're on about here, except, perhaps, that you have some sort of bone to pick with the RCC.

Unification · Feb 2, 2015

sojourner said:
This is simply not cogent to the topic.

1) "Clearly" of "the carnal mind?" First, you haven't established either what constitutes "the carnal mind," nor have you provided any basis of support that those who developed the construct of the Trinity had such a mind.
2) "My" faith? Just what "faith" would that be, do you suppose?
3) What does "Latin Xy" have to do with the concept of the Trinity? It's not a "Latin" construct.

It's more than obvious that you don't know me and you don't know about the origins of Trinitarian thought.

sojourner said:
"Written by a man?" First, all doctrine is written by people. Second, the doctrine wasn't the product of one individual.

This is also not cogent to the topic. I've studied the doctrine, and I find it sound. I'm not "naive"; I'm fairly well-versed in matters of theology, and have been invited to write a scholastic paper on theology. I simply don't know what you're on about here, except, perhaps, that you have some sort of bone to pick with the RCC.

We will disagree and that is fine. I used to be into theological doctrine too until I was called out of that. Now any doctrine or concepts of God are silliness to me. I love knowing and experiencing God in truth and spirit. School and education for God are silly to me. Western paradigm. I have no doubt that you are well versed in theology and you'll do well on your scholastic paper, and many blessings to you as you grow.

sojourner · Feb 2, 2015

Unification said:
Now any doctrine or concepts of God are silliness to me. I love knowing and experiencing God in truth and spirit.

Huh. Even what you "know" and "experience" of God are constructs that the limited human mind can understand.

Unification said:
School and education for God are silly to me.

You're dismissing a vital part of the human equation where knowing God is concerned.

Unification said:
Western paradigm.

"Western" is the other half of "Eastern." Both are needed to provide balance.

Unification said:
I have no doubt that you are well versed in theology and you'll do well on your scholastic paper, and many blessings to you as you grow.

Oh I wish that last statement hadn't been so patronizing. "Continue in your journey" is so much more mutual and collegial. If you could only see that linear progress is immaterial to the process of spiritual formation...

katiemygirl · Feb 3, 2015

sojourner said:
Finally!

And we shall stick to the topic!

JM2C · Feb 3, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
Please note KJV is Not consistent . The same Greek grammar rule applies at Acts 28 v 6 B ...and says that he (Paul ) was ' a ' god. Yet KJV omits the ' a ' at John 1 v 1. Plus KJV adds the letter ' a ' at Acts 12 v 22

John 1:1 “ho logos” “the Word” with definite article is said 3 times in verse1. KJV did not omit the “a” because there was no “a” to exclude. They thought Herod and Paul was god.

URAVIP2ME said:
Yes, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was ' WITH ' God....

Please don’t omit these words, ”and the Word was God”

JM2C · Feb 3, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
Only God was BEFORE the beginning according to Psalm 90 v 2

God was WITH No one but Himself before the beginning.

Exactly!

That is why the Lord Jesus Christ, before He became flesh in V14, is God, and not a created “a god”, because there was no created beings or things before the beginning.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and earth –Gen 1:1”. As God was creating the heavens and the earth, the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, was with God already because it says in John 1:3 “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.”

IOW, the ONLY reason why God created the heavens and earth is because of the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, because it says, “Without Him nothing was made that has been made –John 1:3”. God could not have created the heavens and the earth if “The Word” was not with God before the beginning, because The Word was the cause of the creation according to John 1:3.

If you say the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, was not with God before the beginning then John 1:3 would not make any sense at all because the Lord Jesus was the cause of the beginning in Genesis 1:1.

JM2C · Feb 3, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
So, the Word was NOT before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

There cannot be a time gap between the before and after the beginning. If you are implying that God created the Lord Jesus before the beginning in Genesis 1:1 then the beginning of God’s creation did not really started in Genesis 1:1 but sometime before that, but we have no evidence of that in the scriptures.

And why would God create an “a god” before the beginning and later on in Exodus 20:3 it says “you shall have no OTHER/HETEROS/DIFFERENT gods before me.” It does not make any sense at all, does it?

URAVIP2ME said:
IN the beginning, and BEFORE the beginning, is Not the same.

Exactly! But there was no time gap in between the beginning and before the beginning to create an “a god”, is it?

cataway · Feb 3, 2015

JM2C said:
There cannot be a time gap between the before and after the beginning.

why ?

katiemygirl · Feb 3, 2015

Paul said the Messiah was God.

Romans 9
1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2. I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4. the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Luke said Jesus was God. He said THEOS bought the ekklesian with His own blood.

Acts 20:28
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

NOTICE: The NWT inserted the word SON into Acts 20:28, yet the word SON does not appear in a single ancient Greek text.

cataway · Feb 3, 2015

katiemygirl said:
Paul said the Messiah was God.

Romans 9
1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2. I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4. the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Luke said Jesus was God. He said THEOS bought the ekklesian with His own blood.

Acts 20:28
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

NOTICE: The NWT inserted the word SON into Acts 20:28, yet the word SON does not appear in a single ancient Greek text.

you are grasping at straws

URAVIP2ME · Feb 3, 2015

JM2C said:
There cannot be a time gap between the before and after the beginning. If you are implying that God created the Lord Jesus before the beginning in Genesis 1:1 then the beginning of God’s creation did not really started in Genesis 1:1 but sometime before that, but we have no evidence of that in the scriptures.
And why would God create an “a god” before the beginning and later on in Exodus 20:3 it says “you shall have no OTHER/HETEROS/DIFFERENT gods before me.” It does not make any sense at all, does it?
Exactly! But there was no time gap in between the beginning and before the beginning to create an “a god”, is it?

No, Not ' between ' and ' before', but ' everlasting/ No beginning ', and ' in' the beginning.
There really does Not have to be a time gap of any measurable time in "BEFORE" [ Psalm 90:2 from everlasting ] the beginning, and "IN" the beginning.

First, God created His only-begotten heavenly Son who then is the ' us ' of Genesis 1:26
Remember God as Creator had No beginning - Psalm 90:2 - whereas Jesus was in the beginning - Rev. 1:5; 3:14 - so Jesus was Not before the beginning ( of creation )as God was before anything.

Not quite sure what you are referring about ' a god ' because in general the words God/god are just a title. The personal God of the Hebrews was identified by the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) Exodus 6:3; 20:7
Moses was titled as ' a god ' to Aaron according to Exodus 4:16,
and at Exodus 7:1 that Moses was ' a god ' to Pharaoh .
Perhaps you might want to also note Philippians 3:19 ' their god is their belly '.

katiemygirl · Feb 3, 2015

cataway said:
you are grasping at straws

It says what is says. Accept or reject. Everyone makes a choice.

And I suppose you would say the same about Acts 20:28.

Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

How many verses must you explain away?

katiemygirl · Feb 3, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
No, Not ' between ' and ' before', but ' everlasting/ No beginning ', and ' in' the beginning.
There really does Not have to be a time gap of any measurable time in "BEFORE" [ Psalm 90:2 from everlasting ] the beginning, and "IN" the beginning.

First, God created His only-begotten heavenly Son who then is the ' us ' of Genesis 1:26
Remember God as Creator had No beginning - Psalm 90:2 - whereas Jesus was in the beginning - Rev. 1:5; 3:14 - so Jesus was Not before the beginning ( of creation )as God was before anything.

Not quite sure what you are referring about ' a god ' because in general the words God/god are just a title. The personal God of the Hebrews was identified by the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) Exodus 6:3; 20:7
Moses was titled as ' a god ' to Aaron according to Exodus 4:16,
and at Exodus 7:1 that Moses was ' a god ' to Pharaoh .
Perhaps you might want to also note Philippians 3:19 ' their god is their belly '.

In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with Theon and Theos was the Logos.

Doesn't get any plainer.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 3, 2015

JM2C said:
Exactly!
That is why the Lord Jesus Christ, before He became flesh in V14, is God, and not a created “a god”, because there was no created beings or things before the beginning.
“In the beginning God created the heavens and earth –Gen 1:1”. As God was creating the heavens and the earth, the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, was with God already because it says in John 1:3 “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.”
IOW, the ONLY reason why God created the heavens and earth is because of the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, because it says, “Without Him nothing was made that has been made –John 1:3”. God could not have created the heavens and the earth if “The Word” was not with God before the beginning, because The Word was the cause of the creation according to John 1:3.
If you say the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, was not with God before the beginning then John 1:3 would not make any sense at all because the Lord Jesus was the cause of the beginning in Genesis 1:1.

Absolutely right, nothing ( in heaven or on earth ) was made without Jesus - Col. 1:14,15,16.
Jesus had a pre-human life in the heavens - Proverbs 8 vs 22-31 - before God sent His Son, the heavenly Jesus, to earth.

There is No Scripture saying Jesus was ' with ' God ' before ' the beginning, but rather Jesus was ' in' the beginning ' with ' God - Rev. 3:14

John was clear at John 1:18 that No man has seen God at any time. People saw Jesus.
John was clear at 1st John 4:12 that No man has seen God at any time.
Exodus 33:20 is clear that No man can see God and live. People saw Jesus and lived.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 3, 2015

katiemygirl said:
In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with Theon and Theos was the Logos.
Doesn't get any plainer.

Yes, very plain. Jesus was ' IN ' the beginning. No Scripture says ' BEFORE ' the beginning.
God at first was with No one according to Psalm 90 v 2 being from everlasting.
Then , ' in the beginning ' was Jesus - Revelation 1:5; 3:14
Genesis 1:1 does Not say ' before the beginning ' God created the heavens and the earth.

katiemygirl · Feb 3, 2015

"URAVIP2ME, post: 4152145, member: 19507"]
John was clear at John 1:18 that No man has seen God at any time. People saw Jesus.
John was clear at 1st John 4:12 that No man has seen God at any time.
Exodus 33:20 is clear that No man can see God and live. People saw Jesus and lived.

That is a very weak argument. Obviously, God had appeared in the form of a man before Jesus came. There is more to John 1:18 than meets the eye. My own opinion is that no man sees God in all of His glory and lives. I think there are Scriptures to support that view. Regardless, there is no denying that God appeared in the form of a man to Abraham, Joshua.

Gen. 18:1. YHWH appeared to Abraham. He came in the form of a man.

Ex. 33:11. YHWH spoke to Moses face to face.

Josh. 5:13 Joshua saw the face of God.

Where are you coming up with a beginning before the beginning?

Gen 1:1 clearly says, In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth. We're told Jesus created everything. Col. 1:16, John 1:3, Heb 1:1-2, 8-10

Jesus Christ is God. He made the heavens and the earth. This can mean only one thing. God is Jesus and Jesus is God who made everything!

URAVIP2ME · Feb 3, 2015

Unification said:
I'd like to receive your thoughts on this scripture:
Proverbs 8:22-31King James Version (KJV)
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

God produced me ( Jesus ) ' in the beginning ' [ Not before the beginning or start ]
(23) set up from everlasting [ set up but not there yet ] from the beginning [ Not before ]
(27) When He [ God ] prepared the heavens [ prepared not yet created ]
(30) I (Jesus) was by him....... before Him [ or in front of God ]
(31) My (Jesus') delight were with the sons of men.

God is Not called the Word. Like Aaron was spokesman [ mouth ] for Moses - Ex. 4:16, then Jesus as God's Word was God's spokesman by what Jesus said at John 7:16,17; John 12:50; 18:37, and the heavenly resurrected Jesus back in heaven still has that title as the Word of God according to Revelation 19:13.

What are the names at Proverbs 30:4 ?

Can someone explain the Trinity please...

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