• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Did the true church ever vanish or completely fall away?

The the CHristian church ever Fall away completely

  • Yes it fell away until the reformation

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
ALL Mormors are in the classification of the Greeks and Romans along with every other contemporary church. Jesus Christ isn't head of any of 'em.
The evidence doesn't support your statement.

Joseph Smith saw Jesus at least three times. On two of those occasions this meeting was witnessed by others as well. None of them ever denied what they had seen, despite severe persecution.
The signs, wonders, and miracles associated with the reestablishment of the Lord's church were witnessed by members and skeptics as well.
I personally have felt the spirit of the Holy Ghost, and it has testified to me that the LDS church is true. I have seen many miracles in the performance of God's work. I have seen people repent of their sins and come unto Christ, and covenant to keep his commandments, because of the missionary work of the LDS church. I have seen people healed of incurable disease. I myself was once given two years to live, with no hope of a cure. I then received a special blessing from a modern day apostle of God. My symptoms disappeared, and subsequent tests found a healthy heart. That was 15 years ago. The LDS church is the real deal, and it has genuine authority from God. I know this for myself. I have taught in front of large audiences, without needing notes, without any preparation, as the spirit of God has taught me word for word what to say in that very hour. I know for myself that the LDS church has the spirit of the Holy Ghost. It is the real deal, all the way.
 

Theodore A. Jones

Active Member
Mp
How would you define the "true church"?[/QUOT
The evidence doesn't support your statement.

Joseph Smith saw Jesus at least three times. On two of those occasions this meeting was witnessed by others as well. None of them ever denied what they had seen, despite severe persecution.
The signs, wonders, and miracles associated with the reestablishment of the Lord's church were witnessed by members and skeptics as well.
I personally have felt the spirit of the Holy Ghost, and it has testified to me that the LDS church is true. I have seen many miracles in the performance of God's work. I have seen people repent of their sins and come unto Christ, and covenant to keep his commandments, because of the missionary work of the LDS church. I have seen people healed of incurable disease. I myself was once given two years to live, with no hope of a cure. I then received a special blessing from a modern day apostle of God. My symptoms disappeared, and subsequent tests found a healthy heart. That was 15 years ago. The LDS church is the real deal, and it has genuine authority from God. I know this for myself. I have taught in front of large audiences, without needing notes, without any preparation, as the spirit of God has taught me word for word what to say in that very hour. I know for myself that the LDS church has the spirit of the Holy Ghost. It is the real deal, all the way.
Yeah. Right! At this time and at that time Jesus Christ is serving as the high priest of his God. Under rule he is not allowed to leave the sanctuary until his time of service is completed. J. Smith might have seen something, but it wasn't Jesus Christ by any stretch.
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
Did the church completely fall away? If you define a church as a group of people who keep traditions alive, then no. But if you define the church of Christ as a religious school, governed with apostolic authority, then yes. Virtually all the apostles were murdered.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Did the church completely fall away? If you define a church as a group of people who keep traditions alive, then no. But if you define the church of Christ as a religious school, governed with apostolic authority, then yes. Virtually all the apostles were murdered.

Ross, when one gauges/compares "completeness" with James 1:10 any
"falling away" is total. GOD doesn't accept "most compliance" as being in full compliance.

There wasn't a "little sin" with Adam and Eve. Disobedience was "Disobedience."
Jesus showed this in Rev.2:4. "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love".
No! There has been a "remnant" which has resisted being a part of that group. However, that separation after the Resurrection was predicted by Daniel(7:25) and Paul acknowledged the Fact in 2Thess.2:3-4 and Acts 20:28-31, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
"

That ecclesiastical power would persecute the people of GOD for 1260 years. and in Rev.13:3, its "deadly wound would be healed" and the former persecuting power would again be manifested.("And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.")
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
"
I agree completely. The church of Christ ceased to exist when it was no longer run by apostolic authority. Heresies were indistinguishable from the truth, and no one with authority was left to stem the tide of false ideas.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
sincerly said:
Acts 20:"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."

I agree completely. The church of Christ ceased to exist when it was no longer run by apostolic authority. Heresies were indistinguishable from the truth, and no one with authority was left to stem the tide of false ideas.

Ross, There have been believers in all ages since the "world was turned "upside down" by those who went on those missionary journeys. True they were persecuted for their Faith/ spreading the "Good news of Salvation." However, that only spurred them on the greater. The Remnant held fast and abided in the Truths they had. Teaching and staying ahead of their tormentors as best they could.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Granted, but that doesn't answer the question at all. I never accused Christ of not teaching people. The point is that the Christian Mysteries were lost.
I think you're making a bigger deal about the mysteries than is warranted. Splintering groups often elevate an area of scripture above all else and that's what distinguishes them. Pentecostals elevate baptism with the Holy Spirit and tongues, I heard a group recently who is elevating the rights of Christians as their MO, Jehovah Witnesses elevate The "Real name of God" and the 144,000, Catholics elevate the authority of the Church and "Ave Maria", Messianics elevate the Jewish side of Jesus as the most important, and each position has a scripture to it. Each of these groups look at the other groups and think they should take their special parts of the Bible in proper perspective along with everything else. But each group thinks, "No, but ours REALLY is special!" Similarly, we look at the mysteries of Christ with sobriety and no more or less special than anything else. The mysteries of Christ are some deep knowledge that each disciple can get to know as he draws closer in relationship with Jesus through prayer, Bible study, and application.

Ephesians 3:3-9, 5:31-32, Colossians 1:27 are example where Paul tells people pieces of that mystery, and states elsewhere how God is making known the mystery to His people as a regular thing. Ephesians 1:1, 7-9, Colossians 1:26. Paul did not speak of the mysteries of Christ as something mystical like you're describing. It's not something to build a religion around, but just an integral part of every other teaching.

Other things were lost as well. The doctrine of the deification of mankind is not taught by anyone except the Mormons. Yet it was taught in the ancient Christian church.
Where in the Bible?!

The concept of baptism being a covenant was also lost, inviting the heresy of infant baptism.
I'm not sure what you mean by baptism being a covenant. Baptism in Jesus's name for remission of sins, however, was never lost. It was always in scripture, it was just ignored.

Subordinationism was taught by the early church Fathers. Why is the LDS church the only one to teach it today? There were many things that the gentile Greeks and Romans simply did not understand, or would not believe.
I had to look that up. I don't agree with any special non Biblical term. I do agree that Jesus submitted to the Father Hebrews 5:7, but I also believe they are one John 10:30. I don't use the word Trinity, ever. Even if the Greeks, Romans Asia Minorers, etc. did or would not believe certain things, it was not lost. The scriptures (Bible) were there.

The fact that they had everything they needed does not guarantee that everything they needed was preserved. The knowledge given to the apostles was not public knowledge, and because the apostles were all killed without having passed this information along to ordained successors, it was lost.
Ephesians 3:4, 9. Colossians 1:26-27. They were not lost with the apostles' deaths. They were given to everyone and were also recorded in the Bible 1 Corinthians 15:51, Ephesians 3:3-4.

I'm not saying it was lost all at once, because I'm sure it wasn't. But without any living apostles, there were no real safeguards against false doctrines creeping in and true doctrines being either lost or modified over time.
The Holy Spirit remained and so did God's word. The writings and mysteries are still with us. The mysteries and knowledge of Christ did not depend on the apostles staying alive.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Where in the Bible?!
Through Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations. No, those verses don't explicitly say we'll be "gods," but when taken as a whole, they do pretty much describe what the Latter-day Saints (as well as a number of early Christian fathers) teach. C.S. Lewis apparently also understood the doctrine of eternal progression almost exactly as we do. He said:

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Ross may respond to your other questions before I get a chance, because I've got to sign off for awhile. I would like to comment on them myself, though.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Through Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations. No, those verses don't explicitly say we'll be "gods," but when taken as a whole, they do pretty much describe what the Latter-day Saints (as well as a number of early Christian fathers) teach. C.S. Lewis apparently also understood the doctrine of eternal progression almost exactly as we do. He said:

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Ross may respond to your other questions before I get a chance, because I've got to sign off for awhile. I would like to comment on them myself, though.
Romans 8:16-17, - I remember that asked two different mormons at two different times on the train about this verse. An inheriter receives whatever the giver decides to give them, it's not automatic that they receive absolutely everything the inheritor has. I asked these two mormons where they get the rest of the idea that they receive everything that God has, including his powers. Romans 8:17 doesn't say that never heard from them again, & I was nice to both of them, not aggressive. I hope this question doesn't scare you off too.

2 Peter 1:4 - Very vague. The only elaboration it gives is
2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

He gives us the power to live a Godly life, such as described in
2 Corinthians 10:4-5 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. [5] We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

2 Timothy 1:7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

This verse makes no mention of us becoming like God.

Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 - These verses describe authorities God "gives" to those who overcome. God's still God. It speaks nothing of transformation or becoming God.
 
Last edited:

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
The evidence doesn't support your statement.

Joseph Smith saw Jesus at least three times. On two of those occasions this meeting was witnessed by others as well. None of them ever denied what they had seen, despite severe persecution.
The signs, wonders, and miracles associated with the reestablishment of the Lord's church were witnessed by members and skeptics as well.
I personally have felt the spirit of the Holy Ghost, and it has testified to me that the LDS church is true. I have seen many miracles in the performance of God's work. I have seen people repent of their sins and come unto Christ, and covenant to keep his commandments, because of the missionary work of the LDS church. I have seen people healed of incurable disease. I myself was once given two years to live, with no hope of a cure. I then received a special blessing from a modern day apostle of God. My symptoms disappeared, and subsequent tests found a healthy heart. That was 15 years ago. The LDS church is the real deal, and it has genuine authority from God. I know this for myself. I have taught in front of large audiences, without needing notes, without any preparation, as the spirit of God has taught me word for word what to say in that very hour. I know for myself that the LDS church has the spirit of the Holy Ghost. It is the real deal, all the way.
Just curious since I don't know. Is it recorded that Joseph Smith repented or showed remorse for his acts of divination in looking for gold?
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
I think you're making a bigger deal about the mysteries than is warranted.
The apostasy was so complete, that you clearly have no idea what I am even talking about. Protestant Christianity is just as ignorant as Catholic Christianity when it comes to the mysteries. They were never put in the Bible, because they were deemed to sacred for inclusion. Jesus taught the apostles a series of rites after his resurrection, rites which are not mentioned nor described in the Bible. One such rite, is the rite of the Bridal Chamber. It is mentioned in our oldest extent Christian literature, the Nag Hammadi Library, but it is not being practiced in any church today save the LDS church.

There is another ordinance, which could hardly be classified as a mystery, and which is mentioned in the Bible - that is only practiced by the Mormons. It is called the healing of the sick. It is performed by the Elders of the church, through the laying on of hands; the Elders pray over the person, and anoint them with oil. (James 5:14) An apostle of God did this to me, and healed me of an incurable disease, after I was given two years to live by the medical profession. It is a simple and beautiful demonstration of true priesthood power, but it has been replaced with a lot of pagan nonsense - relics that could heal, graven images, beads with mystical powers. From that poisoned well, sprang most of the churches of today.

As far as the deification of mankind, as Katzpur has so graciously provided, it can be found in Revelations 3:21. The throne is the symbol of the power and authority of God, and to share it is certainly to become a god. Any other interpretation would diminish this verse substantially. It was also taught by the most prolific Christian writers of the first few centuries, before it fell out of fashion. You see once doctrines are established by common vote, they change like fashions, according to the whim of the clerics and bishops. Here are some quotes concerning deification from some of the Fathers of the Christian faith:

"The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. . . . Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life."
(Athanasius, Against the Arians, 1.39, 3.39. )

"But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12]. If then we have been made sons of god, we have also been made gods."
(Augustine, On the Psalms, 50:2).

"yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god."
(Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1).

I'm not sure what you mean by baptism being a covenant.

Of course. Apparently you didn't understand when I said the knowledge was lost. Originally, baptism was the demonstration of a covenant, where the initiate repents of all his sins and covenants with God to keep his commandments. In return, God grants the forgiveness of sins. The initiate becomes an Israelite, adopted in to the lineage of Abraham, through which the entire world will be blessed. The Temple of Solomon had something like 40 baptismal fonts, the grandest of which stood on the backs of twelve oxen, which represented the twelve tribes of Israel.

I do agree that Jesus submitted to the Father Hebrews 5:7
Yes, he did in many places. Yet the Catholic creed of the Trinity denies any such relationship, putting them as equals. This is the only Catholic creed that was adopted by the Protestant Reformation.

Ephesians 3:4, 9. Colossians 1:26-27
These mention the mystery of Christ, but I don't believe they are referring to the Christian Mysteries.

The Holy Spirit remained and so did God's word. The writings and mysteries are still with us. The mysteries and knowledge of Christ did not depend on the apostles staying alive.
The Holy Spirit didn't remain. By the time Joseph Smith was born, not one church claimed to have it. The miracles and signs also disappeared, as the world slipped into a long dark night. The early church was very concerned over the loss of the miracles. Tertullian, who lived in the 2nd century, taught that the apostles could do all the same miracles that Christ did. He also wrote that the spirit of the Holy Ghost, and the miracles survived the death of the apostles, but this didn't last long. By Origen's day, there were only "traces" of these supernatural gifts. With rare exception, by the 3rd century AD, there were no mentions of miracles, speaking in tongues, prophecy, revelation, or any gifts of the Spirit. According to the historian Paul Johnson, who wrote The History of Christianity, the Christian world acknowledged that the age of miracles was over.
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
Just curious since I don't know. Is it recorded that Joseph Smith repented or showed remorse for his acts of divination in looking for gold?

I don't know that we have any records of that. The accusation itself isn't well supported. In the History of the Church, Joseph states that he tried to talk Josiah Stowell out of searching for gold, and eventually succeeded. Later on, when Josiah Stowell converted to Mormonism, his sons were quite dismayed, and brought charges against Joseph Smith for "glass looking". There was a hearing before a judge to determine if there was sufficient cause to go to trial. Witness after witness testified that Joseph Smith really could see things. Even Josiah Stowell, the supposed victim, claimed that Joseph demonstrated his ability by describing in detail Josiah's home, including the white hand painted on a nearby tree. The case was dismissed.

We do know that when Joseph first pulled the Book of Mormon from the ground, that he thought about selling the gold for profit. He was reprimanded and forced to wait several more years, before the Lord again entrusted him with the record.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
I don't know that we have any records of that. The accusation itself isn't well supported. In the History of the Church, Joseph states that he tried to talk Josiah Stowell out of searching for gold, and eventually succeeded. Later on, when Josiah Stowell converted to Mormonism, his sons were quite dismayed, and brought charges against Joseph Smith for "glass looking". There was a hearing before a judge to determine if there was sufficient cause to go to trial. Witness after witness testified that Joseph Smith really could see things. Even Josiah Stowell, the supposed victim, claimed that Joseph demonstrated his ability by describing in detail Josiah's home, including the white hand painted on a nearby tree. The case was dismissed.

We do know that when Joseph first pulled the Book of Mormon from the ground, that he thought about selling the gold for profit. He was reprimanded and forced to wait several more years, before the Lord again entrusted him with the record.
I had heard that Joseph was interested in Josiah's daughter and was hired by Josiah to look for gold using seer stones. Once they looked for long enough and never found gold, they threw in the towel.
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
An inheriter receives whatever the giver decides to give them, it's not automatic that they receive absolutely everything the inheritor has.
I believe the verse in question is Revelations 21:7
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
This is a KJV translation, and other translations don't seem to agree. This was reiterated in a revelation to Joseph Smith where the Lord told him "And he that is a faithful and wise steward shall inherit all things." (Doctrine and Covenants 78:22)

Augustine also taught this:
"But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12]. If then we have been made sons of god, we have also been made gods."
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
There have been believers in all ages since the "world was turned "upside down" by those who went on those missionary journeys.
I fail to see the relevance. It doesn't matter that they called themselves Christians. The priesthood authority was gone. The correct concept of God was gone. Testimony was replaced with rhetoric and lay ministers were replaced with paid ministers. The knowledge of covenants was gone. The knowledge of baptism was all but gone. The higher ordinances of the gospel were lost. Revelation was replaced with committee vote. The miracles and other gifts of the spirit were gone. The worship of Mary and the apostles replaced the worship of God. You can call them "believers", but what did they believe? Heresies.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
I believe the verse in question is Revelations 21:7
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
This is a KJV translation, and other translations don't seem to agree. This was reiterated in a revelation to Joseph Smith where the Lord told him "And he that is a faithful and wise steward shall inherit all things." (Doctrine and Covenants 78:22)

Augustine also taught this:
"But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12]. If then we have been made sons of god, we have also been made gods."
Inherit
κληρονομέω,v \{klay-ron-om-eh'-o}
1) to receive a lot, receive by lot 1a) esp. to receive a part of an inheritance, receive as an inheritance, obtain by right of inheritance 1b) to be an heir, to inherit 2) to receive the portion assigned to one, receive an allotted portion, receive as one's own or as a possession 3) to become partaker of, to obtain


All
τος,rd \{hoo'-tos}
1) this, these, etc.


The versions who translate it as "all these things" (listed in previous verses) are correct.

Who made the leap saying if we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods? Do you know anyone who can walk on water on their own, without God's help, because they are now a god themself? Even if you're saying, they will receive godlike status later, it still doesn't make any sense.
Revelation 21:7 finishes off saying
...and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

Is God a god to another god?
 
Last edited:

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Romans 8:16-17, - I remember that asked two different mormons at two different times on the train about this verse. An inheriter receives whatever the giver decides to give them, it's not automatic that they receive absolutely everything the inheritor has. I asked these two mormons where they get the rest of the idea that they receive everything that God has, including his powers. Romans 8:17 doesn't say that never heard from them again, & I was nice to both of them, not aggressive. I hope this question doesn't scare you off too.

2 Peter 1:4 - Very vague. The only elaboration it gives is
2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

He gives us the power to live a Godly life, such as described in
2 Corinthians 10:4-5 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. [5] We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

2 Timothy 1:7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

This verse makes no mention of us becoming like God.

Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 - These verses describe authorities God "gives" to those who overcome. God's still God. It speaks nothing of transformation or becoming God.
Well, to me, if God gives you everything He has, then you have all of the attributes of deity. To me, that makes you a god. It doesn't, however, and can't make you God.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Take into account the parable of the seed sower, states that the wheat and tares were planted at the same time; not sure how people expected the church to be maintained, in a world like this.

Some could argue, that the church was maintained and created by Pauline pharisee doctrine; yet find the Ebionites to be more in keeping, with following Yeshua's teachings. :innocent:
 
Top