Does Christmas have anything to do with Christ?

savagewind · Dec 28, 2014

Don't make any sense to them for goodness sakes! They haven't been told to listen to reason.

savagewind · Dec 28, 2014

That is a real question. If God's loyalty stops when a person's loyalty stops how is it loyalty? It isn't.

Sonofason · Dec 28, 2014

rrosskopf said:
That would be more persuasive if Hebrew had colons.

I've already determined that I was wrong. Crosses, nativity scenes, little ducks in the back yard, little plastic vegetables on the kitchen table display, they're idols, all of them.

rrosskopf · Dec 28, 2014

MikeSavage said:
The law covenant ended when Christ was murdered. No law pertains.

I suppose that is a common view among Christians, but it is usually used as an excuse to ignore the laws of God and to ignore the Old Testament. There are some big problems with this worldview. Jesus himself taught people to keep the ten commandments, expounded on which were the greatest commandments, and even gave new commandments. Are you saying that all of his words became null and void when he died? I believe you are shooting beyond the mark.

MikeSavage said:
In order to be in and stay in God's love, one must adhere to His principles and commands. One must do the entire will of God.

I thought you said "no law pertains"? Aren't commandments laws?

MikeSavage said:
Judaism, another false religion, totally disregards the Christian Greek scriptures (new testament) and therefore are not in God's love.

That's harsh. God still loves them and will reconcile with them in the latter days. Their sin is no worse than that of most Christian churches - they reject living prophets. It takes great faith to follow a living prophet.

MikeSavage said:
It doesn't matter if a rule is a felony or misdemeanor, the effect is the same. Displeasing God the Almighty. Doing so means judgement of destruction in the final battle.

Am I the first to mention that God is a bit of a softy? Unless people are openly rebelling against him, he isn't anxious to call down judgement upon anyone. He stretches out his arm, in long suffering and mercy.

MikeSavage said:
Jesus taught us the "one true faith" as told in the scriptures.

Well, parts of it can be found there. Records weren't kept of everything that Jesus taught and did.

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
- John 21:25

rrosskopf · Dec 28, 2014

Sonofason said:
I've already determined that I was wrong. Crosses, nativity scenes, little ducks in the back yard, little plastic vegetables on the kitchen table display, they're idols, all of them.

Why, are you a Jew? If you aren't a Jew, I don't believe it really applies to you... personally, God has made a different covenant with me, and he hasn't chastised me on my artwork, photography, or wood carving. If he does, I will repent. Have you entered into any kind of covenant with God?

Sonofason · Dec 28, 2014

rrosskopf said:
Why, are you a Jew? If you aren't a Jew, I don't believe it really applies to you... personally, God has made a different covenant with me, and he hasn't chastised me on my artwork, photography, or wood carving. If he does, I will repent. Have you entered into any kind of covenant with God?

If there is something that God finds offensive, I'd rather not be a partaker in it. Why would God find it offensive for a Jew to have idols, but not offensive for me to have idols?

rrosskopf · Dec 28, 2014

Sonofason said:
If there is something that God finds offensive, I'd rather not be a partaker in it. Why would God find it offensive for a Jew to have idols, but not offensive for me to have idols?

That is a very good question. Ultimately, God is engaged in the work of bringing to pass the eternal life and immortality of mankind. Rules train us, but they aren't the end result. Some people have more faith than others and don't need as many rules to share the same attitudes as God. The Jews were stiffnecked and slow to righteousness, but quick to follow false gods. God tailored a program to address these issues. He made a covenant with them, promising to bless them, if they would keep his commandments. He was trying to train them, so that one day they would be worthy to enter into his presence. When asked what the greatest commandment was, Jesus said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength". What most Christians don't know, is that this very law was written on the phylacteries that Jews wore in front of their eyes, as proscribed by the law. It wasn't anything new or original. The Lord was still trying to teach them righteousness, but they were slow to learn.
It isn't an idol, if you don't worship it, and I don't believe you worship those things that you mentioned. I don't even believe you have ever been tempted to worship them. You have more faith than the Israelites who followed Moses, in this area. I don't doubt that there are other areas which could use some improvement, but this isn't one of them.

Dirty Penguin · Dec 28, 2014

MikeSavage said:
There is no "my god is bigger than your god" view. There is but one God. No others are real. No religion is anything but false. I am no part of any religion and yet, I know the One True God, God the Almighty. There is but one and He created EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING. Simply because you don't adhere to or believe that, doesn't change the fact that there is One God the Almighty, Jehovah.

You are 100% correct (in your belief)....

He said that ALL religions are false, originate with Satan, and are works of the flesh.

That is....if you believe such a thing....and since you believe it that's all that matters.

That is why He said that they will ALL be totally wiped from the surface of the Earth in the final battle, which is, by all scriptural accounts, any time now.

I have no doubt that's what it says in your book.

All religions, governments, and opposers of God the Almighty are to be eliminated from Earth permanently. No changing that, and no refuting it.

Again....if that's what it says in your book and you believe it then I have no challenge.

Disbelieving it won't change it either. You may as well worship a rock or a piece of cow dung for all the good they will do you.

I disbelieve the claims you and your holy book make but if you believe them yourself then that's all that matters.

Same effect as worshiping a so called god of yours that isn't the one true God.

I have no gods. I don't believe in them.....including yours.....but if you believe in your god and his power and his words and his scripture then who am I to challenge that.

Dirty Penguin · Dec 28, 2014

Mestemia said:
Rather difficult to worship something you have no idea even exists.

Then go an tell some Christians, Muslims and Jews that because they've seem to have been doing it for thousands of years now. So you can in fact worship something you have no idea actually exist. Millions upon millions do.

So when someone celebrates their kids birthday are you claiming they are celebrating every thing else that ever happened on that day?

I say no they are not.

Click to expand...

I'd say no as well because in that situation you can at least present actual evidence that one was born on a particular day. But I'm not talking about a day in the context of Christmas.

I'm talking about the historicity of it up to when the biblical Yeshua was linked. One can celebrate the various pagan rituals in Christmas and not know they're performing rituals and observing customs that are based on pagan practices.

Click to expand...

MikeSavage · Dec 29, 2014

rrosskopf said:
I suppose that is a common view among Christians, but it is usually used as an excuse to ignore the laws of God and to ignore the Old Testament. There are some big problems with this worldview. Jesus himself taught people to keep the ten commandments, expounded on which were the greatest commandments, and even gave new commandments. Are you saying that all of his words became null and void when he died? I believe you are shooting beyond the mark.

I thought you said "no law pertains"? Aren't commandments laws?

That's harsh. God still loves them and will reconcile with them in the latter days. Their sin is no worse than that of most Christian churches - they reject living prophets. It takes great faith to follow a living prophet.

Am I the first to mention that God is a bit of a softy? Unless people are openly rebelling against him, he isn't anxious to call down judgement upon anyone. He stretches out his arm, in long suffering and mercy.

Well, parts of it can be found there. Records weren't kept of everything that Jesus taught and did.

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
- John 21:25
The law covenant ended. His subsequent commands were not part of the law covenant (Mosaic Law). Neither were Jesus' commands. It's probably true that you don't know the difference between Christianity and Christendom.

apophenia · Dec 29, 2014

rrosskopf said:
We use Santa Claus to conceal our gift giving. I think giving anonymous gifts is very Christian. I don't have any delusion that Christ was born in December, but I don't think it matters much when we celebrate his birth. Christmas is a wonderful opportunity to teach our children about charity.

True enough.

But we must also teach them that consumerism has resulted in (among other things) swirling masses of plastic the size of Texas in the ocean. All the plastic is killing off marine life. On a grand scale. There are now also untold acres of garbage up to 30 metres high on the ocean floor.

Charity begins at home ... earth is home.

Please, find a way to teach them that. All those presents ... in all that wrapping ... destroying our home.

Sonofason · Dec 29, 2014

rrosskopf said:
That is a very good question. Ultimately, God is engaged in the work of bringing to pass the eternal life and immortality of mankind. Rules train us, but they aren't the end result. Some people have more faith than others and don't need as many rules to share the same attitudes as God. The Jews were stiffnecked and slow to righteousness, but quick to follow false gods. God tailored a program to address these issues. He made a covenant with them, promising to bless them, if they would keep his commandments. He was trying to train them, so that one day they would be worthy to enter into his presence. When asked what the greatest commandment was, Jesus said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength". What most Christians don't know, is that this very law was written on the phylacteries that Jews wore in front of their eyes, as proscribed by the law. It wasn't anything new or original. The Lord was still trying to teach them righteousness, but they were slow to learn.
It isn't an idol, if you don't worship it, and I don't believe you worship those things that you mentioned. I don't even believe you have ever been tempted to worship them. You have more faith than the Israelites who followed Moses, in this area. I don't doubt that there are other areas which could use some improvement, but this isn't one of them.

Well, I certainly appreciate your perspective, and I'm certainly inclined to agree with you. But the problem remains that the words say what they say. Honestly, what indeed is the value of having plastic vegetables on your kitchen table? They cost money that could have certainly been put to better use advancing God's Kingdom. And honestly, if we're celebrating Christ, what is the value of a nativity scene sitting under a Christmas tree. What is the value of any of this stuff. It's a waste of money, which again could be put to much better use.

I should ask my question this way. If you desire to advance the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, do you believe it would be better to have or to not have a nativity scene and a Christmas tree? Which do you think God would favor more, and why?

MikeSavage · Dec 29, 2014

rrosskopf said:
That is a very good question. Ultimately, God is engaged in the work of bringing to pass the eternal life and immortality of mankind. Rules train us, but they aren't the end result. Some people have more faith than others and don't need as many rules to share the same attitudes as God. The Jews were stiffnecked and slow to righteousness, but quick to follow false gods. God tailored a program to address these issues. He made a covenant with them, promising to bless them, if they would keep his commandments. He was trying to train them, so that one day they would be worthy to enter into his presence. When asked what the greatest commandment was, Jesus said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength". What most Christians don't know, is that this very law was written on the phylacteries that Jews wore in front of their eyes, as proscribed by the law. It wasn't anything new or original. The Lord was still trying to teach them righteousness, but they were slow to learn.
It isn't an idol, if you don't worship it, and I don't believe you worship those things that you mentioned. I don't even believe you have ever been tempted to worship them. You have more faith than the Israelites who followed Moses, in this area. I don't doubt that there are other areas which could use some improvement, but this isn't one of them.

Acts 19:19 Indeed, quite a number of those who practiced magical arts brought their books together and burned them up before everybody. And they calculated their value and found them worth 50,000 pieces of silver. 20 Thus in a mighty way, the word of Jehovah kept growing and prevailing.

They didn't worship their books on magical arts either, but they were pagan and they destroyed them so as to not displease God. God said that anything pagan was unclean, whether worshiped or not, it was still unclean. He said in 2nd Corinthians 6:17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

Based on the 2nd Corinthians quotes, we shouldn't touch anything unclean if we want God to take us in. If that doesn't matter to us, then touching anything unclean makes no difference. If we love God and want Him to love us, we must obey Him.

rrosskopf · Dec 30, 2014

MikeSavage said:
They didn't worship their books on magical arts either, but they were pagan and they destroyed them so as to not displease God.

That's quite a different thing. God is jealous, and won't stand for the veneration of pagan religious objects.

rrosskopf · Dec 30, 2014

Sonofason said:
Honestly, what indeed is the value of having plastic vegetables on your kitchen table?

Materialism is vanity to some degree. You are preaching to the choir there.

Sonofason said:
And honestly, if we're celebrating Christ, what is the value of a nativity scene sitting under a Christmas tree.

The nativity scene helps little kids learn about Christ. I don't think the same can be said for a Christmas tree, but if used properly, it can serve as a reminder of the life of Christ and the importance of family. Beauty is also a god-like thing, that can inspire and uplift. It isn't all vanity.

Sonofason said:
If you desire to advance the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, do you believe it would be better to have or to not have a nativity scene and a Christmas tree? Which do you think God would favor more, and why?

I believe that God understands the value of an object lesson. Some people need to see something, in order to believe, in order to understand. It is up to the parents to teach their children righteousness and not vanity.

rrosskopf · Dec 30, 2014

apophenia said:
But we must also teach them that consumerism has resulted in (among other things) swirling masses of plastic the size of Texas in the ocean.

I think our schools are doing a bang up job of terrifying our children, when it comes to the future of mankind. I wouldn't be opposed to an effort to start harvesting plastic from the ocean. I'm not sure if that is realistic. Maybe we should focus on preventing the dumping of plastic into the ocean. The idea of an ocean full of plastic is disgusting to say the least, but I'm not convinced that it has (generally speaking) an adverse effect on plankton, coral, or fish. It is like humanity is yet to be potty trained. We don't know how to be good stewards of this planet upon which we live.

MikeSavage · Dec 30, 2014

rrosskopf said:
That's quite a different thing. God is jealous, and won't stand for the veneration of pagan religious objects.

2 Corinthians 6:17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

He feels the same way about crucifixes, statues of Mary, holy cards, Saint Christopher medals, objects used in pagan traditions or celebrations (Christmas trees) and the like. Anything pagan, originating with pagandom, anything used to contact the dead (Ouija boards, tarot cards, etc.). And of course actually worshiping pagan gods. Matthew 6:24 “No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. You cannot slave for God and for Riches. Jehovah is a jealous God who demands exclusive devotion. It is for that reason, and others, that Jesus taught to be "no part of the world", for the world loves what is it's own. Doing what the world does, just because the world does it, means condemnation. The world is currently Satan's, and he rules it. Soon that will end, and those who are no part of it, and who do God's will, will be saved. Those who don't, will be permanently destroyed.

MikeSavage · Dec 30, 2014

rrosskopf said:
I think our schools are doing a bang up job of terrifying our children, when it comes to the future of mankind. I wouldn't be opposed to an effort to start harvesting plastic from the ocean. I'm not sure if that is realistic. Maybe we should focus on preventing the dumping of plastic into the ocean. The idea of an ocean full of plastic is disgusting to say the least, but I'm not convinced that it has (generally speaking) an adverse effect on plankton, coral, or fish. It is like humanity is yet to be potty trained. We don't know how to be good stewards of this planet upon which we live.

Jehovah will, after the final battle, work to restore the Earth. All that plastic will be cleaned up. Earth will, once again, be paradise, and only the righteous will live on it. He is the ONLY hope for mankind and for the Earth.

savagewind · Dec 30, 2014

MikeSavage said:
2 Corinthians 6:17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

He feels the same way about crucifixes, statues of Mary, holy cards, Saint Christopher medals, objects used in pagan traditions or celebrations (Christmas trees) and the like. Anything pagan, originating with pagandom, anything used to contact the dead (Ouija boards, tarot cards, etc.). And of course actually worshiping pagan gods. Matthew 6:24 “No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. You cannot slave for God and for Riches. Jehovah is a jealous God who demands exclusive devotion. It is for that reason, and others, that Jesus taught to be "no part of the world", for the world loves what is it's own. Doing what the world does, just because the world does it, means condemnation. The world is currently Satan's, and he rules it. Soon that will end, and those who are no part of it, and who do God's will, will be saved. Those who don't, will be permanently destroyed.

No one but the person who feels knows how he feels. Please stop saying you know God's own thoughts and feelings.

savagewind · Dec 30, 2014

MikeSavage said:
Jehovah will, after the final battle, work to restore the Earth. All that plastic will be cleaned up. Earth will, once again, be paradise, and only the righteous will live on it. He is the ONLY hope for mankind and for the Earth.

Jehovah The Spirit and Almighty God "will work". Are you certain of that? Isn't it true Jesus is the one who will LEAD the workers, one of whom isn't Almighty God? Do you have any idea how you sound? People hear you saying God is going to kill everyone who doesn't agree God should work to make Earth a paradise. God's original purpose was for the sons of Adam to make Earth a paradise. Since when has that purpose changed?

Does Christmas have anything to do with Christ?

Does Xmas (Christmas) have anything to do with Christ?

Yes

No

Don't know

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