Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

Sapiens · Nov 30, 2014

disciple said:
Actually it isn't 'redundant'. I think you are using the incorrect word for the point you're trying to make.
This is not a productive 'discussion', I'm going to leave it here.

I'd say "redundant" is a pretty good choice of words, both the American and the British meanings work well.

I love the way you opt out of the discussion every time you get logically stuck. It will be nice when you learn to stop that sort of petulant childish behavior.

Sapiens · Nov 30, 2014

disciple said:
Really bad analogy. Our present 'knowledge' does not allow us to honestly think the 'room' is empty. That's why there is a 'blank'. that's your 'blank'. That's your problem. There is nothing 'wrong' with ID belief, it makes sense.

No, it is an almost perfect analogy, you are desperate for there to be something there, but I can look into the room and see that there is nothing there. So then you have to claim that it is a supernatural gold Rolex that only those who believe in supernatural gold Rolexs can see, yet when I ask you to demonstrate it's existence, you can't even give me indirect evidence such as telling me the correct time. The extended analogy works even better ... thanks.

Sapiens · Nov 30, 2014

Robert.Evans said:
That is not ignorance, that is reality. You think as the world.

Yes it is, think about it for a minute and then tell us two things: 1) if it is not ignorance, what knowledge is demonstrably there? 2) How do you break out of the problem of circular reasoning?

Robert.Evans · Nov 30, 2014

NulliuSINverba said:
You're clearly unable to see that "I don't know" in no way equates to "God didn't do it."

Meanwhile, based on zero evidence, you've concluded that everything was created by a supernatural entity?

You cannot know. You can only pretend to know.

Please explain how "I don't know" can be a wrong answer.

Please provide a more open-minded response to the unknown than "I Don't Know."

That's an empty assertion.

You're hung up with your need to personify the universe. Clearly.

Please explain how your belief that a supernatural being created everything differs from luck and magic.

If you truly ''don't know'' then why are you arguing? sounds like you know to me. If I said I did not know, and truly wished to know something, I would shut up and listen. So I find your comments wanting.
It is you who have zero evidence for your blind faith.... we have the proof of the inner witness making us a living witness testfying to all things. We see then what is without which you do not... so you are mistaken my friend.
''supernatural is a poor word to use.... it suggests that there is a difference or separation, which, though in some ways there is, there is not as far as this argument is concerned.
God has intelligence. He does not need luck; intelligence evolves, yours mine his. That brings about and is everything. That IS a good answer. Your luck and magic is not, nor the bag on your head (with the attached argument)

It seems readily apparent that you do believe in luck and magic. Do you believe that God might have opted to not create the universe? If you believe that God might have decided to not create the universe, then aren't we lucky that he decided to create everything? And if you believe that God pulled the universe out of his hat, you'll need to differentiate between that belief in creation ex nihilo and magic.

It is not that simple. We are here, as a universe, because we were cast out as unclean. It has little to do with luck. Intelligence is involved. I think that is a concept you do not like going off all your other comments

You've supposed a lot in that statement alone.

Don't fret over my memory. You've got bigger fish to fry.

haha fine, I could say you have

"God dunnit" is a very unsatisfying answer. It's the equivalent of blaming every murder that was ever committed on The Butler.

You've arrived at a crime scene and pinned the murder on the butler. Never mind that you've yet to review the evidence or even establish that there's a butler employed at the residence in question.

It is better than ''Naturaldidit'' or ignoring the evidence and carrying on regardless with a bag on your head.

Resorting to verbiage like that is a clear indicator that you have nothing of substance to bring to the conversation. Why not just wave a white flag instead?

Are you sure you would know what it meant?

Prove that intelligence drove the creation of the universe. Go for it.

I don't need to 'go' for anything. I already have it... haha.
I love the word ''prove''. God proves not man.
It is proved to me as also a few other billion people..... that you choose to ignore. It is an easy argument for you if you are a materialist. Anything to do with the metaphysical you can ignore. But is that wise? What benefit do you have by doing that, what do you gain? Nothing! What you lost is life, which is a shame. The answer is within, not without. We only see what is without when he what is within. Your spiritual blindness stops you from seeing that, so no amount of looking for some physical explanation will answer it..... I think you know that.

Robert.Evans · Nov 30, 2014

NulliuSINverba said:
Please dispense with the holier-than-thou pose and get busy washing our feet.

haha.... I think that was to believers not heathens

Sapiens · Nov 30, 2014

Robert.Evans said:
Well that might happen when scientists stop feeding us junk like all science is good, and that make atom b-mbs, chemical warfare, Thalidomide children, drugs.... and let us not forget that they are often wrong, such as Einstein thinking that the universe was our galaxy at one time. I wonder what they will be wrong about in the future, what we take for granted now. So don't polish your ego too much old man.
How's that bus doing? You're the one who eventually calls faith, faith, but wrapped it up in other words.... now what were they,.. hmmm

You just don't get it, science it always incomplete, which is quite different than wrong. Wrong is when you have been shown a better and more logical conclusion and rather than embracing it reject it because of an a priori bias, that is the egotism of the religionist.

Robert.Evans · Nov 30, 2014

Nowhere Man said:
Of course. Even natural is all that made up ideology that sources from your head.

But that means you have everything natural coming from something that is natural! Do you not see a problem with that? What then is this magical natural? Sounds like a god to me

It's called living matter and is easily observed and documented unlike some skydaddy that has no real comparisons as far as what's objective and what's not. There's a huge difference with ideological musings and the natural world that remains indifferent to what's fabricated inside the mind.

In a deeper sense of the word, there is no such thing as matter.
As for the comical 'skydaddy' that shows your level or argument, somewhere in the basement I think..

There is a huge difference to spiritual discernment and someonw blind who thinks they know. That is the real ''musing''.

Sapiens · Nov 30, 2014

Robert.Evans said:
... Even a child knows you need something to get something, that is cause and effect. ...

And every child know that quantum mechanics makes no sense.

Robert.Evans · Nov 30, 2014

Midnight Rain said:
Why do you assume it was intelligence that formed from the beginning?

What exists just ''IS''. What is within it is awareness, which develops, what is later known as the 'feminine' side of this awareness. It is that which separates off and becomes the Image to the Source. God creates through word, therefore intelligence, and it works in a fractal repetitive way, so it is seen in us, and, to some degree, we can get an understanding on what God then is. Neat eh?
This is the answer to what he was doing before the first day, and why everything takes so long to develop, as it follows what has gone before. It is just soooooo neat!!!

Sapiens · Nov 30, 2014

Robert.Evans said:
I would say that if he walks out of the room with a Rolex, it is incumbent on you to show how someone does it when there was not one in there in the first place..... haha

But you don't walk out of the room with any sort of watch or even any indirect evidence, you can't even tell anyone what time it is.

NulliuSINverba · Nov 30, 2014

Serenity7855 said:
There is nothing that can be known that is unknown to God. An example is free agency. He cannot know what you are going to decide before you make the descision.that is pre-destination and an enemy to the plan of redemption.

Your assertion that God cannot discern future decisions isn't supported by The Scripture:

John 13:10-11 said:
Jesus answered, "Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

Jesus knew who would betray him? What about Judas' free will? What happened to that?

Please feed John 13:10-11 into your discombobulated Personal Theology Machine and let me know what answer it spits out.

God can not tell the future as it would affect free agency and thwart the plan of salvation. No doubt God must have anticipated what Eve might have done, there was no certainty, he practiced faith

John 13:10-11 doesn't say that Jesus "had faith" that Judas would betray him. It says that he knew. Clearly, Judas had not betrayed him yet. Do you sense any tension here?

Please reconcile these two seemingly exclusive propositions:

1.) Jesus knew Judas would betray him in the future.
2.) Judas had free will in the matter.

Item #1 comes directly from the Bible. Item #2 is apparently your own personal assertion.

I suspect that you'll try to weasel out the dog door of "Judas-Was-Acting-As-The-Agent-Of-God's-Plan" (which still wouldn't support the notion of free will) but will await whatever spin you care to offer up.

Elsewhere, the Bible clearly shows that God is willing to suspend free will when it suits him:

Exodus 7:3-4 said:
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites.

Doesn't this suggest that free will is a plaything that The Lord is free to diddle around with as he sees fit?

It doesn't mater what Pharaoh might have done if left alone. God felt compelled to rig the experiment.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 said:
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

God sends delusions to people and influences them to believe lies? What chance does anyone have if The Good Lord is willing to game the system?

...

Again, please reconcile free will with:

1.) Jesus' foreknowledge that Judas would betray him.
2.) God messing with Pharaoh's mind.
3.) God sending delusions to people so that they will believe lies.

Serenity7855 · Nov 30, 2014

walmul said:
Serenity, Jesus died. in 1980 a building contractor accidentally stumbled upon a grave on the outskirts of Jerusalem. his find has been studied more than most archeological discoveries relating to the Christian religion. The Christian religion and the country in which these finds are discovered have to confirm authenticity. This find was the grave of Jesus and some close family members. The evidence compiled is more than in most authenticated discoveries, yet neither Israel nor the Christian religion wants to authenticate or even discuss the possibility. If they do it will be the end of Christianity and the honour of the Israelite nation. Your religion is based on the resurrection of the man Jesus, which never happened!

I am assuming that you are referring to the Talpiot Tomb. Now an atheist might take that archeological find and use it as proof that this is indeed Jesus and his family tomb. All the names fit with those of his family, after all. They seem to think that the ressurection requires Jesus to take His own bones with him. It in no way effects christianity. Sadly, the bones were removed from the ossuaries and we're buried is a specially prepared place, so DNA will never be able to be used to verify anything.

The documentary I have linked to below is very interesting as it gives us the possibility and improbability of it being the tomb of Jesus and an ossuaries bearing the inscription "Jesus son of Joseph" actually being that of Jesus. One such refutation is the fact that all the names on the Ossuaries were the most common names of the day so the combination of the names would not be unique. Maria, or Mary as we know it, was the name of more then 50% of women of that day. This finding actually rocked my faith for about a year until I researched it and watched this documentary. Today that tomb has been sealed by the Israel Antiquities Authority and now contain Torah's that cannot be used because of damage or errors.

A team of experts have meticulously investigated the ossuaries and their inscription to see if they are those of Jesus' family. They believe that the ossuary of Jesus had been inscribed a long time after the death of Jesus as it bore a different writing style. The results of the investigation was inconclusive. I think you have been mis informed. Watch the documentary to get an and curate account of the Talpiot Tomb.

veoh - Lost Tomb Of Jesus

NulliuSINverba · Nov 30, 2014

Serenity7855 said:
... the bones were removed from the ossuaries and we're buried is a specially prepared place ...

Speak for yourself, please.

NulliuSINverba · Nov 30, 2014

Robert.Evans said:
haha.... I think that was to believers not heathens

Oh? It's only to be taken as an admonition for believers to wash the feet of other believers? So Jesus was urging the faithful to preach to the choir?

I see.

Serenity7855 · Nov 30, 2014

NulliuSINverba said:
Speak for yourself, please.

I was repeating the words of the Israel Antiquities Authority actually. I am not a Jew.

NulliuSINverba · Nov 30, 2014

Robert.Evans said:
If you truly ''don't know'' then why are you arguing?

Because you're claiming to know ... when you cannot possibly know. You can only make wild claims.

sounds like you know to me.

Again, I'm not the one asserting Knowledge With Certainty. That's you.

If I said I did not know, and truly wished to know something, I would shut up and listen.

I'm not the one pretending that there is a known answer to why we're here. That's your approach. And it isn't that I don't want to know ... it's that your answer (Gawdunnit®) fails to satisfy. If your answer was convincing, you wouldn't continue to find the door unceremoniously slammed in your face.

It is you who have zero evidence for your blind faith....

You're equating "I Don't Know" with "blind faith?

we have the proof of the inner witness making us a living witness testfying to all things. We see then what is without which you do not... so you are mistaken my friend.
''supernatural is a poor word to use.... it suggests that there is a difference or separation, which, though in some ways there is, there is not as far as this argument is concerned.

That spewage is complete gobbledygook.

- "Inner witness" is not proof. It is just another empty claim.
- Claiming that there is no difference between the natural and the supernatural and then reversing yourself to claim that "in some ways there is" reeks of special pleading.

God has intelligence.

Prove it.

1.) You've failed to demonstrate that there is a god of any sort (to say nothing about whether it's the Judeo-Christian god or not) and ...
2.) You've failed to demonstrated that this alleged god possesses intelligence.

All you've done so far is make wild assertions interspersed with snarky remarks about paper bags.

He does not need luck; intelligence evolves, yours mine his.

God's intelligence evolves?

Please square that assertion against what the Bible has to say about God's Unchanging Nature:

"God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind ..." ~ Numbers 23:19

"I am the LORD, and I do not change. That is why you descendants of Jacob are not already destroyed." ~ Malachi 3:6

"Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow." ~ James 1:17

We are here, as a universe, because we were cast out as unclean. It has little to do with luck. Intelligence is involved. I think that is a concept you do not like going off all your other comments

---> God created the universe before there was sin. True or false?

If true, your assertion "we are here, as universe, because we were cast out as unclean" appears to be utter nonsense.

If false, then it appears that you're asserting that God created an unclean universe.

I wonder which is correct?

...

AGAIN: Please explain how your belief in an arbitrarily created universe is different from "luck & magic."

So far, you're doing a perfectly terrible job of drawing a distinction.

NulliuSINverba · Nov 30, 2014

Serenity7855 said:
I was repeating the words of the Israel Antiquities Authority actually. I am not a Jew.

Where do you get the nerve to assert that we're "buried in a specially prepared place?"

Sapiens · Nov 30, 2014

Robert.Evans said:
If you truly ''don't know'' then why are you arguing? sounds like you know to me. If I said I did not know, and truly wished to know something, I would shut up and listen. So I find your comments wanting.
It is you who have zero evidence for your blind faith.... we have the proof of the inner witness making us a living witness testfying to all things. We see then what is without which you do not... so you are mistaken my friend.
''supernatural is a poor word to use.... it suggests that there is a difference or separation, which, though in some ways there is, there is not as far as this argument is concerned.
God has intelligence. He does not need luck; intelligence evolves, yours mine his. That brings about and is everything. That IS a good answer. Your luck and magic is not, nor the bag on your head (with the attached argument)

It is not that simple. We are here, as a universe, because we were cast out as unclean. It has little to do with luck. Intelligence is involved. I think that is a concept you do not like going off all your other comments

haha fine, I could say you have

It is better than ''Naturaldidit'' or ignoring the evidence and carrying on regardless with a bag on your head.

Are you sure you would know what it meant?

I don't need to 'go' for anything. I already have it... haha.
I love the word ''prove''. God proves not man.
It is proved to me as also a few other billion people..... that you choose to ignore. It is an easy argument for you if you are a materialist. Anything to do with the metaphysical you can ignore. But is that wise? What benefit do you have by doing that, what do you gain? Nothing! What you lost is life, which is a shame. The answer is within, not without. We only see what is without when he what is within. Your spiritual blindness stops you from seeing that, so no amount of looking for some physical explanation will answer it..... I think you know that.

Just because you don't even have a hypothesis concerning the correct answer does not mean that you do not know that a specific possibly answer is incorrect.

Twilight Hue · Nov 30, 2014

Robert.Evans said:
But that means you have everything natural coming from something that is natural! Do you not see a problem with that?

None whatsoever. You can easily observe nature everyday in that vernacular.

What then is this magical natural? Sounds like a god to me

No. Just an embellished view. That's all.

In a deeper sense of the word, there is no such thing as matter. [\QUOTE] Depends where ones attention is at the appropriate moment. ;0)

As for the comical 'skydaddy' that shows your level or argument, somewhere in the basement I think..
[\QUOTE]

Father in Heaven. Hmmm.....

There is a huge difference to spiritual discernment and someonw blind who thinks they know. That is the real ''musing''.

Click to expand...

That's fine. Your supposed to think like that. ;0)

Click to expand...

Ingledsva · Nov 30, 2014

Robert.Evans said:
''spamming''.... I used to like spam, don't eat it anymore... it's tinned meat.

I think this is a debate site for religion, so who is you think they are proselyting? Strange. Be pointless talking without meantioning your views, wouldn't it? Over the top reaction I think

As already pointed out - there is a difference between using a few Bible quotes to prove your point, and giving a sermon, or copy pasting a religious site, or posting pages of Bible verses to confuse everyone.

As to canned Spam, I used to eat it too (Hawaiians in my family.) Now I wonder how I ever ate it. I do however keep a couple cans of it in my speedboat locker, for emergencies. In Alaska you never know when you are going to have to duck into a sheltered cove, possibly for days, to weather a storm.

*

Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

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